The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Just not the book of Daniel though, right? Lol

Give your evidence in Daniel. Surely you are able to quote and exegete one passage, instead of making your usual wild unsubstantiated extra-biblical statements.

 

[WPM]

So what are you claiming that the book of Mormon says about the timing of the rapture?

The Mormons believe in a post-trib rapture just like you do. You have just become an LDS.

They are Premil. All the Cults are.

 

[WPM]

Yes, quote me as saying...

"I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory."

Can you address the many Scriptures above in my post (and the Op) that forbid your teaching. Are you even able to rebut? Are you able to exegete Scripture? Or is your life consumed with making questionable charts that contradict Scripture?

 

[Douggg]

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

No, wrong deduction. The sudden destruction will be during the great tribulation, that will shortly follow the saying "peace and safety".

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

 

[WPM]

No, wrong deduction. The sudden destruction will be during the great tribulation, that will shortly follow the saying "peace and safety".

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

This is where you and your Pretrib brethren are confused. The tribulation is not the wrath of God. Anyway, the Church has always been in tribulation. So there is no such thing as a 7 year trib. That previous post demolishes everything you are saying here. Sudden destruction destroys all the wicked, as in Lot and Noah's day. You have no rebuttal to that.

 

[Douggg]

This is where you and your Pretrib brethren are confused. The tribulation is not the wrath of God. Anyway, the Church has always been in tribulation. So there is no such thing as a 7 year trib. That previous post demolishes everything you are saying here. Sudden destruction destroys all the wicked, as in Lot and Noah's day. You have no rebuttal to that.

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

 

[MA2444]

Give your evidence in Daniel. Surely you are able to quote and exegete one passage, instead of making your usual wild unsubstantiated extra-biblical statements.

I did that in the other thread and you responded with that's wild unsubstantiated extra biblical nonsense. But if you want to see it again, it's in the other thread. You respond the same way to everything. SO like I told you before I aint typing it out for you again. You can go look at it and give a real response if you think you got it in you..? I doubt it but oh well...

 

[WPM]

I did that in the other thread and you responded with that's wild unsubstantiated extra biblical nonsense. But if you want to see it again, it's in the other thread. You respond the same way to everything. SO like I told you before I aint typing it out for you again. You can go look at it and give a real response if you think you got it in you..? I doubt it but oh well...

What is new? That is your usual response to every request. You have nothing. If you had hard Scripture, you would have no difficulty presenting it. There is nothing to refute. This starts to get old after a while. Notwithstanding, the only reason I am pursuinng anything with you is for those watching on. It exposes the error of Pretrib.

 

[Douggg]

This is where you and your Pretrib brethren are confused. The tribulation is not the wrath of God. Anyway, the Church has always been in tribulation. So there is no such thing as a 7 year trib. That previous post demolishes everything you are saying here. Sudden destruction destroys all the wicked, as in Lot and Noah's day. You have no rebuttal to that.

The sudden destruction begins when the day of the Lord begins.

I presented to you this basic sequence of events. but not in chart form, but a simple single line.

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

Then I asked you this question. Which you have not been able to answer.

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

So I will answer it.

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord is when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, the 2Thessalonians2:4 act. It will be totally unexpected by them who up to that time will have thought he was the messiah.

And what shortly follows is God's wrath poured out in the great tribulation.

 

[Keraz]

The sudden destruction begins when the day of the Lord begins.

I presented to you this basic sequence of events. but not in chart form, but a simple single line.

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

Then I asked you this question. Which you have not been able to answer.

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

So I will answer it.

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord is when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, the 2Thessalonians2:4 act. It will be totally unexpected by them who up to that time will have thought he was the messiah.

And what shortly follows is God's wrath poured out in the great tribulation.

This is wrong,
When are we told about the great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath? In Revelation 6:12-17; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Which will happen years before the AC desecrates the Temple. Obviously the new Temple must be built first.

