The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please do not go there. Don't be hypocritical. Pretribbers (including yourself) have hurled the following venom. Is this from carnal minds or is this Christlike?





































































Here are those attackers:

@MA2444
@Taken
@rebuilder 454
@The Light

And guess what? Not one single apology from one of you! Shame on you Pretribbers!

Yep. Them criticizing us for insults and saying we have carnal minds is total hypocrisy. And none of ours have been nearly as nasty and hateful as the ones you posted from them. Never would we call them Satan or evil spirits or compare them to "gay guys" and "trans supporters" and all that evil nonsense that they have spewed.

 

[jeffweeder]

The first resurrection, which you referred to in your post, is not a general resurrection. But a resurrection specifically for the great tribulation martyrs who did not worship the beast, his image, nor took his mark, as it says in Revelation 20:4.

What you are suggesting is a small number of future tribulation saints who refuse the mark of the beast are worthy of not coming into the future judgment of the second death. What of the 1st century saints like Paul who were martyred, not to mention all those who have been killed for the faith down through the centuries?

JN 5 disagrees with you by saying the time is now for not coming into judgment for all who just sincerely believe and endure.
A physical bodily resurrection does not qualify anyone of escaping the judgment.

So, John is not contradicting himself in Rev 20 by what he taught in John 5 regarding not coming into the judgment.


That being said, all who do take the mark of the beast are destined for eternal judgment.
So, what would be the point of a further 1000 years when all those with the mark are doomed at the second coming while the Church is glorified?

Revelation 13:8
All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

 

[Douggg]

@WPM

I think in your opening post that if you said your were Amil, it would have been helpful. So others would know where you are coming from. And would result in less back and forth personal accusations.

My suggestion is that in future threads you start, simply state that you are Amil and don't believe in a thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth following His return.

 

[jeffweeder]

It is at the second resurrection that this present earth is destroyed, alluded to in Revelation 20:11.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

I addressed this already.
From post 1062

11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away].

35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

Happens at his coming right?


Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

Spiritual resurrection comes into view v24 and 25 for the born again.
Bodily resurrection comes into view in v28 and 29 for all whether good or bad, sheep or goat, wheat or tare all at the second coming.

 

[Douggg]

What you are suggesting is a small number of future tribulation saints who refuse the mark of the beast are worthy of not coming into the future judgment of the second death. What of the 1st century saints like Paul who were martyred, not to mention all those who have been killed for the faith down through the centuries?

I don't think the number of future great tribulation martyrs will be small, based on what it says in Revelation 7:9 of being a great multitude.

Christians like Paul will have his body resurrected at the time of the 1Thessalonains4:15-18 rapture/resurrection that will take place sometime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

Paul in his eternal glorified body, then several years later, will return with Jesus at Jesus's Second Coming, to rule and reign with Jesus on this present earth for 1000 years.

JN 5 disagrees with you by saying the time is now for not coming into judgment for all who just sincerely believe and endure.
A physical bodily resurrection does not qualify anyone of escaping the judgment.

John 5 is saying that when a person embraces Christ and the gospel of salvation, they move from judgment to eternal life.

Resurrection of a saved person's physical body is the redemption of that person's body. Hence the phrase - look up your redemption draws near. When the end times events begin to gel.

That being said, all who do take the mark of the beast are destined for eternal judgment.
So, what would be the point of a further 1000 years when all those with the mark are doomed at the second coming while the Church is glorified?

The 1000 years, to reign and rule on this earth with Jesus, is part of the rewards to the saints. It will be the fulfillment of many prophecies like the wolf lying down with the lamb. a time of universal peace throughout the world. God and His Christ will be glorified among the nations.

 

[WPM]

@WPM

I think in your opening post that if you said your were Amil, it would have been helpful. So others would know where you are coming from. And would result in less back and forth personal accusations.

My suggestion is that in future threads you start, simply state that you are Amil and don't believe in a thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth following His return.

We were talking about the trib here not the millennium. My focus was the error of Pretrib.

I am an Amil Postrib Idealist. I have never hid this. And there is no excuse to the venom emanating from Pretribbers in our direction. It is vicious. That has nothing to do with me being an Amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first resurrection, which you referred to in your post, is not a general resurrection. But a resurrection specifically for the great tribulation martyrs who did not worship the beast, his image, nor took his mark, as it says in Revelation 20:4.

You say that Revelation 20:4 refers to the first resurrection even though you believe a previous resurrection will have already occurred years earlier. That is just plain nonsense. Not only does your understanding of Revelation 20:4 not line up with your own anytime rapture/resurrection belief, but it doesn't line up with scripture at all.

Doug, do you never consult other scripture when you interpret scripture like Revelation 20:4? How does your understanding of Revelation 20:4 line up with other scripture? Not at all.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Doug, do you think we can trust Paul to have known what he was talking about when it comes to the resurrection of the dead? I know we can. So, let's not interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught. That's very important. Do you care about that?

