The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

More lies! I showed you a detailed outline of Revelation, and you say this. You are obviously frustrated because every argument, theory and twisting of Scripture you have presented has been solidly and repeatedly debunked.

Do you realize how pitiful Pretrib looks to those watching on?

Are you Post-trib ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, the verse actually says in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Which is in Matthew 24:30a, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

The day being referred to is the day of the Lord. Not a 24 hour day.

You are trying to make scripture say what you want it to say again. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the day that the sign of the Son of man in heaven occurs is not the same 24 hour day that everyone will see Him coming in the clouds of heaven with His angels.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Only extreme doctrinal bias would lead someone to try to put a separation between the day that "shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" with the day "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". What you are not recognizing here is that the appearing of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" relates directly to everyone seeing Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1Thessalonian5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The world will be saying Peace and safety because it will be thinking that it has entered the messianic age. But it will be a false messianic age as show on my chart.

Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 5 does Paul say anything like what you are saying. You are once again trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

If you actually read the context of 1 Thess 5, Paul contrasts those who are spiritually sober and in the spiritual light with those who are spiritually drunk and unaware and in spiritual darkness. So, the context of those who are in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety" is in relation to them feeling spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. It has nothing to do with world peace as you imagine. Because of their lack of spiritual awareness, "sudden detruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape". The reason Paul said "they shall not escape" God's wrath on the day of the Lord is because it will be fire coming down on the entire earth on that day (2 Peter 3:10-12). Obviously, no one can escape that.

When the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount, them in Judea are to flee right away. Don't take time to pack up all the household materials, like family photo albums, and silverware, things accumulated over a life time, like in preparing for a move. Instead, leave that stuff behind, and flee to the mountains in the quickest way possible.

Paul could not possibly be referring to the same thing as Matthew 24:15-21 because mortals survive that event while no mortals will survive the arrival of the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you Post-trib ?

LOL. Are you serious? He obviously is not pre-trib since he created this thread with the title: "The absurdity of pretrib logic". So, what else could he be if not post-trib? Did you think he was mid-trib? If you actually read his posts, it's very obvious that he is post-trib, so I don't know how you could not be aware of that.

 

[The Light]

More lies! I showed you a detailed outline of Revelation, and you say this. You are obviously frustrated because every argument, theory and twisting of Scripture you have presented has been solidly and repeatedly debunked.

Oh boy. Says the guy who intentionally changed the scripture in an attempt to lead others from the truth. Your father must be proud.

Do you realize how pitiful Pretrib looks to those watching on?

Why are you unable to show where your rapture is in Revelation?

 

[The Light]

LOL. Are you serious? He obviously is not pre-trib since he created this thread with the title: "The absurdity of pretrib logic". So, what else could he be if not post-trib? Did you think he was mid-trib? If you actually read his posts, it's very obvious that he is post-trib, so I don't know how you could not be aware of that.

No. He is not post trib. He is post wrath and doesn't realize that. He has the Church going through the wrath of God when we are not appointed to wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. He is not post trib. He is post wrath and doesn't realize that. He has the Church going through the wrath of God when we are not appointed to wrath.

I know what he believes far better than you do (since we agree on almost everything end times related), so you should not try to talk for him. He does not have the church going through God's wrath that Paul references in 1 Thess 5:9, which is described in 1 Thess 5:2-3. He, like me, sees 1 Thess 4:14-5:9 as happening on the same day with believers being caught up to Christ "in the air" first, followed by the wrath of Christ/God coming down on all of His enemies on the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Never has he (or I or anyone who believes like us) said that we experience God's wrath on us. If any of God's wrath occurs before the day Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10), then God would certainly protect us from that while we are on the earth. Surely, He is quite capable of doing that. The only time when it would be necessary to remove us from the earth to avoid His wrath is on the day Christ returns since God's wrath will come down on literally the entire earth on that day (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

 

[The Light]

I know what he believes far better than you do (since we agree on almost everything end times related), so you should not try to talk for him. He does not have the church going through God's wrath that Paul references in 1 Thess 5:9, which is described in 1 Thess 5:2-3. He, like me, sees 1 Thess 4:14-5:9 as happening on the same day with believers being caught up to Christ "in the air" first, followed by the wrath of Christ/God coming down on all of His enemies on the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Never has he (or I or anyone who believes like us) said that we experience God's wrath on us. If any of God's wrath occurs before the day Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10), then God would certainly protect us from that while we are on the earth. Surely, He is quite capable of doing that. The only time when it would be necessary to remove us from the earth to avoid His wrath is on the day Christ returns since God's wrath will come down on literally the entire earth on that day (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

Christ returns at the 6th seal, before the Day of the Lord. There is a harvest. The righteous are taken to heaven for the marriage supper.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The unrighteous are left on earth and are cast into the one-year wrath of God.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ returns at the 6th seal, before the Day of the Lord. There is a harvest. The righteous are taken to heaven for the marriage supper.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The unrighteous are left on earth and are cast into the one-year wrath of God.

