The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[MA2444]

I suggest leaving the jokes off from the content of your posts. It only invites reciprocation from the other poster. Which tends to spin things into back and forth series of personal emotional attacks.

Just present your rationale as to why you believe what you do. And in reciprocation, hopefully the other poster will respond in similar manner of why he or she believes their position.

And try to leave off using incite-ful words, like "absurdity" as used in the title of the thread, when possible.

Think of who Christians are eternal grateful to. So praise God and Jesus, but not in a way that downgrades other posters, our brothers and sisters in Christ, for their beliefs.

We are new creations in Christ. So all here should endeavor to act as such.

I suppose that's true. But I'm just used to talking to men like they talk to me.

 

[WPM]

post-trib tends to consider that the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15 as being the "last trumpet".

However, the other criteria for the timing of the rapture is that the world must be at ease, marrying and giving in marriage. Which would not match the great tribulation period, wnen the 7th trumpet sounds..

I consider what Paul said regarding the last trumpet - as being an expression - based on when the children of Israel during the Exodus, as they traveled through the wilderness, assembled themselves for that that day's march, did so according to a series of trumpets, with the last trumpet signaling all twelve tribes to start moving as one unit.

Why not? The tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the Church. The coming of Christ sees the wrath of God being poured out on all the wicked and destroying them all. Pretrib constantly mixes these 2 up.

Have you ever considered the climatic detail that surrounds the last trumpet's blast?

 

[WPM]

Israel has not done that yet, as a nation. It takes a great tribulation to shake them up enough to cry out to the Messiah! The Trib is mostly about Israel, His chosen people who rejected Him.

WW II took 1 out of 3 Jews off the earth. WW III (the great trib) will take 2 out of 3 off the earth. Dead. That's in scripture.

Read Scripture. Read history. Check out AD70.

This has already been long-fulfilled. Please address the biblical evidence.

Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

 

[WPM]

post-trib tends to consider that the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15 as being the "last trumpet".

However, the other criteria for the timing of the rapture is that the world must be at ease, marrying and giving in marriage. Which would not match the great tribulation period, wnen the 7th trumpet sounds..

I consider what Paul said regarding the last trumpet - as being an expression - based on when the children of Israel during the Exodus, as they traveled through the wilderness, assembled themselves for that that day's march, did so according to a series of trumpets, with the last trumpet signaling all twelve tribes to start moving as one unit.

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[WPM]

post-trib tends to consider that the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15 as being the "last trumpet".

However, the other criteria for the timing of the rapture is that the world must be at ease, marrying and giving in marriage. Which would not match the great tribulation period, wnen the 7th trumpet sounds..

I consider what Paul said regarding the last trumpet - as being an expression - based on when the children of Israel during the Exodus, as they traveled through the wilderness, assembled themselves for that that day's march, did so according to a series of trumpets, with the last trumpet signaling all twelve tribes to start moving as one unit.

When the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This proves that we are looking at recaps in Revelation. The last trump is the end of the world.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The chronological hypothesis in relation to the complete book of Revelation is defective in the extreme as, by its very nature, it must project chapters 11-22 into ‘the age that is to come’, as from this chapter on, time shall clearly be no more. If the dispensationalist is consistent, it must exclude the prophetic relevance of chapters 11-22 to the Church and mankind today or to any generation preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. In reality, the chronological theory capitulates at this juncture, like other similar readings, enjoying not even the remotest support. In fact, it undermines the very character and import of the book of Revelation which embodies a number of repeated cycles outlining God’s Sovereign dealings with both the righteous and the wicked. Dealings that include the great overall battle between good and evil, between Christ and Satan, the Church and its enemies.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the Second Coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

 

[MA2444]

Read Scripture. Read history. Check out AD70.

This has already been long-fulfilled. Please address the biblical evidence.

Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”...

Now wait a minute. That has to be the absolutely most reasonable post of yours that I have ever read so far. Your talking scripture and in the most beautiful neutral tone. A milestone in a way! Thank you for the effort! You must want me to answer you pretty bad huh? That's ok man. And I will to.

So if all that already happened in 70 Ad then we're living in the Millenium right now and Jesus is ruling from heaven. I've heard this preterist teaching and am well aware of it's shortcomings. So largely I disagree with what you said.

