The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Exactly. It's like someone thinking they've made a great movie just because it has some nice special effects while at the same time it has a terrible story with many plot holes.

Agreed! He hides behind them because he cannot prove his doctrine by hard Scripture. His defense is his charts. They are all fizz and bubble. He cannot address the numerous holes in his argument.

 

[grafted branch]

As an analogy of why make a timeline chart of events, when there is a construction project to build a building, a set of specifications (words) and a set of drawings (charts are nothing more than drawings) are made that go together that guide the construction contractor on how to build the building.

I don’t agree with very many of your positions but I can appreciate the charts you make, they are helpful to some of us. I can pinpoint where our disagreements are much quicker when looking at your chart.

Which is easier to understand words or charts/drawings?

Exodus 26: 15And thou shalt make boards for the tabernacle of shittim wood standing up. 16Ten cubits shall be the length of a board, and a cubit and a half shall be the breadth of one board. 17Two tenons shall there bein one board, set in order one against another: thus shalt thou make for all the boards of the tabernacle. 18And thou shalt make the boards for the tabernacle, twenty boards on the south side southward. 19And thou shalt make forty sockets of silver under the twenty boards; two sockets under one board for his two tenons, and two sockets under another board for his two tenons. 20And for the second side of the tabernacle on the north side there shall be twenty boards: 21And their forty sockets of silver; two sockets under one board, and two sockets under another board. 22And for the sides of the tabernacle westward thou shalt make six boards. 23And two boards shalt thou make for the corners of the tabernacle in the two sides. 24And they shall be coupled together beneath, and they shall be coupled together above the head of it unto one ring: thus shall it be for them both; they shall be for the two corners. 25And they shall be eight boards, and their sockets of silver, sixteen sockets; two sockets under one board, and two sockets under another board.

 

[Davidpt]

Terrible analogy. No chart is necessary to understand scripture. That is a fact. However, the drawings construction contractors use are necessary in order to build their buildings.

Speaking of something like that, but not to venture OT here since I have no desire in this thread to discuss and debate this subject, so, food for thought only.

Numbers 35:4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.

Imagine trying to follow those instructions coherently if one is taking a thousand to mean what Amils typically take it mean throughout the Bible.

When you said a thousand cubits, what exactly are you meaning, though? 2000 cubits? 3000 cubits? What???

 

[Davidpt]

I don’t agree with very many of your positions but I can appreciate the charts you make, they are helpful to some of us. I can pinpoint where our disagreements are much quicker when looking at your chart.

Which is easier to understand words or charts/drawings?

Exodus 26: 15And thou shalt make boards for the tabernacle of shittim wood standing up. 16Ten cubits shall be the length of a board, and a cubit and a half shall be the breadth of one board. 17Two tenons shall there bein one board, set in order one against another: thus shalt thou make for all the boards of the tabernacle. 18And thou shalt make the boards for the tabernacle, twenty boards on the south side southward. 19And thou shalt make forty sockets of silver under the twenty boards; two sockets under one board for his two tenons, and two sockets under another board for his two tenons. 20And for the second side of the tabernacle on the north side there shall be twenty boards: 21And their forty sockets of silver; two sockets under one board, and two sockets under another board. 22And for the sides of the tabernacle westward thou shalt make six boards. 23And two boards shalt thou make for the corners of the tabernacle in the two sides. 24And they shall be coupled together beneath, and they shall be coupled together above the head of it unto one ring: thus shall it be for them both; they shall be for the two corners. 25And they shall be eight boards, and their sockets of silver, sixteen sockets; two sockets under one board, and two sockets under another board.

Obviously, words would be easier to follow than a drawing unless the drawing was like a floor plan and that you were skilled in reading floor plans. But if you simply drew what it is supposed to look like when it is finished, how would that be helpful? That would be like showing a carpenter a pic of a finished house, then telling him to build that same exact house based on the pic rather than using floor plans to build it instead.

 

[Douggg]

My charts are more than lines and numbers, but have words on them and scriptural references. The charts show organization of events.

