The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

If this was correct, don't you think Paul would have said, but of the time and season? He doesn't.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


The believers are removed at the 6th seal. They are not on the earth during the seventh seal.

Jesus said this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So, Jesus indicated that no one knows the day or hour that He will come, which will occur when "this generation" and heaven and earth pass away. He told a parable regarding things that would happen during a particular time or season which would indicate that His return was near. But, no one would know when that time period would be which would indicate when His return is near until that time or season actually came. So, Paul was not interested in speculating on which times or seasons might indicate that the day of Christ's return was near. He wasn't interested in trying to speculate on how long it would be before Christ returned because no one knew that.

His focus instead was on telling people to always be spiritually alert and sober so that the actual day Christ returns like a thief in the night would not catch them completely unaware like it will unbelievers who don't even believe that day is coming.

How could "times and seasons" refer to the duration of the "the day of the Lord" itself when the day of the Lord is described as an actual day when the heavens and earth will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12)?

How can you think that the day of the Lord bringing "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3) could go on for a whole year? Peter describes the destruction here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" the sudden destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord. Who could escape what Peter described here? No one, obviously. No mortals, anyway. And what reason is there to think that this fiery event would last for a whole year? Would it really take the Lord that long to burn up the heavens and the earth? No, I'm sure it wouldn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The marriage supper takes place in heaven.

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

This does not say that the marriage supper takes place in heaven. What this indicates is that Christ's wife/bride will have made herself ready for the marriage at this point. It won't have taken place yet. And it doesn't say where it will take place. The part of the bride of Christ that this is talking about are the souls of the dead in Christ. They will go with Jesus at this point (1 Thess 4:14) and unite with their resurrected changed bodies (1 Cor 15:51-54) and be caught up to meet Him "in the air". So, there is no basis whatsoever for saying that the marriage will take place in heaven based on what it says in Revelation 19:7. That verse absolutely does not say where the marriage takes place, it only says that the bride/wife of Christ is ready for the marriage at that point.

So what trumpet does your rapture occur at?

Can you make that a little bigger? I can't read it. The rapture will occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected (1 Thess 4:14-17), so therefore it will occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) which is the last prophetic trumpet, so it is the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The bride of Christ is the raptured/resurrected saints, who will appear before the bema seat of Jesus for rewards for the things they did for the cause of Christ during their lives here on earth. The bema seat of Jesus will take place in heaven, while the great tribulation is taking place on earth.

You need to read those verses more carefully. It's not talking about literal fine linen there. The fine linen symbolically represents "the righteousness of saints". So, there is no indication that they have bodies. There is no indication there that they have already been resurrected and raptured. You are reading things into the text that aren't there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Day of the Lord is eternal. It has segments to it. It will begin when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

You are making things up that aren't taught in scripture anywhere. The only parts to the day of the Lord are indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. It is an actual coming 24 hour day and no one knows which day or which hour it will be (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). So, it will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night and will bring complete destruction to the earth upon its arrival.

When that day arrives, Jesus will descend from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ, the bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then, Jesus will send down "sudden destruction" by way of fire (2 Peter 3:10-12) from which His enemies "shall not escape". That is what comprises the day of the Lord according to Paul. I personally trust Paul to have known what he was talking about, but I guess you don't.

 

[MA2444]

I can't take this seriously. It says "AFTER the tribulation of those days" and then you say "the great tribulation is almost over". The word AFTER doesn't mean "almost over". Good grief. I'm not wasting my time reading this nonsense. I have better things to do.

He is incorrect on that. You're right, the abomination of desolation where he sets up his statue in the temple means it's halfway through the 7 year trib and now begins, the great trib.

Listen to me now Brother. The book of Daniel is the word of God. The word of God is not nonsense. Jesus told you in Matthew 24, remember what Daniel said, you will see this happen. and you call it nonsense. Oh yeah your on the right track. (Sarcastic voice off).

