The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul indicated that the biggest signs of Christ's coming when the rapture occurs is that there will be a mass falling away from the faith and the man of sin would be revealed first before that.

Paul in those verses was comforting the Thessalonians, who were thinking that the day of the Lord (Christ) had begun and that they had missed the rapture. See verse 2 in red above.

Paul explained to them the day of the Lord would not begin until...
1. the falling away (from believing Jesus is the messiah) happens first.
2. and the man of sin revealed by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood (the transgression of desolation act)

In 1Thessalonians5:9-10, the rapture is before the day of the Lord begins.


On my anytime rapture view chart, I added the notation in red. The falling away will be because some Christians will think that the Jews were right all along, and the person anointed the King of Israel following the Gog/Magog event is the real messiah instead. Which that person will initiate what will be a false messianic age, with the world saying "peace and safety.

I hope this clears it up for you. (please note I have not called anyone here liars or other demeaning accusations, simply because there is some disagreement over the timing of the rapture and some differing understanding of what the text of bible means in certain passages)

 

[WPM]

Paul in those verses was comforting the Thessalonians, who were thinking that the day of the Lord (Christ) had begun and that they had missed the rapture. See verse 2 in red above.

Paul explained to them the day of the Lord would not begin until...
1. the falling away (from believing Jesus is the messiah) happens first.
2. and the man of sin revealed by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood (the transgression of desolation act)

In 1Thessalonians5:9-10, the rapture is before the day of the Lord begins.


On my anytime rapture view chart, I added the notation in red. The falling away will be because some Christians will think that the Jews were right all along, and the person anointed the King of Israel following the Gog/Magog event is the real messiah instead. Which that person will initiate what will be a false messianic age, with the world saying "peace and safety.

I hope this clears it up for you. (please note I have not called anyone here liars or other demeaning accusations, simply because there is some disagreement over the timing of the rapture and some differing understanding of what the text of bible means in certain passages)



View attachment 47539

You need to abandon these ridiculous charts that you have invented. You also need to burn your Left Behind novels and pick up the Bible.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Davidpt]

David, the great tribulation will not result in everyone dying like in the flood (except for Noah and his family).

The eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage indicates that the world will be at ease when Jesus comes for the rapture.

During the great tribulation, the world will not be at ease.

The flood lasted 150 days (Genesis 7:24)
The great tribulation will last 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12)

Douggg, why do you choose to interpret Matthew 24 in such a way that you have Jesus all confused and all the place in the text?

Can you not see that once He gets to verse 29 that He is at that point finished with the subject pertaining to great tribulation, and that He has moved on to a new subject altogether?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Look what you are doing here. Instead of accepting as of verse 29 that Jesus is entirely finished with the subject pertaining to great tribulation, you have Him still focusing on it. And if that's not bad enough, look what you are doing with the following text.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


You have Jesus revisiting a subject He already moved on from earlier, meaning as of verse 29. You have these verses involving the beginning of great tribulation even though Jesus clearly moved on from that subject pertaining to great tribulation beginning back in verse 29.

You make the same mistake Preterists make concerning verse 34. They have that meaning the first century though Jesus already moved on from that subject a long time ago. Why would the timeline of events throughout the Discourse not be something coherent, but something all over the place instead? Why isn't Jesus allowed to move on from one subject so that He can then focus on the next chronological subject? Maybe the prophets in the OT were all over the place like that at times, but why would Jesus need to be if the idea is to shed light on some of these things the OT prophets wrote about?

 

[Douggg]

You need to abandon these ridiculous charts that you have invented. You also need to burn your Left Behind novels and pick up the Bible.

I think the Left Behind books are based on a pre-trib rapture view. My chart is based on the anytime rapture view, i.e. anytime before the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

Do you have any timeline charts that you have made that fits the events surrounding the rapture, how they fit together ?

 

[Douggg]

Can you not see that once He gets to verse 29 that He is at that point finished with the subject pertaining to great tribulation, and that He has moved on to a new subject altogether?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

It does not say the great tribulation of those days for a reason. The reason is that the great tribulation is not over in that verse.