The trigger for that Day to happen, will be an attack on Israel with nuke missiles. As Zechariah 6 informs us and Jeremiah 49:35-37 tells us the result.

 

[jeffweeder]

The sudden destruction begins when the day of the Lord begins.

acts 2
20
‘The sun shall be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.

2Thess 2
2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

His coming and our Catching away

2Pet 3
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

His coming, our caching away and the passing of this heaven and earth, like a thief (suddenly) in a twinkling of an eye.


2 Peter 3:18
but grow [spiritually mature] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory (honor, majesty, splendor), both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Amen

 

[Douggg]

When are we told about the great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath? In Revelation 6:12-17; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Which will happen years before the AC desecrates the Temple. Obviously the new Temple must be built first.

The sixth seal is the appearance of the sign of the Son of Man in heaven near the end of the great tribulation. It will signify that the time of the wrath of the Lamb on behalf of the martyred great tribulation saint of the fifth seal has come.

Is not the beginning of the day of the Lord, when God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation.

----------------------------------------------------------------

keras, make a basic sequence of events, but not in chart form, in simple single line, like this - but events as you see them to take place.

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

 

[MA2444]

What is new? That is your usual response to every request. You have nothing. If you had hard Scripture, you would have no difficulty presenting it. There is nothing to refute. This starts to get old after a while. Notwithstanding, the only reason I am pursue anything with you is for those watching on. It exposes the error of Pretrib.

Like you said, if I posted the scriptures for you...there is nothing to refute! I know you hold this position so why waste the time typing when is you will say s Refute refute it's wrong.

Proverbs 18:13
13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him..../KJV

This talking down to pretribbers seems obsessive with you. How many threads have you started about the illogic of pretrib, how dumb pretribbers are and so forth...

And I've heard the rumour that you are a Pastor. I dunno if it's true. But if so, then what is the point you are trying to make to the people here? Dont be a pretribber? Dont watch for Jesus? That seems like the tone of your posts & threads. But why would you do that?

Tell me why I shouldnt be watching for my Lord, Jesus? Or tell me what is your point really supposed to be?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you address the many Scriptures above in my post (and the Op) that forbid your teaching. Are you even able to rebut? Are you able to exegete Scripture? Or is your life consumed with making questionable charts that contradict Scripture?

The next time he actually exegetes scripture will be the first time.

 

[MA2444]

The next time he actually exegetes scripture will be the first time.

So is that your short term memory failing you or maybe you just didnt see it? It's in the other thread the Galielean wedding thread by Jericho.

 

[rwb]

I can do that and I shall do it, but will you even understand it? Will you even try to understand it. Some things are not stated explicitly in the Bible but they become explicit when one reads enough of the text to get the big picture. For example:

Little Susy sure did want an ice cream. Her mom said she had to pay for her treats herself out of her allowance money. Susy had waited all week long and all she could think about was a Fudgescicle! And today was Allowance day! So she took her .25 cents and got on her bike to accomplish that task! (Ok so the story is old back from when ice cream used to be a quarter, Lol). So off goes suzy down the street...

Where was Suzy going to? It's never explicitly stated in the story, but for those high IQ people (100 Lol) it is explicit where Suzy was going. But if you have a 60 IQ, well...you dont get it. But it doesnt say explicitly where she was going on her bike so that cant mean she's going to the Ice Cream shop! And you wont get it.

What did I just do? I said implicitly that your competance is in question. See the difference? They when you & your wife take the stand, your words make it explicit that you have very little comprehension. So in a way, I already know the answer that you & her will give to my proof of a pretrib rapture in scripture so why even bother? You prolly wont even read it but respond with names and blahblahblah your wrong because I say your wrong, and me saying that proves it! (It doesnt). Nevertheless, some truth needs to be written into this thread so I'll try.

It's called the doctrine of Imminency. This means that Jesus could return at any moment. There is no prophetic scriptures which need to come to pass before Jesus comes for His Bride.