You have to engage your brain with this. You cant approach it like, oh it doesnt make sense to me so forget trying to understand that...that's lame bud.
You'll go watch a good movie I bet. There's 90 minutes down and worth it hey? If you put 90 minutes into reading about this story of things to come, it's like watching a movie too in your head. Watching a tv or computer screen too much slowly destroys your atten span and your ability to create images in your head because the TV just feeds images into your head and you receive them with no effort. You must exercise your brain and imagination sometimes and give that screen a break.

There was a season that I went through that was making an effort to at least split my screen time with reading a chapter in the bible. I was fond of playing a game called Wings, and I didnt want to play it too much. I know I have to give my brain a break and do something else that will exercise my imagination and force my mind into making images so I can see what's going on. You know what happened? I started unconsciously playing Wings less and reading more! The word of God gets soo interesting the more you read it!

And the more understanding that comes. from the faith comes by hearing, and the Holy Spirit WIll talk to us when we come before Him in the word.That's how it works to learn from the Spirit. You using your free will and are coming before God in His word which gives Him the right to intervene in your life without violating your free will. At least long enough to teach you and speak directly to you. It's part of the sanctification process.
Or dont you understand that either?

 

[MA2444]

His focus instead was on telling people to always be spiritually alert and sober so that the actual day Christ returns like a thief in the night would not catch them completely unaware like it will unbelievers who don't even believe that day is coming.

1260 days, or 42 months after the ac does the abomination of desolation in the temple, Jesus will return. It says so all through scripture! You can set your watch by it almost, lol.

But you wont tread on the book of Daniel, so you dont know that.

If Jesus told you to read the prophet Daniel in Matt. 24, then dont you think it might be important?

 

[MA2444]

When that day arrives, Jesus will descend from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ, the bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then, Jesus will send down "sudden destruction" by way of fire (2 Peter 3:10-12) from which His enemies "shall not escape". That is what comprises the day of the Lord according to Paul. I personally trust Paul to have known what he was talking about, but I guess you don't.

I'll go so far as to say, it is sorta vague about this. But like a similar point I made to you earlier about Jesus said He is coming for His Bride/church and at the last day He sends the Angels to gather in the remnant...and if this is the day of the Lord then it could easily mean that Jesus Himself will deliver the final blow to the enemy and that is the true day of the Lord?

Because the rapture has already happened before this event...but...you wont flip over to daniel with any effort. So we'll put a pin in that one hey?

 

[The Light]

So, Jesus indicated that no one knows the day or hour that He will come,

This is why we are instructed to watch and be ready. We are to watch so we will know the day that He will come.

Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

So, Paul was not interested in speculating on which times or seasons might indicate that the day of Christ's return was near. He wasn't interested in trying to speculate on how long it would be before Christ returned because no one knew that.

Paul said, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

He just got done talking about the coming of the Lord and a rapture. That is why he said TIMES AND SEASONS. That's because they already knew of the times and seasons. He is coming more than once.

How could "times and seasons" refer to the duration of the "the day of the Lord" itself when the day of the Lord is described as an actual day when the heavens and earth will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12)?

I did not say that the TIMES and SEASONS referred to the length of the Day of the Lord. Times and seasons refers to more than one coming.

How can you think that the day of the Lord bringing "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3) could go on for a whole year? Peter describes the destruction here:

And yet the day of the Lord is one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. We know the 5th trumpet is 5 months long. And after is sudden destruction at Armageddon.

No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" the sudden destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord. Who could escape what Peter described here? No one, obviously. No mortals, anyway. And what reason is there to think that this fiery event would last for a whole year? Would it really take the Lord that long to burn up the heavens and the earth? No, I'm sure it wouldn't.

The Lord is going to spend one year in vengeance.

The day of the Lord is one year.

