The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Why not? The tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the Church. The coming of Christ sees the wrath of God being poured out on all the wicked and destroying them all. Pretrib constantly mixes these 2 up.

Have you ever considered the climatic detail that surrounds the last trumpet's blast?

Well I can finally agree with you. However, once we understand there are two raptures, your vendetta against the truth of the pretrib rapture goes up in smoke.

 

[The Light]

You keep making ridiculous claims like this, when the opposite is the truth. He is presenting truth, and you are presenting extra-biblical theories.

He just said he thinks it's ridiculous that the Word says that they were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered the ark.

 

[The Light]

Okay, I've had it with your nonsense and it's not worth my time dealing with it any longer. I have never, and would never, claim that scripture is wrong. If you're just going to lie about me then we're done. Have a nice life.

You claim that they were not eating and drinking until the day Noah entered the ark. The Word says different.

 

[The Light]

Ugh. What is wrong with you? This is a serious question. I explicitly told you that he and I believe that His second coming IS at the 6th seal and here you are trying to say that we don't believe that. Why do you contradict what we claim? Just because we don't share your understanding of what happens after that doesn't mean we claim that His second coming doesn't happen at that time. We believe it does! Okay? Don't tell us what we believe, we will tell you what we believe.

He told me that the second coming is at the 7th trumpet. Do I need to find the post for you?

Additionally you told me that the wrath of God occurs in one day.

What do you do with this five months?

Rev 9
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Your claims continually disagree with scripture.

 

[The Light]

Also, it seems a bit of a stretch, to say the least, to claim that we are still in the same generation that started in 1948. Since when does a generation last for at least 76 years?

Psalms 90
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

A generation of strength is 80 years according to the Word. And then THEY fly away. Second rapture.

Isn't it interesting how dispensationalists create new definitions for words when they need to in order to keep their doctrine afloat?

It's more interesting that you always attack and yet don't understand the Word.

It's similar to how they create a new definition for the word "after" in Daniel 9:26 that means "at the end of" instead of what the word actually means. They can't acknowledge that Jesus was "cut off" during the 70th week (after the end of the 69th week), so they create a new definition for the word "after" to make it fit their doctrine. Sad.

And yet the 69th week has not been fulfilled.

 

[MA2444]

It is refreshing for you to actually address (and keep to) Scripture. So thanks for that. It makes for more fruitful engagement.

However, I disagree with your interpretation. The desolation continues to the end - the consummation. There is nothing about Isreal being birthed as a nation. After all, they are apostate. They reject Christ. They therefore reject God. They are of their father the devil, not our God.

The big war that hurt the Jews so bad was WW II. . Just a few short years later Israel became a Nation again and out forth some leaves like in Matthew 24.

That brought to an end the first 69 weeks of years put upon Israel. It doesnt matter some people dont consider what Romans did to Jerusalem and the temple as part of the 70 weeks, so some have that wrong! They stopped their egegis of the book of Daniel too soon. We can do that but I'm sketchy about it today with some things in the air. I'll get to it when I can.

 

[WPM]

Well I can finally agree with you. However, once we understand there are two raptures, your vendetta against the truth of the pretrib rapture goes up in smoke.

Lol. How about showing us one rapture text that shows a trib after. You have ducked around this for long enough. You repeatedly stating it means nothing.

You also said you would tell us the length of the Trib.

 

[WPM]

The big war that hurt the Jews so bad was WW II. . Just a few short years later Israel became a Nation again and out forth some leaves like in Matthew 24.

That brought to an end the first 69 weeks of years put upon Israel. It doesnt matter some people dont consider what Romans did to Jerusalem and the temple as part of the 70 weeks, so some have that wrong! They stopped their egegis of the book of Daniel too soon. We can do that but I'm sketchy about it today with some things in the air. I'll get to it when I can.

This is all personal opinion. None of it is biblical. Give me Scripture.

 

[WPM]

He just said he thinks it's ridiculous that the Word says that they were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered the ark.

Not true. Quote it.

 

[WPM]

Psalms 90
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

A generation of strength is 80 years according to the Word. And then THEY fly away. Second rapture.


It's more interesting that you always attack and yet don't understand the Word.


And yet the 69th week has not been fulfilled.

Here we go. Pretribs keep moving the posts every time their claims are rendered null and void. A generation is stretched out from 40 to 50 to 70 to 80. Talk about manipulating Scripture.

 

[The Light]

Lol. How about showing us one rapture text that shows a trib after. You have ducked around this for long enough. You repeatedly stating it means nothing.

What are you talking about now?

The tribulation is OVER then the Lord comes at the 2nd coming for a harvest.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

You also said you would tell us the length of the Trib.

I absolutely did. I said if you could go three days without accusing me of believing in a 7 year tribulation I would tell you. You probably should look back at your posts...............you couldn't do it.

 

[WPM]

He told me that the second coming is at the 7th trumpet. Do I need to find the post for you?

Additionally you told me that the wrath of God occurs in one day.

What do you do with this five months?

Rev 9
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Your claims continually disagree with scripture.

The wrath of God is constantly upon the wicked. That is a current reality. The final wrath is total destruction. That comes at the one and only future coming of Christ. We are rescued before the final wrath.

 

[The Light]

Here we go. Pretribs keep moving the posts every time their claims are rendered null and void. A generation is stretched out from 40 to 50 to 70 to 80. Talk about manipulating Scripture.

