The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

You and Spiritual Israelite are making posts to each other - talking about other posters which you should be doing in private messages to each other - not as posts in the thread.

My charts are about biblical issues - in hopes of getting the thread back to biblical discussion, not gossip between you and Spiritual Israelite.

Doug, not everyone cares about looking at charts. I think most people here cannot even follow some of what is on your charts if they even look at them at all.

We need to use words to explain what we believe. You can use charts to supplement what you're saying if you want. But, you made 2 posts earlier which only contained your charts and nothing else. I don't believe that is a valid way of discussing scripture and I feel certain that a vast majority of people here would not be interested in just going back and forth with someone by just posting charts.

Imagine a forum like that where people just posted charts back and forth. I think even you would agree that would be ridiculous. But, if someone ever decided to create a forum like that, then I'm sure you would probably enjoy it. I think even making 2 posts in this thread where you included nothing but your charts is just not a proper way to have a discussion on a forum like this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

post-trib tends to consider that the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15 as being the "last trumpet".

However, the other criteria for the timing of the rapture is that the world must be at ease, marrying and giving in marriage. Which would not match the great tribulation period, wnen the 7th trumpet sounds..

Doug, what did Paul say would happen unexpectedly to the kind of people who are "at ease, marrying and giving in marriage"? This is what he said will happen to them unexpectedly while they are "at ease".

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul was not specific about what would cause the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape", but Peter was.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You say there is a supposed great tribulation period (lasting for years, I assume?) following the rapture, but where is that described in these passages? Instead, what is described as happening once Jesus comes as a thief in the night and the rapture occurs, is global destruction. And it indicates that the destruction accompanies His coming as a thief in the night. So, please explain how your doctrine lines up with what these passages teach. Please give me your interpretations of these passages. Thanks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why not? The tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the Church. The coming of Christ sees the wrath of God being poured out on all the wicked and destroying them all. Pretrib constantly mixes these 2 up.

Have you ever considered the climatic detail that surrounds the last trumpet's blast?

This is spot on. A major problem with the pretrib doctrine is not differentiating between a spiritual time of tribulation before Christ returns and the wrath of God that comes down on the day He returns. This leads them to accuse us post-tribs of believing that we will go through God's wrath, which, of course, we do not believe at all.

 

[Douggg]

Please address my post. You tend to avoid the rebuttals of others. That is necessary (i believe) because they expose your position.

In your post #410, you had Satan cast out of heaven at the time Jesus ascended to heaven after his death and resurrection.

However, the text says Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, after the 1260 days in verse 12:6, and because of a war between Michael and his angels vs Satan and his angels.

Those things are still future. The heaven being referred to that the war will take place is the second the heaven, not the third heaven.

Satan was cast out of the third heaven long long ago, when he first rebelled and sought worship for himself.

I also explained to you in my post #414 that the 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9 is in Revelation 12, verified by the crowns on the 7 heads on the dragon.

-----------------------------------------

Also please try to reference what post # of yours that you are talking about.

In your post #441 to The Light, you made a similar comment that he did not address the content of your post.

 

[Douggg]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul was not specific about what would cause the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape", but Peter was.

Paul in the verse above was not specific about "what" would trigger the sudden destruction, I agree. But Paul did indicate in that verse "when" - as being at the start of the day of the Lord.

Then, 2Thessalonians2:4, Paul informs the Thessalonians, who were troubled thinking the day of the Lord had already started - not to be worried because it will not start until the two things....

1. the falling away
2. the man of sin revealed by his action of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

----------------------------------------------------
Peter's reference to the destruction of this present heaven and earth and the works therein - in a nutshell, the point Peter was making is not to get too attached to the things of this world because they are all going to get destroyed.

Jesus made a similar statement - that we should store up treasure in heaven, where it would not decay or be stolen.

[my comment] How do we do we store up treasure in heaven? By what we do for the cause of Christ while we are in these earthly bodies. Do you agree with that, generally speaking ?

 

[MA2444]

Daniel 9:26-27 declares, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

This reading describes the final removal of the great outward center point of the old abolished Judaic system, through the destruction of the Jewish religious temple. This part of the prophecy has no time element. It is not said to be part of the 70 weeks. There is nothing in the wording of this scriptural phrase that requires the destruction of Jerusalem/the temple to occur within the seventy weeks. It was simply the inevitable consequence of the Jews rejection of their Messiah. Moreover, this confirms the fact that the desolation inflicted would continue “until the consummation,” to the time when every last enemy is put down – “unto the end of the war.”

The physical temple would remain rubble until the ending of wars and the return of Christ at the consummation.