 

[The Light]

This does not say that the marriage supper takes place in heaven. What this indicates is that Christ's wife/bride will have made herself ready for the marriage at this point. It won't have taken place yet. And it doesn't say where it will take place. The part of the bride of Christ that this is talking about are the souls of the dead in Christ.

Jesus comes for the Church before the seals are opened. At the end of the Great Tribulation the second harvest occurs as Jesus has removed blindness from part of Israel.........the seed of the woman.......the twelve tribes across the earth.

So this is not about souls as the both harvests, grain and fruit have been completed. They have their uncorruptible bodies and are in heaven at the marriage supper.

They will go with Jesus at this point (1 Thess 4:14) and unite with their resurrected changed bodies (1 Cor 15:51-54) and be caught up to meet Him "in the air". So, there is no basis whatsoever for saying that the marriage will take place in heaven based on what it says in Revelation 19:7. That verse absolutely does not say where the marriage takes place, it only says that the bride/wife of Christ is ready for the marriage at that point.

It's clear there is a great multitude in heaven at the 6th seal. This occurs right after the gathering from heaven and earth. They go to the marriage supper

Can you make that a little bigger? I can't read it.

Yes I can make it bigger. I can turn it into an image.

The rapture will occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected (1 Thess 4:14-17),

This is the rapture of the Church which occurs before the tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first. They go to heaven. The Lord brings them with Him when He returns for the alive that remained. This is the grain harvest, barley and wheat. Spring and summer.

so therefore it will occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)

This is when God returns for the seed of the woman which keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. They are regrafted into the Olive tree.

which is the last prophetic trumpet, so it is the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation.

The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets, a day of blowing trumpets, a feast of God. This is the fall fruit harvest.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

Here are some of the revealing statements Pretribbers have made recently.














So, where is a Pretrib rapture in the Bible? Nowhere! They admit this, yet refuse to abandon their error. Amazing! They admit this, yet they want to change us and get us to believe this error. It is ridiculous!

The Bible evidence supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

The Bible shows us that there is one future coming of the Lord which is all-consummating.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

Lol
You just posted that AFTER the trib angels gather from heaven.
Lol. In the pretrib rapture taught by the Bible, Jesus gathers from the earth.
Lol, you just posted " before the flood, pre flood, pretrib one is taken/left.
Then in that prefllod/trib setting. JESUS COMMANDS to watch and be ready

Then you ironically claim there are no verses. While leaving us in your false logic without a single postrib rapture verse!!!!!
Lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Spiritual Israelite said:
"The rapture will occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected (1 Thess 4:14-17),"

It also says they are gathered prior to the living.
The gathering of Rev 14:14 is DURING THE TRIB.
PSSSST...that means the gathering of 1 thes ,is pretrib.

 

[WPM]

Lol
You just posted that AFTER the trib angels gather from heaven.
Lol. In the pretrib rapture taught by the Bible, Jesus gathers from the earth.
Lol, you just posted " before the flood, pre flood, pretrib one is taken/left.
Then in that prefllod/trib setting. JESUS COMMANDS to watch and be ready

Then you ironically claim there are no verses. While leaving us in your false logic without a single postrib rapture verse!!!!!
Lol

You seem incapable of actually addressing the sacred text and refuting the biblical Posttrib arguments. That is a testimony of how watertight the arguments are. All we get is your Pretrib talking points, but no biblical substance. When one argument is exposed, you move to another. It is impossible to get Pretribbbers to actually exegete Scripture. I wonder why? They have non prooftext!

 

[WPM]

Spiritual Israelite said:
"The rapture will occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected (1 Thess 4:14-17),"

It also says they are gathered prior to the living.
The gathering of Rev 14:14 is DURING THE TRIB.
PSSSST...that means the gathering of 1 thes ,is pretrib.

Hello! We are in the trib. It has been ongoing since the early Church. The NT Church has always been in tribulation. Where is your future Pretrib rapture in Revelation?