Oh boy. Always the same. I'm just posting the scripture. And a couple of you keep disagreeing with the scripture. I can't help you learn how to read.

Psalms 90
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

 

[The Light]

The wrath of God is constantly upon the wicked. That is a current reality. The final wrath is total destruction. That comes at the one and only future coming of Christ. We are rescued before the final wrath.

Just words. Not supported by scripture.

Here is a coming of the Lord that is not the second coming. Or do you deny this scripture also?

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[WPM]

What are you talking about now?

The tribulation is OVER then the Lord comes at the 2nd coming for a harvest.

I have no idea what you are talking about.


I absolutely did. I said if you could go three days without accusing me of believing in a 7 year tribulation I would tell you. You probably should look back at your posts...............you couldn't do it.

It must be over 3 days. Lol. What are you hiding?

 

[WPM]

Oh boy. Always the same. I'm just posting the scripture. And a couple of you keep disagreeing with the scripture. I can't help you learn how to read.

Psalms 90
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

40 is a generation in Scripture. Hello! Most objective theologians know that. Check the importance of 40 in Scripture. We are not talking about an extended age as a special blessing. Israel is apostate. They are under the wrath of God. They are in rebellion. They reject Christ.

 

[WPM]

Very interesting! I have never thought about it like that. Probably because I would never think that Jesus would be described as an angel since He obviously is not an angel. But, the word translated as "angel" there (Greek: angelos) also means "messenger" and the word would have been better translated as "messenger" there. The description of the messenger certainly is reminiscent of Jesus and it referring to His voice sounding like a lion's roar reminds me of how Jesus is called "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (Rev 5:5). So, I agree that the passage is talking about Jesus! It fits Him perfectly, so that makes complete sense. It's always fun to learn new things. Thanks for sharing this.

He reveals Himself in Scripture before the cross in physical and angelic form. He is God! But He is greater than both.

Genesis 16:11-13: “the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Genesis 18:1-3: “And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

In Genesis 22:15 we see the Lord speaking from heaven. He is there described as an angel. We learn, “And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Genesis 32:24-32: “And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me … And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

Hosea 12:2-5 explains: “The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us. Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.”

Exodus 3:2-6: “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Judges 2:1: “And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Judges 6:12-15: “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house. And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Judges 13:21 says, "the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Isaiah 63:7-9 declares: “I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Revelation 10:1 affirms: “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

 

[Douggg]

From God's perspective not long. Just like from God's perspective He said 2000 years ago Jesus was coming soon.

Satan cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12 is the third woe identified what it is. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

In Revelation 9, the second woe, identified as the flesh tormenting locust creatures, last 5 months.

So, the time, times, half time in Revelation 12:14 is roughly 3 1/2 years.

3 1/2 years for the third woe would be compatible with 5 months for the second woe.

Revelation 12:6-17 is not talking about events that took place 2000 years ago, but events that will take place in the end times.

 

[WPM]

Satan cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12 is the third woe identified what it is. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

In Revelation 9, the second woe, identified as the flesh tormenting locust creatures, last 5 months.

So, the time, times, half time in Revelation 12:14 is roughly 3 1/2 years.

3 1/2 years for the third woe would be compatible with 5 months for the second woe.

Revelation 12:6-17 is not talking about events that took place 2000 years ago, but events that will take place in the end times.


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You have no idea. You can post what you've been taught on so many passages it is hard to take your posts serious. Revelation 11:12 says, “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past (the great battle); and, behold, the third woe (the last trump – the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ) cometh quickly.”

Verses 15 records the ushering in of eternity, we learn, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Christ at this juncture has put down all rebellion and has finally ushered in His eternal reign.”

The third woe is the 7th Trumpet and the destruction that accompanies it at the climactic second coming.

 

[Douggg]

To me, Paul clearly indicated that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" occurs immediately upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. He indicated that it occurs unexpectedly as a thief in the night, right? In that case, why would the unexpected "sudden destruction" not occur immediately upon the arrival of the day of the Lord instead of some time later after the day of the Lord has begun? That view completely takes away from the unexpected and sudden nature of the day of the Lord. So, please address this.

I think you are interpreting "sudden destruction" as meaning exclusively as death. But destruction has a broader meaning. It can mean the destruction of their homes. their jobs, their retirements, their social order, etc.

Of course, I will agree with you that the "sudden destruction" includes death on a broad scale. But I disagree that everyone will die during that time.

Right, but would you agree that the destruction Peter described in detail in direct relation to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night is the same "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul described in relation to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night? If so, how long after the initial arrival of the day of the Lord do you think that "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" will occur?

Peter in 2Peter2:3 was addressing two things.

1. verses 3 - 9 regarding scoffers making light that Jesus had not returned. And those same type of scoffers would be around in the last days.

2. verses 10 -17 that believers should be looking forward to new heavens and a new earth. And to keep hold of God's promises.

I think verse 10 is where you are getting the impression that the day of the Lord coming like a thief in night, results in the immediate destruction of the current heavens and earth.

But I don't think immediate destruction is what Peter is intending. I think Peter was emphasizing that the scoffers would be caught unware by the sudden beginning of the day of the Lord.

Peter did reference Paul's epistles in verse 15- 16. So accordingly, we should consider what Paul said about the beginning of the day of the Lord as Paul enlightened the Thessalonians about in 2Thessalonians2:3-4. Those 2 things.

1. the falling away.
2. the revealing of the man of sin by his action of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.