So, what did Paul teach here? He taught that Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection. We should use this information to help interpret Revelation 20 instead of interpreting Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught.

So, what resurrection did Paul say was next in order? He said "they that are Christ's at His coming" after saying "in Christ shall ALL be made alive". So, he said that ALL who are in Christ will be resurrected at His second coming. But, you have only some of the dead in Christ being resurrected in Revelation 20:4 which you believe occurs at His second coming. So, why do you interpret Revelation 20:4 in such a way that blatantly contradicts what Paul taught?

Also, in your doctrine, the resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is actually the third resurrection and not the first! Christ's was the first. That is clear from 1 Corinthians 15:20, Acts 26:23 and other scripture. So, the resurrection at His coming, which you think occurs some time before Rev 20:4 occurs, is the second resurrection. So, if Revelation 20:4 was talking about a different resurrection occurring after those, then it would be the third resurrection. So, you calling it the first resurrection doesn't even agree with the fact that you have two resurrection unto bodily immortality (Christ's and one that occurs just before an "anytime rapture") occurring even before the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4.

So, seeing that "the first resurrection" is actually the third resurrection that occurs in your doctrine shows just how messed up your doctrine actually is.

Also, since you say only martyred Christians will have part in the first resurrection, when will the rest of the dead Christians be resurrected and where does scripture refer to their resurrection, which would be a fourth resurrection in your doctrine?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The Great Tribulation, mentioned in Matthew 24:20, refers to the suffering, affliction, and oppression of the Jewish people and the followers of Jesus. It began when King Herod persecuted Jewish followers of Jesus (Acts 12:1) and will end when the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, which signifies the rapture of the Church.

I think it's to do with the opression of the people of God = they who are worthy of God = Christ Jesus= the truly born again.

King Herod was of the Darkness of this world.

The Rapture ? some claim that the people of God will be taken out of this world ? and they go some other place or comback after the Fire.

I believe that the Rapture is a Spiritual point issue, in that it has to do with the Holy Spirit !
The Saints, worthy Christians who have passed away from the time of Christ Jesus coming and the OT Saints are not dead ? for their Spirit is in Heaven and when the Day comes, they come forth as one with the living now, this is done by the Holy Spirit !
When the Bible says taken up ? or Raptured ? or meeting the Lord in the Air ? that is Spiritual speeking ! it's all Spiritual comprehention that the worthy in God will all be on the same page then, Spiritual eyes opened, for the Holy Spirit will be as one as we will be all be as one.

I do not think that it will be the end of the world, but the end of this world, in that it will not be full of Deceptions and Delusions, for the Kingdom of God has come forth ! in Christ Jesus ! not that he comes in the flesh ! for that is what only the carnal or religious dupes want in fact ! for they are not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact for they are not truly born again nor Saved in fact.

Just saying, putting this forward. for food for though to start a debate maybe.

I do not belive that people are going to float up into the sky rapture, i see this as carnal nonsense. or that belivers will excape the Hell fire at all in fact, for we will all reap what has been sown in fact !

I know people who claim to be born again and all but they do wrong in fact, they do not abide in Christ Jesus at all, everything they do is carnal religious BS dead works ! so their works are as in as demand in wanting to bring Christ Jesus down again by their bad works ? Satanic works ! so as to bring on the Hell fire ! so as to speed that coming up !

Then they claim to have a get out of Jail free card, as they will not be dealt with in the Hell Fire ? for they will be raptured up before hand ! That means to me that they are gutless cowards at heart and have no Faith in the Holy Spirit at all, but a faith of this world, that means full of deceptions and delusions. they are of this world and they point to such workings. for they do not have the Holy Spirit at all, but they do have a Spirit of a religious dupe.

 

[Douggg]

You say that Revelation 20:4 refers to the first resurrection even though you believe a previous resurrection will have already occurred years earlier. That is just plain nonsense.

The Revelation 20:4 resurrection does not include a rapture.

The rapture/resurrection will be before the great tribulation begins.

the rapture/resurrection event.
then the great tribulation, martyred saints.
then the Second Coming
then the resurrection of martyred great tribulation saints.
then the 1000 years on this present earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@WPM

I think in your opening post that if you said your were Amil, it would have been helpful. So others would know where you are coming from. And would result in less back and forth personal accusations.

My suggestion is that in future threads you start, simply state that you are Amil and don't believe in a thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth following His return.

First of all, what difference does it make whether someone is Amil or Premil while refuting pretrib? None. So, this is silly.

Also, if people actually read his opening post, it's very clear that he is Amil. You apparently didn't read it or else I don't think you would have said what you did here.

Here is part of what he said in his opening post:

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Doug, who else but Amils believe that heaven and earth will pass away at the second coming of Christ? Who else but Amils would say "the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”? And who else but an Amil would then say "The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man"?