 

[WPM]

Jesus comes for the Church before the seals are opened. At the end of the Great Tribulation the second harvest occurs as Jesus has removed blindness from part of Israel.........the seed of the woman.......the twelve tribes across the earth.

So this is not about souls as the both harvests, grain and fruit have been completed. They have their uncorruptible bodies and are in heaven at the marriage supper.


It's clear there is a great multitude in heaven at the 6th seal. This occurs right after the gathering from heaven and earth. They go to the marriage supper


Yes I can make it bigger. I can turn it into an image.


This is the rapture of the Church which occurs before the tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first. They go to heaven. The Lord brings them with Him when He returns for the alive that remained. This is the grain harvest, barley and wheat. Spring and summer.


This is when God returns for the seed of the woman which keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. They are regrafted into the Olive tree.


The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets, a day of blowing trumpets, a feast of God. This is the fall fruit harvest.

Those who are left behind when Jesus comes are destroyed. You are yet to address the Op that exposes Pretrib and reinforces Postrib.

 

[WPM]

Jesus comes for the Church before the seals are opened. At the end of the Great Tribulation the second harvest occurs as Jesus has removed blindness from part of Israel.........the seed of the woman.......the twelve tribes across the earth.

So this is not about souls as the both harvests, grain and fruit have been completed. They have their uncorruptible bodies and are in heaven at the marriage supper.


It's clear there is a great multitude in heaven at the 6th seal. This occurs right after the gathering from heaven and earth. They go to the marriage supper


Yes I can make it bigger. I can turn it into an image.


This is the rapture of the Church which occurs before the tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first. They go to heaven. The Lord brings them with Him when He returns for the alive that remained. This is the grain harvest, barley and wheat. Spring and summer.


This is when God returns for the seed of the woman which keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. They are regrafted into the Olive tree.


The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets, a day of blowing trumpets, a feast of God. This is the fall fruit harvest.

This is all noise. Where is your future Pretrib rapture in Revelation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He is incorrect on that. You're right, the abomination of desolation where he sets up his statue in the temple means it's halfway through the 7 year trib and now begins, the great trib.

Listen to me now Brother. The book of Daniel is the word of God.

When did I say otherwise....Brother? Do you imagine that you're here to teach me? You have proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are very lacking in spiritual discernment and knowledge of the word of God. You have given me no reason to think that you have anything to teach me with the immature attitude that you have displayed on this forum. You just relay whatever info you are fed by your pastors and teachers. Invite them here so that I can talk to them directly. They are likely more mature than you, at least.

The word of God is not nonsense.

Who said it was? Certainly not me. I don't have time to read this kind of nonsense from immature kids like you. I'm done with that.

Jesus told you in Matthew 24, remember what Daniel said, you will see this happen. and you call it nonsense.

I never call God's word nonsense and you know it. That is a lie. Is that all you have to offer is lies? I call you and your childish buddies' interpretations of God's Word nonsense, not His Word itself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol
You just posted that AFTER the trib angels gather from heaven.
Lol. In the pretrib rapture taught by the Bible, Jesus gathers from the earth.

LOL!!!!!!!!! In the post-trib rapture taught by the Bible, Jesus gathers FROM HEAVEN and FROM THE EARTH. Hello! Wake up! LOL!!!!!

Here's the gathering from heaven:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Here's the gathering from the earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then you ironically claim there are no verses. While leaving us in your false logic without a single postrib rapture verse!!!!!
Lol

You have no idea of what you're talking about!!!! LOL!!!!!

 

[WPM]

He is incorrect on that. You're right, the abomination of desolation where he sets up his statue in the temple means it's halfway through the 7 year trib and now begins, the great trib.

Listen to me now Brother. The book of Daniel is the word of God. The word of God is not nonsense. Jesus told you in Matthew 24, remember what Daniel said, you will see this happen. and you call it nonsense. Oh yeah your on the right track. (Sarcastic voice off).