Revelation 14
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Can you please address what I said in my post instead of telling me for the thousandth time how you interpret these passages as if I didn't already know? Can you acknowledge that people like me and WPM do NOT teach that believers will experience God's wrath instead of making that false claim about us? We disagree with you that the wrath of God of Revelation 14:17-19 lasts for one year because we see it happening in one day, but we agree with you that believers will not experience it. Okay?

 

[Douggg]

You are trying to make scripture say what you want it to say again. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the day that the sign of the Son of man in heaven occurs is not the same 24 hour day that everyone will see Him coming in the clouds of heaven with His angels.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Only extreme doctrinal bias would lead someone to try to put a separation between the day that "shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" with the day "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". What you are not recognizing here is that the appearing of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" relates directly to everyone seeing Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Each of these verses are in segments. I will explain.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [the great tribulation is almost over. The tribulation of those days is the 1290 days in Daniel 12:11, beginning when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount]

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [this is the sixth seal event in Revelation 6. ]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [the world will see Jesus in heaven, in the sixth seal event. Which will terrify the wicked men of the earth. And in Revelation 16:13-16, the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will convince the kings of the earth the only way to survive will be to make war on Jesus. So they begin by assembling their armies at Armageddon]

and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [on the 1335 day of Daniel 12:12 after the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount, Jesus descends to earth, coming with power and great glory, and executes judgment on the wicked who have gathered to make war on Him]

On my chart below, in the lower right hand corner is Matthew 24:29-30.

 

[The Light]

He does not have the church going through God's wrath that Paul references in 1 Thess 5:9, which is described in 1 Thess 5:2-3. He, like me, sees 1 Thess 4:14-5:9 as happening on the same day with believers being caught up to Christ "in the air" first, followed by the wrath of Christ/God coming down on all of His enemies on the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12).

If this was correct, don't you think Paul would have said, but of the time and season? He doesn't.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Never has he (or I or anyone who believes like us) said that we experience God's wrath on us. If any of God's wrath occurs before the day Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10), then God would certainly protect us from that while we are on the earth. Surely, He is quite capable of doing that. The only time when it would be necessary to remove us from the earth to avoid His wrath is on the day Christ returns since God's wrath will come down on literally the entire earth on that day (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

The believers are removed at the 6th seal. They are not on the earth during the seventh seal.

 

[The Light]

Can you please address what I said in my post instead of telling me for the thousandth time how you interpret these passages as if I didn't already know?

The passages speak for themselves.

We disagree with you that the wrath of God of Revelation 14:17-19 lasts for one year because we see it happening in one day, but we agree with you that believers will not experience it. Okay?

Isaiah 34 is talking about the events of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

The wrath of God........the Day of the Lord...........The day of vengeance................ last one year

Isaish 34

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

 

[Douggg]

Paul could not possibly be referring to the same thing as Matthew 24:15-21 because mortals survive that event while no mortals will survive the arrival of the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10-12).

The Day of the Lord is eternal. It has segments to it. It will begin when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

Peter was speaking about a later segment when this present heaven and earth will be destroyed. That destruction will take place right before the Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20:11.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The Day of the Lord in segments are:
1. begins with the transgression of desolation.
2. then the abomination of desolation set up.
3. then the great tribulation.
4. then Jesus's second coming.
5. then the millennium.
6. then the Great White Throne judgment.
7. then Eternity.

 

[WPM]

Oh boy. Says the guy who intentionally changed the scripture in an attempt to lead others from the truth. Your father must be proud.


Why are you unable to show where your rapture is in Revelation?

Not true. Please stick to the facts.

Let us address this 1 at a time. The marriage of the Lamb is our union with Christ in Revelation 19. Jesus comes with and for His saints. That is where He comes for His bride - us.

 

[MA2444]

What evidence do you have to back this up?

Uhh, I read it and think I comprehend it? I gave you the verses and told you what my conclusion was, but I can't understand it for you. If you think I am wrong then tell me where? What?

I'm sorry, but nothing you said here makes any sense to me.

Jesus is talking to the disciples, right?

Matthew 24:15
15 “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration[d] standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!).../NLT

And he goes on telling about the things that will happen but down in V36 He changes the subkect with the word However is de peri in Greek. The disciples know the language good so knew he was changing the subject, but it's easy to miss for us westerners that wasnt brought up with the language. One Pastor that does know the language gave a teaching on it, and I cant pretend to know Greek now but that's what he said and it makes sense to me.

Should we go see what Daniel had to say about rapture & end times now?