It was VERY clear from what he said in his post that he is Amil, so why would he need to explicitly say that in his post? That's just silly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Revelation 20:4 resurrection does not include a rapture.

What does that have to do with the points I made, which you ignored? It's not talking about a "first rapture", it's talking about "the first resurrection". Stay on topic, please. It's very interesting how you chose not to address the points I made in my post, Doug. How do you think that makes you look when you refrain from addressing straightforward points like I made in my post? In your doctrine, the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20:4 is actually the third resurrection in order in your doctrine. Christ's resurrection was the first. Do you agree? How can you not? Scripture explicitly teaches this.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Paul indicated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that next in order to be resurrected were the dead in Christ. You somehow have that resurrectoin occurring even before Revelation 20:4 occurs even though that references the FIRST resurrection. So, since, in your doctrine, two resurrections unto bodily immortality occur even before the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4, your doctrine has that as the third resurrection rather than the first resurrection. So, your doctrine is a complete mess and blatantly contradicts what Paul taught in 1st Corinthians about the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality. Do you not think much of Paul and his understanding of the resurrection of the dead, Doug? It seems so.

The rapture/resurrection will be before the great tribulation begins.

There's your second resurrection, assuming you don't foolishly try to deny that Jesus's resurrection was the first. Regardless, you somehow have this resurrection occurring even before the FIRST resurrection, which is just comical. It's ridiculous. It's a clear case of making scripture say whatever you want it to say.

the rapture/resurrection event.
then the great tribulation, martyred saints.
then the Second Coming
then the resurrection of martyred great tribulation saints.
then the 1000 years on this present earth.

When do you believe the dead in Christ who are not martyrs at the time when Revelation 20:4 occurs will be resurrected and where does scripture refer to their resurrection?

What about any saints who would deny during a supposed future 1000 years on earth or during Satan's little season? Where is their resurrection described in scripture?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We were talking about the trib here not the millennium. My focus was the error of Pretrib.

I am an Amil Postrib Idealist. I have never hid this.

That is very clear from what you said in your original post, but, not surprisingly, Douggg didn't catch that. If he actually read it at all.

And there is no excuse to the venom emanating from Pretribbers in our direction. It is vicious. That has nothing to do with me being an Amil.

Absolutely. Any insults that have come from us have been very tame in comparison. I would never call a fellow Christian "Satan" or an "evil spirit" or say that they are just like "gay guys" and those who support the LGBTQ agenda and so on. It's pure malicious hate coming from these guys. Against us, people who worship our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. They are totally out of line.

 

[jeffweeder]

John 5 is saying that when a person embraces Christ and the gospel of salvation, they move from judgment to eternal life.

so why do you believe the first resurrection of Rev 20 involves a physical resurrection in order to escape coming into judgment?

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

 

[jeffweeder]

The rapture/resurrection will be before the great tribulation begins.

Where did Jesus teach this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

so why do you believe the first resurrection of Rev 20 involves a physical resurrection in order to escape coming into judgment?

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

Right. Good point.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse suggests that having part in the first resurrection is the way that someone avoids the second death, which is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15), and the way that the second death has no power over you. So, does a person need to physically die and wait until they are bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have any power over them? Premil would have to answer yes to that question based on their interpretation of this verse.

But, we know that even NOW the second death has no power over us (Christians) and certainly no power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven now. So, we need to interpret Revelation 20 in light of all this, but premils don't do that. That's why Premil contradicts so much scripture. It tries to make the rest of scripture fit with its interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of the other way around. So, their approach to interpreting Revelation 20 is very faulty.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where did Jesus teach this?

Clearly, nowhere did He teach a rapture/resurrection "before the great tribulation begins". That blatantly contradicts what He taught here:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[jeffweeder]

I am an Amil Postrib Idealist. I have never hid this.

I find it hard to believe that after all these years Doug didn't know that.

 

[jeffweeder]

Right. Good point.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This verse suggests that having part in the first resurrection is the way that someone avoids the second death, which is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15), and the way that the second death has no power over you. So, does a person need to physically die and wait until they are bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have any power over them? Premil would have to answer yes to that question based on their interpretation of this verse. But, we know that even NOW the second death has no power over us (Christians) and certainly no power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven now. So, we need to interpret Revelation 20 in light of all this, but premils don't do that. That's why Premil contradicts so much scripture. It tries to make the rest of scripture fit with its interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of the other way around. So, their approach to interpreting Revelation 20 is very faulty.

Bingo

 

[jeffweeder]

Clearly, nowhere did He teach a rapture/resurrection "before the great tribulation begins". That blatantly contradicts what He taught here:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Lord is not an author of confusion by speaking of two comings for us without clearly telling us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find it hard to believe that after all these years Doug didn't know that.

I don't even believe that. Doug likes to play games with people to see how they will react.