This is his MO. This is the Pretrib MO on this forum. This is actual getting to the core of his whole position. This is all he has! If he had something, if he had Scripture, he would have given it before now.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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Look how you are arguing, though. That's not a valid argument. You are arguing something that did not involve a time of trouble with something that does involve a time of trouble. What was the time of trouble the earth was experiencing at the time leading up to the flood? Does the following sound like it was a time of trouble upon the earth where, for example, ppl were being persecuted and killed at the time simply because someone disliked them?
Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
None of that involved tribulation, let alone great tribulation. Why can't you see that a time of trouble involves persecuting and killing someone you dislike, for example? No one was doing that leading up to Noah's flood.
Noah's flood had zero to do with tribulation. It had to do with judgment, the same way when the day of the Lord begins in the final days of this age. Tribulation will be in the past at that point. The day of the Lord involves judgment, great tribulation doesn't, unless you are wrongly applying it to 70 AD. In that case it would involve judgment. But if it is involving the church in the final days of this age being persecuted and killed on a global scale, no one would insist that involves the judgment of God. The judgment of God follows that, not parallels it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Unbelievable! If I told you 1 + 1 = 2, you would find some way to make it equal 3 because you will go out of your way to disagree with me no matter what I say. Are you kidding me?!
So, you are the one who decides for everyone how the time of trouble should be understood? You are the one who decides how long that time of trouble lasts? Who put you in charge of that?
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
What basis is there for thinking this is referring to a time period of 3.5 or 7 years as you probably believe? Whatever "time of trouble" this is talking about it also says "at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.". So, the duration of time of trouble is not alluded to here! Can you acknowledge that? It could be a very short amount of time. I think it hints at that by saying "at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
I see no reason whatsoever that this can't be referring to the time when Jesus comes and delivers everyone who has their names written in the book of life (1 Thess 4:14-17) and then burns up the heavens and the earth (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).
The time of trouble was the time during which the earth was being flooded. Your doctrinal bias is very evident here! Try interpreting scripture objectively for once and see what you discover.
Why can't you see that there is more than one way that a time of trouble can occur and the amount of time can differ? It can be a short amount of time, a medium amount of time or a long time. The duration of the time of trouble is not indicated in Daniel 12:1. Can you humble yourself for just a second and admit that? It's debatable how much time it's talking about because that is not specified in the verse. I have no problem admitting that. Do you?
This is the most doctrinally biased statement imaginable. Are you kidding me??? Do you somehow not know that God's wrath can also be called tribulation?
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
It was tribulation for those being judged! I'd like to see you try to tell them that what they experienced "had zero to do with tribulation". Wow.
Do you really not know what I believe well enough by now to know how I interpret Daniel 12:1-2? How many times have I told you that I see Daniel 12:1 as global tribulation and Matthew 24:15 as local tribulation? Many times. And you still don't know what I believe?
Say what now? Are you saying that you would call what happened in 70 AD great tribulation in the form of judgment but you can't allow that Daniel 12:1 could be understood similarly in terms of great tribulation in the form of judgment when Jesus returns?
Where does Matthew 24:15-21 say anything about persecution against believers? Since when are believers told to flee persecution rather than stand up to it? Imagine Stephen just running away when he was being persecuted by the religious Jewish leaders of his day. Is that what you think Jesus was telling His people to do? To do something that Stephen would laugh at if someone told him to do that?
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Have another bad day did you? You did call the word of God nonsense. I was trying to get you to understand that what Jesus said about Daniel the prophet was important enough to go look at Daniel and see what he said..and you said that's nonsense.
So you dont want to look at the scripture in daniel so we're done then. You bailed with your brand of nonsensical tangents and insults because you dont have an answer and you probably saw that your viewpoint was crumbling already...so here you go again. I dont care what you believe. Believe what you want to.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I've had a nice day. I just don't like wasting time on your childish nonsense. Maybe if you acted like an adult, things would be different.
I absolutely did not. Why should I waste time with someone who lies about me like this? Show me where I called the word of God nonsense. Good luck with that.
Show me where I said the scripture in Daniel itself is nonsense. Good luck.
I never said that, but I know people like you misinterpret a lot of the book and try to relate the whole thing together as if the whole book is all about one prophecy instead of several different prophecies and that gets tiresome. Why can't you back up your doctrine in a clear, coherent way? Is your doctrine taught in the NT? Did you know the NT sheds light on the OT prophecies?
LOL. More lies.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Show me where he said anything personal about pretribbers in his original posts. Pretribbers started making it personal later, but that was clearly not his intention to make things personal. He attacked the doctrine, not the people who believe in it.
Well, here is your chance then. Present a coherent argument, free of childish insults, to back up your beliefs. Go for it.
If you read through the thread it will be easy to see who started making things personal. It wasn't him and wasn't anyone of us who agree with him. And how is calling it a man-made doctrine an attack on you personally? He's attacking the doctrine. It originated in 1830 when it was taught by John Nelson Darby. That's man-made. You'd have a lot of difficulty finding anyone who clearly believed in it before that. If that's not man-made, I don't know what is. But, you are free to try to prove otherwise.