If we're in the millenium right now...take a look around you at the world. There is no way that satan is bound right now.

"1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

If Jesus was already there and talking to him, why did he ask Jesus when are you coming? The temple destruction by the romans in 70 ad was part of the 70 weeks that were put upon Israel for not knowing when He should appear. A lot of this is in Daniel's prophecies that explain the 70 weeks of Daniel. It was 62 weeks + 7 weeks and they are counted as prophetical years so 62+7=69 weeks And (per teachings) I earned that the 69 weeks was up on the exact date that Israel became a nation again. May 14, 1948

The Lord put 70 weeks of desolation upon Israel for not knowing the day of His arrival because the Prophet Daniel explained it all in so much detail that you can sit there with a calculator and figure the date exactly. There are certain considerations to take into account whie doing the math such as, the prophetical calandar is a 30 day calandar. So it's 360 days per year, Plus you have to add one year because there is no year zero.

I admit I didnt do all the math. I did some of it, but me and math dont get get along so well, lol. But what I did do matched right up with what he was teaching and he sure sounded like he knew al about it and has done all the math. So I have no reason to doubt him, or the word of God as written in Daniel. Daniel is the most prophetically accurate book in the bible. And Daniel wxplains things very well if you study it. It's a short book. I think I can show you if you let me.

 

[Douggg]

Why not? The tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the Church. The coming of Christ sees the wrath of God being poured out on all the wicked and destroying them all. Pretrib constantly mixes these 2 up.

The two greatest flaws of the pre-trib view are...

1. that the entire 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is "tribulation".
2. insisting the the rapture must happen pre-70th week.

 

[Douggg]

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

I hold the "no more delay" interpretation because when the 7th trumpet sounds it announces what the third woe will be to the inhabiters of the earth (from Revelation 8:13).

The only woe mentioned in the bible after the 7th trumpet is sounded in Revelation 11 is that of Revelation 12:12, Satan being cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The short time Satan will have left is the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

When talking about "chronology", the challenge is that of arranging all of the times frames of events into the correct placement to each other.

In the table I made, I list all of those time frames, as a reference. So when considering Revelation, where are you going to personally place those ?

 

[WPM]

Now wait a minute. That has to be the absolutely most reasonable post of yours that I have ever read so far. Your talking scripture and in the most beautiful neutral tone. A milestone in a way! Thank you for the effort! You must want me to answer you pretty bad huh? That's ok man. And I will to.

So if all that already happened in 70 Ad then we're living in the Millenium right now and Jesus is ruling from heaven. I've heard this preterist teaching and am well aware of it's shortcomings. So largely I disagree with what you said.

If we're in the millenium right now...take a look around you at the world. There is no way that satan is bound right now.

"1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

If Jesus was already there and talking to him, why did he ask Jesus when are you coming? The temple destruction by the romans in 70 ad was part of the 70 weeks that were put upon Israel for not knowing when He should appear. A lot of this is in Daniel's prophecies that explain the 70 weeks of Daniel. It was 62 weeks + 7 weeks and they are counted as prophetical years so 62+7=69 weeks And (per teachings) I earned that the 69 weeks was up on the exact date that Israel became a nation again. May 14, 1948

The Lord put 70 weeks of desolation upon Israel for not knowing the day of His arrival because the Prophet Daniel explained it all in so much detail that you can sit there with a calculator and figure the date exactly. There are certain considerations to take into account whie doing the math such as, the prophetical calandar is a 30 day calandar. So it's 360 days per year, Plus you have to add one year because there is no year zero.

I admit I didnt do all the math. I did some of it, but me and math dont get get along so well, lol. But what I did do matched right up with what he was teaching and he sure sounded like he knew al about it and has done all the math. So I have no reason to doubt him, or the word of God as written in Daniel. Daniel is the most prophetically accurate book in the bible. And Daniel wxplains things very well if you study it. It's a short book. I think I can show you if you let me.