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.
25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.

26 “So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!
27 For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man[e] comes.
28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.[f].../NLT

V23 says we dont have to go look for him when He comes to rapture the church, here He is! There He is! Lies. He will come so fast and it will be over so fast that (many will wail).
V24 They will be putting on demonstrations of the AC's power as God. Look what I can do! And they will be supernatural exploits and will deceive many people.
V25 says...Don't say I didnt warn you!!
V26 & 27 say it will happen as fast as lightning, and boom it's over. I'm gone.
V28 compares how, when we see vultures circling we know a carcass is nearby, so when the rapture happens, you will know that the end is near.

There's going to be a lot of fence sitters left behind and they will know they were wrong about the rapture and their need to have been ready. And suddenly these people will become passionate about the Lord and not be fence sitters any more.

Tow are in the field, one is taken and the other left. Two women at the mill, one taken, one left. If the rapture happens post trib, where are they left behind at?

Holding to a post trib view creates contradictions in scripture. I've list some before and you just ignore them, offering no explaination about what certain verses mean if it isnt a pretrib rapture.

Once Christ comes the second time to gather His people to Himself, giving them immortality and incorruptibility, what would be the purpose for those left behind continuing to be alive on this earth? Does Scripture tell us some of them will still also be changed and given immortality and incorruptibility with those who have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air? Why spare any of them since Scripture tells us those who are left behind with this earth shall NOT be saved? Why would God prolong for one thousand more years to bring the new heaven and new earth down from heaven as His glorious bride, since none will be made perfect until the COMPLETE number has been saved? That already happened when the saints shall be bodily caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Once that number is complete, the opportunity for the unsaved to have everlasting life through Christ will be over!

Hebrews 11:32-40 (KJV) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It is only the spirits of men justified through the blood of Christ before death that have been made spiritually perfect when they ascended to heaven as spiritual body of believers, where they now wait with Christ until the fullness of the body of Christ is complete. These justified spirits of saints shall return with Christ when He returns, and then they and every saint still alive at Christ's coming again shall be changed from mortal physical body to immortal and incorruptible physical body raised from the dead or changed in a moment and twinkling of eye.

Hebrews 12:23-29 (KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[rwb]

Don't try and turn around what I wrote. You demanded scriptural description of the shocking after affects of the rapture. I said that there are none. You were not satisfied with that answer, and demanded again that I give scriptural description of the shocking after affects.

I gave you one example of the two persons in the car, one taken, one left.... resulting in a car crash. Which I said car crashes are not in scripture, although they happen every day. So what I say about there not being any scriptural description of the shocking after affects of the rapture remains true.

The effects on earth after every believer is caught up to meet the Lord in the air will be sudden as the fire of God's wrath shall come suddenly upon this earth burning up every living being left behind. Those left behind won't have more time to consider their fate. Believing more time shall be given this sin cursed, destined for destruction earth, at the second coming of Christ is without biblical merit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sudden destruction begins when the day of the Lord begins.

Peter showed what will cause the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

How long do you suppose the sudden destruction that will come as a thief in the night that Peter described will last and how many mortal people do you think will survive it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So is that your short term memory failing you or maybe you just didnt see it? It's in the other thread the Galielean wedding thread by Jericho.

This shows again your inability to discern what you are reading. I wasn't talking about you there, I was talking about Douggg. If you actually followed the discussion closely, you would have seen that. He doesn't exegete scripture at all, he just shows his ridiculous charts and thinks he has proven something by doing that.

 

[rwb]

No, wrong deduction. The sudden destruction will be during the great tribulation, that will shortly follow the saying "peace and safety".

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

That depends on whether you're talking about the beginning of the Day of the Lord with the first advent of Christ come to earth a man? Or are you talking about the final Day of the Lord when Christ shall return the second time in wrath to gather together His saints, and send down the fire of God's wrath upon this earth and all left upon it?