That's where Daniel needs more attention and exegis before drawing a conclusion.
Jesus being crucifed was indeed the Messiah being cut off (they killed Him) and the bad guys came and destroyed the city and the Temple to rubble. and the temple will remain rubble until the ends of the war...and (look closely at this)...unto the end of the Desolations are determined...(What's that mean?). Looking at history Israel was not a nation after that. Her people were scattered (Desolate) and it reamined that way until May 14th 1948.

Now learn the parable of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32-34
32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation[j] will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.../NLT

Israels leaves began to sprout on May 14th 1948. Now be aware that when you see these things know that summer is near (time is growing short). It is This generation that will not pass until all has taken place. Our generation.

The Desolation of 70 weeks (of years) Daniel was seeking to understand by books (Jeremiah), and he was praying about it and that's when Gabriel came to Daniel and explained it. It pretty takes an exegis of Daniel 9 to understand it. And perhaps some in Jeremiah.

 

[The Light]

You need to give up this nonsense already. It isn't fooling anyone. To try to claim that they stopped eating and drinking 6 days before the flood is complete lunacy. Do you know what happens to people if they don't eat or drink for 6 days? A vast majority of them would've already been dead even before the flood came. Where does scripture indicate any nonsense like that?

You seem to always claim scripture is wrong. Gee this scripture doesn't make sense to you so it must be wrong.

Here is where scripture indicates that.
Matthew.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

So, Jonah got swallowed by a whale and was spit out 3 days later.

So what really happened according to you??

That is exactly what Jesus indicated. And why wouldn't they have been doing that? They didn't believe the flood was coming until it actually came, so they would have no reason to stop doing what they normally did right up until the flood came. This is Common Sense 101 and you're failing the class.

I like common sense. Common sense should tell you the scripture is correct whether it makes sense to you or not.

 

[The Light]

I just have to be honest here. You are making a complete fool of yourself. Do you somehow not know that he agrees with this? Look at what it says. It says at that point "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?". Clearly, His wrath is about to come down right then and there and that is what he and I both believe! Hello? You're not paying attention and arguing with a straw man. What a waste of time. Why do you suppose heaven is silent at the 7th seal? Because Jesus and His armies have left heaven at that point.

And yet neither of you realize that the second coming is at the 6th seal.

The difference in our views is that we believe His wrath comes down on all His enemies at that point (not a year later or whatever you think) and they are all killed on that day. That is what is indicated in passages like this:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you not think this describes the same event as Matthew 24:29-31?

It absolutely DOES NOT describe the same event of the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

This is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. It occurs at the 6th seal and is a harvest. Jesus remains in the clouds and then all righteous go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This proves that we are looking at recaps in Revelation. The last trump is the end of the world.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Very interesting! I have never thought about it like that. Probably because I would never think that Jesus would be described as an angel since He obviously is not an angel. But, the word translated as "angel" there (Greek: angelos) also means "messenger" and the word would have been better translated as "messenger" there. The description of the messenger certainly is reminiscent of Jesus and it referring to His voice sounding like a lion's roar reminds me of how Jesus is called "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (Rev 5:5). So, I agree that the passage is talking about Jesus! It fits Him perfectly, so that makes complete sense. It's always fun to learn new things. Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days. Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai” 'Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Great post. I only quoted this much of it because I couldn't get my post to be under 10,000 characters otherwise.

But, I would like to point out one thing about Revelation 10:6. Whether Revelation 10:6 is referring literally to "time no longer" or "no more delay" doesn't really make any difference because other things that are said about what happens at the seventh trumpet indicate that the end of time comes at the sounding of the seventh trumpet as well. So, whether that verse is referring explicitly to "time no longer" or that there would be no more delay before time ends doesn't really make any difference. I'll explain what I mean, so please don't respond yet before reading my explanation first.

The following verses show the things that will happen when the seventh trumpet sounds:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, here is the list of things that will happen when the seventh trumpet sounds (listed in the order they are mentioned, but not in chronological order since that is irrelevant because time will have ended at this point):

• The mystery of God is finished as He had declared to his servants the prophets.
• The kingdom(s) of this world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and of his Christ at which point God the Father shall reign forever.
• The 24 elders worship God the Father (God Almighty) and indicate He has taken His great power and begun to reign at that point.
• God's wrath has come
• The dead will be judged.
• God rewards His people.
• God will destroy those who destroyed the earth

The mystery of God finishes at the seventh trumpet? That reminds me of this:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I think the mystery of God being finished at the seventh trumpet means there are no more things to occur in the realm of time after that. Everything prophesied will have happened at that point and it will all be finished. Nothing left to happen besides eternity and nothing left to reveal. Everything, including time itself, will be finished at that point. We will be made immortal that point and be ushered in to eternity.