Daniel 9:26-27 declares, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

This reading describes the final removal of the great outward center point of the old abolished Judaic system, through the destruction of the Jewish religious temple. This part of the prophecy has no time element. It is not said to be part of the 70 weeks. There is nothing in the wording of this scriptural phrase that requires the destruction of Jerusalem/the temple to occur within the seventy weeks. It was simply the inevitable consequence of the Jews rejection of their Messiah. Moreover, this confirms the fact that the desolation inflicted would continue “until the consummation,” to the time when every last enemy is put down – “unto the end of the war.”

The physical temple would remain rubble until the ending of wars and the return of Christ at the consummation.

Did Christ not fulfil every requirement demanded of Him reference atonement and substitution? Was it not God that made Jerusalem desolate for its overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23)? This event happened exactly 40 years after Calvary (within a generation, as predicted). The “desolation” is therefore not within the 70 weeks; the desolation is the consequence of what happened in the midst of the week – Calvary.

It was what was going on inside the temple that became an abomination and symbol of rebellion.

 

[WPM]

I hold the "no more delay" interpretation because when the 7th trumpet sounds it announces what the third woe will be to the inhabiters of the earth (from Revelation 8:13).

The only woe mentioned in the bible after the 7th trumpet is sounded in Revelation 11 is that of Revelation 12:12, Satan being cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The short time Satan will have left is the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

Revelation 12:5-11 declares: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (or ballo Strong’s 906), which accused them before our God day and night. And they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When was Satan cast out?

The answer is in the text. It is very simple and unambiguous: when He ascended up to heaven! When the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron … was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Satan was thus aptly described before his eviction as he “which deceiveth the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). This referred to the remit of his control. However, after Satan was banished from heaven a herald suitably announced “now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down.” Salvation had now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s ascent and victory safely secured that. As a result, the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism. The text testifies: “they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

• He is already judged – his fate is sealed.
• False accuser cast down.
• No more access to heaven.
• Knows his time is short.
• Doesn’t have anything on us anymore. Past, present, and future sin has been paid for.
• The militant Church is a resistance movement against Satan and his lies as they spread the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ.
• Satan’s playing field - the Gentile nations - is enlightened.
• The Gentiles are now without excuse.
• Believers now overcome Satan by the power of the blood of Jesus made personal in their life.

 

[The Light]

post-trib tends to consider that the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15 as being the "last trumpet".

However, the other criteria for the timing of the rapture is that the world must be at ease, marrying and giving in marriage. Which would not match the great tribulation period, wnen the 7th trumpet sounds..

Good point Douggg.

However, the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet of WRATH in the 7th seal. The great tribulation is over immediately before the 6th seal is opened.

But your point about marrying etc is a dandy.

 

[WPM]

your point about marrying etc is a dandy.

This is another self-defeating argument.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

 

[The Light]

This is another self-defeating argument.

Not really. They were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

In your scenario they would be eating and drinking until the flood came. Completely wrong.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

Problem is, you have the Day of the Lord happening at the 7th trumpet. The Day of the Lord is the day of His wrath. It is one year long. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest at the last trump and then the wrath of God begins.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The seed of the woman is the rapture at the second coming WHICH OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19,

You got it all wrong. The Day of the Lord occurs at the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and returns to heaven with the great multitude for the marriage supper.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the trumpets as it is Armageddon.

then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

There is no 7 years of tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that is about the people of Daniel.

They say peace and safety because the great tribulation is over..............Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest and world is cast into the wrath of God.

 

[Douggg]

When was Satan cast out?

The war between Michael and his angels vs Satan and his angels in Revelation 12:7-9 has not been fought yet. Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven as a result of that battle.

Once cast down to earth, Satan's time will be short - a time, times, half time, i.e. roughly 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 12 has the 7 years in it. Revelation 12:6 (the 1260 days) is the first half. Revelation 12:14 (the time, times, half time) is the second half.

This can be verified by the crowns on the seven heads of the dragon, indicating that the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 is fulfilled to begin the 7 years. King 7 is the little horn. He comes to power right before the 7 years begin.

None of the ten horns have crowns in Revelation 12 because king 7 the little horn has not become the beast king (king 8) yet. Those ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, because the little horn person will have become the beast king with 42 months left in that chapter.

 

[WPM]

The war between Michael and his angels vs Satan and his angels in Revelation 12:7-9 has not been fought yet. Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven as a result of that battle.