You make the same mistake Preterists make concerning verse 34. They have that meaning the first century though Jesus already moved on from that subject a long time ago.

Everything in Matthew 24, from verse 15-31 is still future, unfulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul in those verses was comforting the Thessalonians, who were thinking that the day of the Lord (Christ) had begun and that they had missed the rapture. See verse 2 in red above.

Paul explained to them the day of the Lord would not begin until...
1. the falling away (from believing Jesus is the messiah) happens first.
2. and the man of sin revealed by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood (the transgression of desolation act)

Yes, and Paul used the phrase "the day of the Lord (Christ)" to refer back to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him", which is an obvious reference to this:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, Paul called this day when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs (which he referenced again in 2 Thess 2:1) "the day of the Lord". He called it that in 2 Thess 2:2 as just a shortened way of referring to "His coming, and our being gathered to Him". His wrath also will come down that day as he described shortly after these verses I quoted in 1 Thess 5:2-3. It's unfortunate that a chapter break was placed after 1 Thess 4:18 because it can give people like you the false impression that Paul changed the topic in 1 Thess 5:1 even though he did not. He first talked about what will happen to believers on the day Jesus returns and then he talked about what will happen to unbelievers on that day. So, 1 Thesalonians 4:13-5:11 is one narrative about the day Jesus will return.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-10, the rapture is before the day of the Lord begins.

How are you coming to this conclusion, keeping in mind that Paul related both Christ's coming in wrath and the rapture to the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 4:14-17? In other words, he indicated that both the rapture and His wrath will occur on the same day. This idea that Jesus will come down from heaven for the rapture one time and then later come down from heaven to deliver His wrath on His enemies is not taught anywhere in scripture.

On my anytime rapture view chart, I added the notation in red.

I don't care about your charts. They simply reflect the false doctrine that you talk about using words, so, to me, they are worthless.

The falling away will be because some Christians will think that the Jews were right all along, and the person anointed the King of Israel following the Gog/Magog event is the real messiah instead. Which that person will initiate what will be a false messianic age, with the world saying "peace and safety.

I hope this clears it up for you.

LOL!!!! No.

(please note I have not called anyone here liars or other demeaning accusations, simply because there is some disagreement over the timing of the rapture and some differing understanding of what the text of bible means in certain passages)

Please note that I only call people liars when they lie. And, believe me, some here do lie.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the Left Behind books are based on a pre-trib rapture view. My chart is based on the anytime rapture view, i.e. anytime before the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

Do you have any timeline charts that you have made that fits the events surrounding the rapture, how they fit together ?

Why would he need to do that? Can you not understand words? How did you come to believe what you reflect in your charts? Did it not come from the words you read in scripture? Did you need to look at charts in order to understand the timing of things? No, right? There are no charts in scripture. So, it seems that you only create charts to try to show off your Photoshop skills and not really for any other reason.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Douggg, why do you choose to interpret Matthew 24 in such a way that you have Jesus all confused and all the place in the text?

Says the guy who believes Jesus said the exact words "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" and "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" twice in the Olivet Discourse. Talk about confusing!

 

[Davidpt]

Why the rapture cannot be post-trib. verses from Matthew 24:

1. no man knows the day nor hour, but God the Father only.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

2. the world will be at ease, not in great tribulation at the time of Jesus's coming for the rapture.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Maybe the perspective is this? Those that are worshiping the beast for 42 months, thus during great tribulation, great tribulation is not having the same profound affect on them as it is having on those not worshiping the beast. Great tribulation is meaning upon those not worshiping beast, and not those worshiping the beast.

Look at some of the following in Revelation 13 taking place during the 42 months, during great tribulation.


Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Do you then think that those worshiping the beast in verse 4, that this too is happening to them---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them?

That this too is happening to them---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed?

That this too is happening to them---that no man might buy or sell?