Jesus says right in the middle of it, the day will come when you will see what Daniel the Prophet was talking about...Well what was Daniel the Prophet talking about? Don't you think that might be important to check it out?
So I said, should we go check out Daniel now? ...and your response is, I don't know what you mean?! What part of that request dont make sense to you? I speak English...I dunno know what to say?

The rapture (being caught up to Christ) is not mentioned anywhere in Daniel, so I would say this is not something we can do.

You cant do that since you...dont understand what I mean, let's go look at Daniel...Huh? Whats that mean? Are you pulling my leg?

I don't know what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're just doing a lot of speculating, but I'd prefer to just stick by what scripture actually says.

I posted scripture and you said it makes no sense to you. Look, I'm not the author of the book. I didnt assemblr it so that bits and pieces of the information is all mixed up in scripture, but we can still put it together and reason it out, unless you are resisting receiving it as potential truth. You have to come to conclusions about parts of it because He wants us to make a constant effort to search out all the truth that we can. And we have to factor in faith. We have to take some of it on faith because that is how God wants it. So, it's not all about doctrine, but faith and the Spirit at the same time. I would suggest to you that since you have such a hard time understanding these spiritual issues (scriptures), that you read it again and pray about it and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into the truth. Maybe the Holy Spirit speaks your language better than I do?

Paul and John both tells us how to do it in

Romans 10:16-19
16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[i]
17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.
18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have:

“The message has gone throughout the earth,
and the words to all the world.”[j]

19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said,
“I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation.
I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.”[k].../NLT
And...

1 John 2:27
27 But you have received the Holy Spirit,[a] and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit[b] teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.../NLT

But you have to make effort. You have to reach for the Holy Spirit in prayer at that time. The Holy Spirit can get you to understand what is true. If you try.

I'm sorry, but I can't follow your train of thought at all. Since scripture says certain things have to happen before His coming and our being gathered to Him, this shows that His coming was not imminent until those things happen first. And how can there be an imminent pretrib rapture when scripture says there are certain things that have to happen first before the rapture occurs?

Oh really? I must have missed those scriptures that say prophetical events must happen before the rapture. What are those scriptures?

 

[MA2444]

How are you coming to this conclusion? You are saying this about the scriptures I posted, which were Matthew 24:10-13 and Matthew 24:23-26. If you keep reading after verse 26, this is what it says:

Because he changed the subject in V36?

 

[MA2444]

How are you coming to this conclusion? You are saying this about the scriptures I posted, which were Matthew 24:10-13 and Matthew 24:23-26. If you keep reading after verse 26, this is what it says:

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So, right after the things Jesus mentioned in verses 23-26 which involve such a high level of deception that it could deceive even the elect, if that were possible, it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect". There's the reference to the rapture and it occurs "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days". So, the rapture is POST-TRIB, not pre-trib.

No you seem to be missing a couple things. It is two different events. When Jesus

When Jesus comes for His Bride, He comes for His Bride. After the tribulation at the end He sends the Angels out to gather in the people who went through tribulation and got saved, and the 144,000 need gathered too. Want the scriptures for those?

When you read Matthew 24, dont forget that Jesus changes the subject in V36.

 

[Douggg]

Let us address this 1 at a time. The marriage of the Lamb is our union with Christ in Revelation 19. Jesus comes with and for His saints. That is where He comes for His bride - us.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The bride of Christ is the raptured/resurrected saints, who will appear before the bema seat of Jesus for rewards for the things they did for the cause of Christ during their lives here on earth. The bema seat of Jesus will take place in heaven, while the great tribulation is taking place on earth.

 

[The Light]

Not true. Please stick to the facts.

Let us address this 1 at a time. The marriage of the Lamb is our union with Christ in Revelation 19. Jesus comes with and for His saints. That is where He comes for His bride - us.

The marriage supper takes place in heaven.

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The armies of heaven will go to the earth for Armageddon.

Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


So what trumpet does your rapture occur at?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Each of these verses are in segments. I will explain.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [the great tribulation is almost over. The tribulation of those days is the 1290 days in Daniel 12:11, beginning when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount]

I can't take this seriously. It says "AFTER the tribulation of those days" and then you say "the great tribulation is almost over". The word AFTER doesn't mean "almost over". Good grief. I'm not wasting my time reading this nonsense. I have better things to do.

 

[Truth7t7]

I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

Here are some of the revealing statements Pretribbers have made recently.














So, where is a Pretrib rapture in the Bible? Nowhere! They admit this, yet refuse to abandon their error. Amazing! They admit this, yet they want to change us and get us to believe this error. It is ridiculous!

The Bible evidence supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

The Bible shows us that there is one future coming of the Lord which is all-consummating.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The Absurdity Of Reformed Preterist Logic In 70AD Fulfillment Of Matthew Chapter 24 In The Olivet Discourse