Once cast down to earth, Satan's time will be short - a time, times, half time, i.e. roughly 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 12 has the 7 years in it. Revelation 12:6 (the 1260 days) is the first half. Revelation 12:14 (the time, times, half time) is the second half.

This can be verified by the crowns on the seven heads of the dragon, indicating that the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 is fulfilled to begin the 7 years. King 7 is the little horn. He comes to power right before the 7 years begin.

None of the ten horns have crowns in Revelation 12 because king 7 the little horn has not become the beast king (king 8) yet. Those ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, because the little horn person will have become the beast king with 42 months left in that chapter.

Please address my post. You tend to avoid the rebuttals of others. That is necessary (i believe) because they expose your position.

 

[WPM]

Not really. They were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

In your scenario they would be eating and drinking until the flood came. Completely wrong.


Problem is, you have the Day of the Lord happening at the 7th trumpet. The Day of the Lord is the day of His wrath. It is one year long. Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest at the last trump and then the wrath of God begins.


The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The seed of the woman is the rapture at the second coming WHICH OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL.


You got it all wrong. The Day of the Lord occurs at the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and returns to heaven with the great multitude for the marriage supper.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the trumpets as it is Armageddon.


There is no 7 years of tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel, but that is about the people of Daniel.

They say peace and safety because the great tribulation is over..............Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest and world is cast into the wrath of God.

Please address my post, if you can. Avoidance does not advance your position, quite the opposite.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok. I apologize for that. It is not my intent to offend you. It can be frustrating posting detailed biblical analyzes, whereupon you just post a chart (which i never read), as a rebuttal. I also do not do links. To then dismiss others arguments as deficient because they do not present a chart is unacceptable and annoying. That comes across as prideful.

I agree completely. If his preferred form of communication is by way of charts, so be it. He can't expect everyone else to feel the same way. Honestly, it's utterly ludicrous for him to expect others to create charts. Some are simply not even capable of it and some just don't have the time or desire to do it. And some would rather spend 50 bucks on other things besides spending it on Photoshop software just to appease one person. A vast majority of people can communicate their understanding of scripture just fine without charts. Like you, I have no interest in seeing people's charts and no interest in clicking on links to other sites when I am here on this site.

I will delete what I wrote to SJ, i will ask him to do the same. I know that is not his intent.

I deleted my response to that post as well. Sorry, @Douggg

I have no intention of making things personal, but certain people (we all know who they are - not you, Douggg) always try to turn things personal when people like you and I try to actually exegete scripture rather than only give our opinions on it.

 

[The Light]

Please address my post, if you can. Avoidance does not advance your position, quite the opposite.

What a total crock.

I addressed your post by telling you that you think that when Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet that is the second coming.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You have no clue that the second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Here's the proof, that you seem incapable of understanding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not really. They were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK. Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood.

You need to give up this nonsense already. It isn't fooling anyone. To try to claim that they stopped eating and drinking 6 days before the flood is complete lunacy. Do you know what happens to people if they don't eat or drink for 6 days? A vast majority of them would've already been dead even before the flood came. Where does scripture indicate any nonsense like that?

In your scenario they would be eating and drinking until the flood came. Completely wrong.

That is exactly what Jesus indicated. And why wouldn't they have been doing that? They didn't believe the flood was coming until it actually came, so they would have no reason to stop doing what they normally did right up until the flood came. This is Common Sense 101 and you're failing the class.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What a total crock.

I addressed your post by telling you that you think that when Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet that is the second coming.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You have no clue that the second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Here's the proof, that you seem incapable of understanding.

I just have to be honest here. You are making a complete fool of yourself. Do you somehow not know that he agrees with this? Look at what it says. It says at that point "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?". Clearly, His wrath is about to come down right then and there and that is what he and I both believe! Hello? You're not paying attention and arguing with a straw man. What a waste of time. Why do you suppose heaven is silent at the 7th seal? Because Jesus and His armies have left heaven at that point.

The difference in our views is that we believe His wrath comes down on all His enemies at that point (not a year later or whatever you think) and they are all killed on that day. That is what is indicated in passages like this:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you not think this describes the same event as Matthew 24:29-31?