Surely, you don't, therefore, it is perfectly reasonable, since it is about perspective, that this---they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage---is applicable during great tribulation since those worshiping the beast would obviously be doing all those things during it's 42 month reign since they are living in peace at the time, not being persecuted and killed instead.

I don't know why some of you don't get it? Great tribulation doesn't affect everyone the same way. Obviously, if someone is being persecuted and killed during great tribulation and some are not, it is ludicrous to insist that great tribulation affects everyone in the same manner. The ones not being persecuted and killed are living in peace at the time, otherwise those things would be happening to them as well.

 

[Davidpt]

Says the guy who believes Jesus said the exact words "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" and "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" twice in the Olivet Discourse. Talk about confusing!

Yet, I have explained my reasoning for doing that. It's not my fault if you find none of that convincing that Luke 17 is key in determining how to interpret Matthew 24:15-21.

 

[Douggg]

So, Paul called this day when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs (which he referenced again in 2 Thess 2:1) "the day of the Lord".

No, Paul did not.

Paul explained that the rapture will take place before the man of sin is revealed by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have a achieved God-hood.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet, I have explained my reasoning for doing that. It's not my fault if you find none of that convincing that Luke 17 is key in determining how to interpret Matthew 24:15-21.

He is explaining his reasoning as well. Doesn't mean it makes any sense, though. Not any more sense than thinking Jesus repeated Himself in the Olivet Discourse without including any clarification that the exact same words He had already used were used in a different context (supposedly).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, Paul did not.

Yes, he absolutely did. Only extreme doctrinal bias would lead someone to think that he was referring to some other day in 2 Thess 2:2 than he referred to in 2 Thess 2:1. He then referred to "that day" in verse 3.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Douggg]

Why would he need to do that? Can you not understand words? How did you come to believe what you reflect in your charts? Did it not come from the words you read in scripture? Did you need to look at charts in order to understand the timing of things? No, right? There are no charts in scripture. So, it seems that you only create charts to try to show off your Photoshop skills and not really for any other reason.

As an analogy of why make a timeline chart of events, when there is a construction project to build a building, a set of specifications (words) and a set of drawings (charts are nothing more than drawings) are made that go together that guide the construction contractor on how to build the building.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As an analogy of why make a timeline chart of events, when there is a construction project to build a building, a set of specifications (words) and a set of drawings (charts are nothing more than drawings) are made that go together that guide the construction contractor on how to build the building.

Terrible analogy. No chart is necessary to understand scripture. That is a fact. However, the drawings construction contractors use are necessary in order to build their buildings.

 

[WPM]

View attachment 47540

Your charts are erroneous. They are unbiblical. Pretrib has nothing in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. What you presented exposes Pretrib. You present Pretrib as some mythical cryptic esoteric incomprehensible theory that can only be worked out by those who have read The Left Behind novels.

 

[WPM]

Terrible analogy. No chart is necessary to understand scripture. That is a fact. However, the drawings construction contractors use are necessary in order to build their buildings.

Bro, that is all he has. Take that away and his doctrine falls like a deck of cards.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bro, that is all he has. Take that away and his doctrine falls like a deck of cards.

Exactly. It's like someone thinking they've made a great movie just because it has some nice special effects while at the same time it has a terrible story with many plot holes.

 

[Davidpt]

As an analogy of why make a timeline chart of events, when there is a construction project to build a building, a set of specifications (words) and a set of drawings (charts are nothing more than drawings) are made that go together that guide the construction contractor on how to build the building.

What about a scenario such as this? 5 ppl including you make a chart involving the same events on a timeline except none of you are coming to the same conclusions pertaining to the timeline of events. Does that not at least prove charts can contain errors since all of you can't be right if not all of your timeline events are in agreement with one another? What makes your chart correct but not one of these other 4 instead, that asuming someone's timeline events is correct? Is it because, in your mind you possess greater chart making skills than these other 4, therefore, the one that makes the better looking charts has to be the one that is automatically correct?