 

[grafted branch]

Obviously, words would be easier to follow than a drawing unless the drawing was like a floor plan and that you were skilled in reading floor plans. But if you simply drew what it is supposed to look like when it is finished, how would that be helpful? That would be like showing a carpenter a pic of a finished house, then telling him to build that same exact house based on the pic rather than using floor plans to build it instead.

Well, obviously not everyone likes drawings or charts but for a carpenter to build using only the words in Exodus 26, it would take some time. If I was given that task, I would first read the directions and draw out what each board would look like.

And if a set of drawings were available that could show each piece with its measurements along with different stages of assembly along with an assembled finished product that would be extremely helpful. Come to think of it that’s what most products have that are “assembly required”.

 

[Douggg]

 

[WPM]

My charts are more than lines and numbers, but have words on them and scriptural references. The charts show organization of events.



View attachment 47544

You cannot show us 1 single rapture passage followed by a 7 year trib or any tribulation. You are forced to twist and manipulate multiple Scripture and make them into some type of convoluted extra-biblical theory. This is what the cults do. This is just like Mormonism.

 

[Douggg]

You cannot show us 1 single rapture passage followed by a 7 year trib or any tribulation.

I am not trying to. I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory.

But the post-trib view is eliminated , not possible, because people will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out.

And by what the one single passage of 1Thessalonians5:9 says.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Douggg]

This is just like Mormonism

Mormonism is based on the book of Mormon. I don't believe in the book of Mormon, nor Mormonism.

 

[WPM]

I am not trying to. I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory.

But the post-trib view is eliminated , not possible, because people will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out.

And by what the one single passage of 1Thessalonians5:9 says.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.




View attachment 47548

Why promote this error if it is not in the Bible. This is ridiculous! I will save your quote.

 

[Davidpt]

I am not trying to. I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory.

But the post-trib view is eliminated , not possible, because people will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out.

And by what the one single passage of 1Thessalonians5:9 says.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.




View attachment 47548

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.



Where do you see in the text God's wrath being poured out during any of this?

 

[WPM]

I am not trying to. I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory.

But the post-trib view is eliminated , not possible, because people will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out.

And by what the one single passage of 1Thessalonians5:9 says.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.




View attachment 47548

As per normal, I addressed this in great detail above, you totally ignored it. You have to. It forbids Pretrib. I will repost.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return.

After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught you (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.

 

[WPM]

Mormonism is based on the book of Mormon. I don't believe in the book of Mormon, nor Mormonism.

Your doctrine is as valid and legit as that book.

 

[Keraz]

But the post-trib view is eliminated , not possible, because people will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out.

This is your biggest error. [Apart from the false idea of a rapture to heaven itself]
In 1 Thess 5:1-3; Paul is not referring to the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, but to the Sixth Seal; the one Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.
Proved by how it will be the Day which comes unexpectedly, as the glorious Return will not be a surprise; heralded by a great trumpet blast and the heavens opened, Rev 19:11 Jesus DOES NOT Return 'as a thief'! Such stupidity to even think that!

 

[Douggg]

Why promote this error if it is not in the Bible. This is ridiculous! I will save your quote.

Yes, quote me as saying...

"I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory."

 

[Douggg]

Your doctrine is as valid and legit as that book.

So what are you claiming that the book of Mormon says about the timing of the rapture?

The Mormons believe in a post-trib rapture just like you do. You have just become an LDS.

 

[MA2444]

You need to abandon these ridiculous charts that you have invented. You also need to burn your Left Behind novels and pick up the Bible.

Just not the book of Daniel though, right? Lol

 

[Douggg]

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the

great tribulation > Jesus returns

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

 

[Douggg]

What about a scenario such as this? 5 ppl including you make a chart involving the same events on a timeline except none of you are coming to the same conclusions pertaining to the timeline of events. Does that not at least prove charts can contain errors since all of you can't be right if not all of your timeline events are in agreement with one another? What makes your chart correct but not one of these other 4 instead, that asuming someone's timeline events is correct? Is it because, in your mind you possess greater chart making skills than these other 4, therefore, the one that makes the better looking charts has to be the one that is automatically correct?

To make a comparison, the different charts would have to be shown and what is information is on each.