Another thing to notice is that it talks about God the Father reigning forever once the seventh trumpet sounds. Some might think "Wait, hasn't He already been reigning before that"? They miss that God the Father handed all authority and the keys to His kingdom, so to speak, to His Son after His resurrection and ascension (Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, etc.).

Paul taught that Jesus will be delivering the kingdom that God the Father gave to Him back to the Father when He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Paul gives no indication here whatsoever that there is any period of time between when Christ comes and "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" as premils imagine. The book of Revelation's description of the seventh and last trumpet confirms that there will be no time in between. Premils not only do not interpret Revelation 20 in light of the rest of scripture, but not even in light of what is taught in the rest of the book of Revelation.

Notice that Paul said Jesus must reign (the Greek indicates He was reigning at that time and must continue to reign) until He has put all enemies under his feet, including death. The last enemy to be defeated or destroyed is death. When will that happen? Scripture tells us! All we have to do is continue reading a bit further in 1 Corinthians 15 to find that out.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There it is. The last enemy, death, will be destroyed, defeated and "swallowed up in victory" at the last trumpet! This places Christ's second coming and "the end" when Jesus delivers His kingdom to the Father, as Paul referenced in 1 Cor 15:22-24, as occurring at the last trumpet. This matches up perfectly with Revelation 11:15-18 which has God the Father beginning to reign at the sound of the seventh trumpet.

Finally, the other things mentioned as occurring at the seventh trumpet all go hand in hand. Whether it's talking about God's wrath and Him destroying His enemies at the judgment or talking about His wrath in the form of physically destroying His enemies when Christ returns is not specified there. It could be referring to both. It doesn't really matter.

What is clear is that the great white throne judgment occurs just after the seventh trumpet sounds because it says at that point it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". And that is described here:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This obviously occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season), so that places the timing of the sounding of the seventh trumpet AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season).

When you exegete scripture like this and take ALL of it into consideration, it proves that amillennialism is true.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And yet neither of you realize that the second coming is at the 6th seal.

Ugh. What is wrong with you? This is a serious question. I explicitly told you that he and I believe that His second coming IS at the 6th seal and here you are trying to say that we don't believe that. Why do you contradict what we claim? Just because we don't share your understanding of what happens after that doesn't mean we claim that His second coming doesn't happen at that time. We believe it does! Okay? Don't tell us what we believe, we will tell you what we believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem to always claim scripture is wrong.

Okay, I've had it with your nonsense and it's not worth my time dealing with it any longer. I have never, and would never, claim that scripture is wrong. If you're just going to lie about me then we're done. Have a nice life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul in the verse above was not specific about "what" would trigger the sudden destruction, I agree. But Paul did indicate in that verse "when" - as being at the start of the day of the Lord.

Then, 2Thessalonians2:4, Paul informs the Thessalonians, who were troubled thinking the day of the Lord had already started - not to be worried because it will not start until the two things....

1. the falling away
2. the man of sin revealed by his action of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Yes, those things have to happen first before the day of the Lord arrives.

Now, let's please talk about that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" which will occur on the day of the Lord some time after the falling away has begun and man of sin is revealed.

To me, Paul clearly indicated that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" occurs immediately upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. He indicated that it occurs unexpectedly as a thief in the night, right? In that case, why would the unexpected "sudden destruction" not occur immediately upon the arrival of the day of the Lord instead of some time later after the day of the Lord has begun? That view completely takes away from the unexpected and sudden nature of the day of the Lord. So, please address this.

Peter's reference to the destruction of this present heaven and earth and the works therein - in a nutshell, the point Peter was making is not to get too attached to the things of this world because they are all going to get destroyed.

Jesus made a similar statement - that we should store up treasure in heaven, where it would not decay or be stolen.

Right, but would you agree that the destruction Peter described in detail in direct relation to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night is the same "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul described in relation to the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night? If so, how long after the initial arrival of the day of the Lord do you think that "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" will occur?

[my comment] How do we do we store up treasure in heaven? By what we do for the cause of Christ while we are in these earthly bodies. Do you agree with that, generally speaking ?

Yes, I do, but what does this have to do with the topic we're discussing here?

 

[WPM]

In your post #410, you had Satan cast out of heaven at the time Jesus ascended to heaven after his death and resurrection.

However, the text says Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, after the 1260 days in verse 12:6, and because of a war between Michael and his angels vs Satan and his angels.

Those things are still future. The heaven being referred to that the war will take place is the second the heaven, not the third heaven.

Satan was cast out of the third heaven long long ago, when he first rebelled and sought worship for himself.

