The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

so why do you believe the first resurrection of Rev 20 involves a physical resurrection in order to escape coming into judgment?

I wrote the first resurrection relative to the millennium. It is not for the purpose of escaping judgment. The great tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and will reign with Christ a thousand years. Amil does not acknowledge those coming thousand years.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Amil also interprets all these end times time frames in the bible as metaphors.

 

[jeffweeder]

I wrote the first resurrection relative to the millennium. It is not for the purpose of escaping judgment.

As they are believers and born again, they have already escaped judgment according to Jesus in Jn 5.
John is in no way implying a physical resurrection facilitates not being hurt by the judgment (second death)
I do not know what else I can say to you

 

[WPM]

I find it hard to believe that after all these years Doug didn't know that.

i agree bro!

 

[WPM]

I wrote the first resurrection relative to the millennium. It is not for the purpose of escaping judgment. The great tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and will reign with Christ a thousand years. Amil does not acknowledge those coming thousand years.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Amil also interprets all these end times time frames in the bible as metaphors.



View attachment 48103

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wrote the first resurrection relative to the millennium. It is not for the purpose of escaping judgment.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Does this not indicate that having part in the first resurrection means the second death (lake of fire - Rev 20:14-15) has no power over you? Is the second death not judgment? The second death occurs when someone is cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:14-15, right? So, how does what you said line up with what Revelation 20:6 says?

Do you believe that someone can avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection? If so, how? This verse strongly implies that having part in the first resurrection is necessary in order to avoid the second death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As they are believers and born again, they have already escaped judgment according to Jesus in Jn 5.
John is in no way implying a physical resurrection facilitates not being hurt by the judgment (second death)
I do not know what else I can say to you

You are absolutely right and I see no effort from Doug to even try to understand your point. Is he afraid that if he makes an effort to understand your point then he might have no choice but to agree with it? Is that why he just ignores it? I think so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

He, of course, won't answer any of these questions. But honest people will acknowledge that the answer is "nowhere" to all of those questions. How can they expect us to take their understanding of Daniel 9 seriously when so many of the things they associate with it are not even mentioned anywhere in Daniel 9? Talk about a shaky doctrine. It's based entirely on speculation and assumptions with no clear scripture to support it at all.

 

[jeffweeder]

You are absolutely right and I see no effort from Doug to even try to understand your point. Is he afraid that if he makes an effort to understand your point then he might have no choice but to agree with it? Is that why he just ignores it? I think so.

The thought did cross my mind.

 

[jeffweeder]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Does this not indicate that having part in the first resurrection means the second death (lake of fire - Rev 20:14-15) has no power over you? Is the second death not judgment? The second death occurs when someone is cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:14-15, right? So, how does what you said line up with what Revelation 20:6 says?

Do you believe that someone can avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection? If so, how? This verse strongly implies that having part in the first resurrection is necessary in order to avoid the second death.

Amen.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear and heed what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes [the world through believing that Jesus is the Son of God] will not be hurt by the second death (the lake of fire).’

Rev 1
4 John, to the seven churches that are in [the province of] Asia: Grace [be granted] to you and peace [inner calm and spiritual well-being], from Him Who is [existing forever] and Who was [continually existing in the past] and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits that are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful and trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who [always] loves us and who [has once for all] freed us [or washed us] from our sins by His own blood (His sacrificial death)

— 6 and formed us into a kingdom [as His subjects], priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the power and the majesty and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. So it is to be. Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega [the Beginning and the End],” says the Lord God, “Who is [existing forever] and Who was [continually existing in the past] and Who is to come, the Almighty [the Omnipotent, the Ruler of all].”


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Through believing we already are of the first resurrection

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe that someone can avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection?

Yes, by being a Christian.

The rapture/resurrection will be before the great tribulation begins.

the rapture/resurrection event.
then the great tribulation, martyred saints.
then the Second Coming
then the resurrection of martyred great tribulation saints.
then the 1000 years on this present earth.

All those things are on my chart...

 

[Douggg]

I observe that Amil never talks about any of these end times time frames, even metaphorically. It is because Amil is an unworkable, irrational view.

 

[WPM]

He, of course, won't answer any of these questions. But honest people will acknowledge that the answer is "nowhere" to all of those questions. How can they expect us to take their understanding of Daniel 9 seriously when so many of the things they associate with it are not even mentioned anywhere in Daniel 9? Talk about a shaky doctrine. It's based entirely on speculation and assumptions with no clear scripture to support it at all.

Exactly. If he was to answer these Pretrib would crumble in pieces.

 

[Douggg]

Exactly. If he was to answer these Pretrib would crumble in pieces.

You yourself said that the Rapture could happen today. Which if it did, would be pretrib.

 

[WPM]

You yourself said that the Rapture could happen today. Which if it did, would be pretrib.

More nonsense. You are getting desperate.

Please do not talk on behalf of me or any other Posttribber. You do not have the slightest clue what we believe. You can't even show your own belief in God's word. That is why you continually avoid simple questions.

Your avoidance (and that of the rest of the Pretribbers) is destroying your doctrine. Pretrib is dead here. It just needs a decent burial.

 

[Douggg]

Please do not talk on behalf of me or any other Posttribber.

You are not posttrib because you don't believe in the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 as being the "trib" in these views.

pre-trib = pre - 7 year 70th week
mid-trib = mid - 7 year 70th week
post-trib = post- 7 year 70th week

 

[WPM]

You are not posttrib because you don't believe in the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 as being the "trib" in these views.

pre-trib = pre - 7 year 70th week
mid-trib = mid - 7 year 70th week
post-trib = post- 7 year 70th week

You really don't get it. It is pointless engaging with you. I am done.

You represent no one but yourself. Your views have been soundly exposed on here.

You avoid every inquiry that exposes your error.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We all believe that some scripture is symbolic and some is literal, so what are you even trying to say here?

The scripture you believe is symbolic, isn't symbolic.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm here to teach the lurkers the truth of scripture. There are most likely more of them than we might think. I was on a forum some time back which would show how many people were looking at the forum without being logged in and it was quite a few.

What do you think this thread teaches lurkers?

 

[CadyandZoe]

God revealed HIS Knowledge regarding mans Carnal Mind…Which is most useful, beneficial, for gathering knowledge, reasoning, making routine daily decisions about ALL kinds of things in daily life of man….
(What foods you like, or not, what kind of house you like, it’s furnishing, automobile, places to go, things to do, skills to learn….blah, blah…NOT Spiritual, NOT a concern to God if you buy your kid a pool or a baseball…)

HOWEVER…Having a relationship with God, a conversation with God, blessings from God, Gifts From God, Understanding From God, Praising God, Worshiping God, Thanking God…
IS on a Different Level….called SPIRITUAL.

Glory to God,
Taken

I agree with you in general. However, I wish to know how your POV informed your response to my post concerning logic and reason.

 

[CadyandZoe]

First of all, what difference does it make whether someone is Amil or Premil while refuting pretrib?

You honestly don't know?