You have to engage your brain with this. You cant approach it like, oh it doesnt make sense to me so forget trying to understand that...that's lame bud.
You'll go watch a good movie I bet. There's 90 minutes down and worth it hey? If you put 90 minutes into reading about this story of things to come, it's like watching a movie too in your head. Watching a tv or computer screen too much slowly destroys your atten span and your ability to create images in your head because the TV just feeds images into your head and you receive them with no effort. You must exercise your brain and imagination sometimes and give that screen a break.

There was a season that I went through that was making an effort to at least split my screen time with reading a chapter in the bible. I was fond of playing a game called Wings, and I didnt want to play it too much. I know I have to give my brain a break and do something else that will exercise my imagination and force my mind into making images so I can see what's going on. You know what happened? I started unconsciously playing Wings less and reading more! The word of God gets soo interesting the more you read it!

And the more understanding that comes. from the faith comes by hearing, and the Holy Spirit WIll talk to us when we come before Him in the word.That's how it works to learn from the Spirit. You using your free will and are coming before God in His word which gives Him the right to intervene in your life without violating your free will. At least long enough to teach you and speak directly to you. It's part of the sanctification process.
Or dont you understand that either?

You seem to have a problem with addressing the biblical texts you reference and also quoting them and exegeting them line upon line. You seem to repeat the Pretrib catchphrases you have been taught from the Left Behind novels. without bring hard Scripture to the table.

 

[WPM]

You mean like I showed you the 24 elders in heaven with crowns proving that Jesus has come and the kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 that you cannot refute?

You previously told me they were not the Church. Which is it? You seem to be confused with your own position.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is why we are instructed to watch and be ready. We are to watch so we will know the day that He will come.

Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

He wasn't talking about watching so that we would know exactly what hour He will come. Good grief. Like Paul in 1 Thess 5:1-6, Jesus talked about being ready spiritually for His coming so that He won't destroy us like He will destroy those who don't even believe that He is coming.

Do you think Jesus contradicted Himself in Rev 3:3 from what He said here:

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Why did you draw a conclusion about what Rev 3:3 is saying without taking other scripture into account? That's typical of how you interpret scripture. Can you see here how Jesus says to watch and be ready but also says "ye know not what hour your Lord doth come"? That completely contradicts your understanding of Rev 3:3. The idea is to be ready for His coming unlike unbelievers. It has nothing to do with watching in order to know the exact hour He will come. It has to do with watching that we are not deceived so that we are ready whenever He does come.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus indicated that there would be signs to indicate that His coming was near, but never said we would ever know the exact day or hour He would come. We need to watch spiritually and make sure we are not deceived. We need to be spiritually alert and sober (1 Thess 5:4-9).

Matthew 24:24 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

People make the mistake of only reading Matthew 24 while neglecting the other accounts of the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13 and Luke 21 that give us additional insight not found in Matthew 24.

Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. 35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

Clearly, your interpretation of Rev 3:3 does not line up with that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse.

Paul said, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

He just got done talking about the coming of the Lord and a rapture. That is why he said TIMES AND SEASONS. That's because they already knew of the times and seasons. He is coming more than once.

Nonsense. I told you why he said that in you ignored it.

I did not say that the TIMES and SEASONS referred to the length of the Day of the Lord. Times and seasons refers to more than one coming.

No, they do not. He only referenced one future coming of the Lord in his writings.

And yet the day of the Lord is one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

How did you choose to see it as being one year in duration instead of a day when it mentions both a day and a year there? How convenient for you to take "the year" literally, but not "the day". Neither the word "day" nor the word "year" are meant to be taken literally there. It's simply figuratively referring to the time when the Lord's vengeance occurs, however long that actually takes. And both Paul and Peter indicated that this vengeance that comes on the day of the Lord involves the destruction of the entire earth (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12), so the day of the Lord will last however long that takes, which certainly shouldn't be for an entire year.