I also explained to you in my post #414 that the 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9 is in Revelation 12, verified by the crowns on the 7 heads on the dragon.

-----------------------------------------

Also please try to reference what post # of yours that you are talking about.

In your post #441 to The Light, you made a similar comment that he did not address the content of your post.

Once again, you ignore the timing, and add your own faulty narrative.

You totally ignore the fact the text shows that that Satan is banished from heaven after Christ (the man child) ascends up into heaven. Why? He has lost his seat of accusation - as the penaltyfor sin has been paid.

It does not say "Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, after the 1260 days in verse 12:6, and because of a war between Michael and his angels vs Satan and his angels."

The woman flees into the wilderness fulfilling the 2nd half of the 70th week. This occurred 2000 years ago.

 

[Douggg]

It does not say "Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, after the 1260 days in verse 12:6, and because of a war between Michael and his angels vs Satan and his angels."

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

How long is that short time ?

 

[WPM]

That's where Daniel needs more attention and exegis before drawing a conclusion.
Jesus being crucifed was indeed the Messiah being cut off (they killed Him) and the bad guys came and destroyed the city and the Temple to rubble. and the temple will remain rubble until the ends of the war...and (look closely at this)...unto the end of the Desolations are determined...(What's that mean?). Looking at history Israel was not a nation after that. Her people were scattered (Desolate) and it reamined that way until May 14th 1948.

Now learn the parable of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32-34
32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation[j] will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.../NLT

Israels leaves began to sprout on May 14th 1948. Now be aware that when you see these things know that summer is near (time is growing short). It is This generation that will not pass until all has taken place. Our generation.

The Desolation of 70 weeks (of years) Daniel was seeking to understand by books (Jeremiah), and he was praying about it and that's when Gabriel came to Daniel and explained it. It pretty takes an exegis of Daniel 9 to understand it. And perhaps some in Jeremiah.

It is refreshing for you to actually address (and keep to) Scripture. So thanks for that. It makes for more fruitful engagement.

However, I disagree with your interpretation. The desolation continues to the end - the consummation. There is nothing about Isreal being birthed as a nation. After all, they are apostate. They reject Christ. They therefore reject God. They are of their father the devil, not our God.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

How long is that short time ?

From God's perspective not long. Just like from God's perspective He said 2000 years ago Jesus was coming soon.

 

[WPM]

You seem to always claim scripture is wrong. Gee this scripture doesn't make sense to you so it must be wrong.

You keep making ridiculous claims like this, when the opposite is the truth. He is presenting truth, and you are presenting extra-biblical theories.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

How long is that short time ?

No one knows. It's an indeterminate amount of time. And it is a limited amount of time because it will end and Satan knows that, which is why he is angry while "having great wrath".

You need to put more effort into studying scripture. You only scratch the surface and don't dig any deeper. Do you ever consult any Hebrew and Greek resources to see the meaning of the words translated in English?

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos (Strong's G3641) and is used in this verse:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (oligos) are chosen.

We know that there aren't literally only a few people who are chosen, right? Revelation 7:9 refers to a multitude of saved people. So, clearly, the word does not refer to a literally small number, but rather to a relatively small or limited number. There are not literally few people chosen, but relatively few compared to the many or multitude of people who are called.

So, the "short time" that Satan had after he was cast out of heaven when Jesus ascended there was a limited amount of time rather than a literally short amount of time.

If you compare the Greek word translated as "short" in Rev 12:12 to the Greek word translated as "little" in reference to Satan's "little season" in Revelation 20, you will see that they are not the same words. In Revelation 20, the Greek word translated as "little" means a literally short or small amount, so Satan's little season is a literally short amount of time even though the amount of time is not specified. His "short time" of referenced in Revelation 12:12, however, is not a literally short amount of time and has been almost 2,000 years so far.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is refreshing for you to actually address (and keep to) Scripture. So thanks for that. It makes for more fruitful engagement.

However, I disagree with your interpretation. The desolation continues to the end - the consummation. There is nothing about Isreal being birthed as a nation. After all, they are apostate. They reject Christ. They therefore reject God. They are of their father the devil, not our God.

Also, it seems a bit of a stretch, to say the least, to claim that we are still in the same generation that started in 1948. Since when does a generation last for at least 76 years?

Isn't it interesting how dispensationalists create new definitions for words when they need to in order to keep their doctrine afloat? It's similar to how they create a new definition for the word "after" in Daniel 9:26 that means "at the end of" instead of what the word actually means. They can't acknowledge that Jesus was "cut off" during the 70th week (after the end of the 69th week), so they create a new definition for the word "after" to make it fit their doctrine. Sad.