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
I think it was back in post 98. I had explained to you that Jesus said some things about Daniel so is it important, so maybe we can go look at daniel now?...and you said I dont have time for nonsense or something like that. You know you said it.
I dunno if you mean Daniel is nonsense or what Jesus said is nonsense, but you did say it. Perhaps not outright but you said what I said is nonsense and all I said was...Jesus said we'll see it come to pass what Daniel the Prophet said so maybe we should go take a look at what Daniel said...and if your reply is that is nonsense (what I said) then you are indirectly calling God's word nonsense because that what's I was talking about! God's word.
So you did in my mind. You didnt say yes what does Daniel say? You said Nonsense!
S go hug your pastor and give him a 5 buck offering and you guys can come back and insult us pretribbers some more, lol.
You guys do that when you have no intelliegent answer.
Stop twisting what he said, he intimated you were talking nonsense, which is more accurate.
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If i am wrong, the burden of proof is with Pretribs to prove their belief actually exists in Scripture. The only problem is: they have no Scripture to bring to the table.
That is why so many of us have abandoned it.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Lol. How about quoting one Scripture and exegeting it? Yes, one. That would actually be a start. But you cannot. Forgetting about your imaginary 3rd coming, you do not even have a rapture passage that teaches a 7 year trib following it. You have to foist that upon Scripture.
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Exactly bro! This is what they do in each thread when they have lost the debate. They are totally incapable of exegeting a text because there is no text in Scripture that teaches their error. It is all from the Left Behind novels.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Old Testamen unbelieving Israel was always destined to be replaced by believing Israel, the Church whether, Jew and Gentiles.
The Israeli theocratic tree has been cursed forever. We are now under the new covenant where there is no racial preference. We will never go back to the old arrangement. It is time to leave the old covenant behind you.
Judaism today is apostate. It rejects Christ - man's only Savior and sacrifice for sin. The New Testament Church is true believing Israel today. We are the true Jews. We are the circumcision in God’s eyes. We are the chosen people. We are the children of Abraham.
If would care to take the time to read the NT, and let it speak for itself, you would quickly see that the NT Church is true Israel today. We are enjoined to believing Old Testament Israel through Jesus Christ. We have been made one. The wall of separation is gone forever. Israel has been expanded to embrace all nations today.
Natural designations mean nothing under the new covenant. The fact that the Holy Spirit spiritualizes all the natural old covenant Hebrew designations and relates them to the international Church of Jesus Christ speaks volumes. The fact is: we are the true children of Abraham, not ethnic Israel. We are the children of promise, not ethnic Israel. We are true Israeli citizens, not ethnic Israel. We are the circumcision, not ethnic Israel. We are the spiritual Jews, not ethnic Israel.
Why the rapture cannot be post-trib. verses from Matthew 24:
1. no man knows the day nor hour, but God the Father only.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
2. the world will be at ease, not in great tribulation at the time of Jesus's coming for the rapture.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
1. no man knows the day nor hour, but God the Father only.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
2. the world will be at ease, not in great tribulation at the time of Jesus's coming for the rapture.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
That scripture informs us that it cannot be pretrib...,
Mk 13
31 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
32 But of that [exact] day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone.
Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone.
37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.
Heaven and earth pass away when the Son of man comes.
Context-
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone.
37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].
In addition to the trumpet and seal plagues that will take place during the great tribulation, near the very end, the kings of the earth will be assembling their armies at Armageddon. That time will not be a time when the world is at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. That eliminates the post-trib view.
The rapture may be pre-70th week or it may not. But it has to be before the Day of the Lord begins, because Christians are not appointed to the time of God's wrath. 1Thessalonian5:9-11.
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Look at the logic you are using. You have dead ppl experiencing tribulation after they are dead rather than before they are dead. After all, what happened when the day came that Noah entered into the ark? Did not people on the earth begin to die soon after, not go on living for some more years instead? Your nonsensical interpretation has everyone dead before your proposed timing of great tribulation even begins. Once again, once Noah entered the ark, people began to die, began to drown. No one lived another 3.5 years once Noah entered the ark like you have them doing in Matthew 24 during Jesus' coming.
Your interpretation is not valid because on one hand you are arguing that when Noah entered the ark, this equals when the rapture takes place, and that those left behind live some more years when that doesn't remotely agree with what happened when Noah entered the ark.
No wonder I initially said that you have dead ppl experiencing tribulation after they are dead. That's what your interpretation infers since the destruction of these in Matthew 24 is being compared with when Noah entered the ark and what swiftly followed that.
Are you going to argue that ppl didn't soon start dying, but lived some more years instead? Your interpretation makes complete nonsense out of why Jesus compared His coming with that of when Noah entered the ark, and what swiftly followed. Ppl upon the earth soon began dying, not living for some more years instead like your interpretation has them doing when Noah entered the ark, keeping in mind that when Noah entered the ark, Christ's coming is being compared with the timing of that and what swiftly followed.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
More context on heaven and earth passing away at a day or hour unknown at the Lords coming,
This should be obvious
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor]. .
Gods wrath is the final judgment that eternally separates those who do not believe.
What do you think it is?
What else can it be?
Matt 24
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.
Worse than Noah's day and saved by God's righteous judgment.
2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day
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