The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

Look at the logic you are using. You have dead ppl experiencing tribulation after they are dead rather than before they are dead. After all, what happened when the day came that Noah entered into the ark? Did not people on the earth begin to die soon after, not go on living for some more years instead? Your nonsensical interpretation has everyone dead before your proposed timing of great tribulation even begins. Once again, once Noah entered the ark, people began to die, began to drown. No one lived another 3.5 years once Noah entered the ark like you have them doing in Matthew 24 during Jesus' coming.

Your interpretation is not valid because on one hand you are arguing that when Noah entered the ark, this equals when the rapture takes place, and that those left behind live some more years when that doesn't remotely agree with what happened when Noah entered the ark.

No wonder I initially said that you have dead ppl experiencing tribulation after they are dead. That's what your interpretation infers since the destruction of these in Matthew 24 is being compared with when Noah entered the ark and what swiftly followed that.

Are you going to argue that ppl didn't soon start dying, but lived some more years instead? Your interpretation makes complete nonsense out of why Jesus compared His coming with that of when Noah entered the ark, and what swiftly followed. Ppl upon the earth soon began dying, not living for some more years instead like your interpretation has them doing when Noah entered the ark, keeping in mind that when Noah entered the ark, Christ's coming is being compared with the timing of that and what swiftly followed.

I have no idea of what you are saying.

The coming of Jesus for the rapture has to be at a time when the world is at ease, not in great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

More context on heaven and earth passing away at a day or hour unknown at the Lords coming,

This should be obvious

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor]. .

Gods wrath is the final judgment that eternally separates those who do not believe.
What do you think it is?
What else can it be?

Matt 24
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

Worse than Noah's day and saved by God's righteous judgment.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

I have no idea of what you are saying.

The coming of Jesus for the rapture has to be at a time when the world is at ease, not in great tribulation.

 

[jeffweeder]

I have no idea of what you are saying.

The coming of Jesus for the rapture has to be at a time when the world is at ease, not in great tribulation.

The scripture you use for that, v36,37,38 is incomplete and out of context as I already showed you.

35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].


The bolded and underlined strongly suggest post trib

 

[Davidpt]

I have no idea of what you are saying.

The coming of Jesus for the rapture has to be at a time when the world is at ease, not in great tribulation.

And equally when His coming happens it is being compared with what happened at the time once Noah entered the ark. They obviously gave up eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. But not because they may have wanted to, but because they had no say so in the matter. Their life was over at that point, and not this instead, that they continued eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, for a few more years.

If something is being compared with something, it's being compared with something for a reason. And the reason is not nonsensical, such as your interpretation is doing, the fact when Noah entered the ark, that this meant ppl began dying soon after, but in Matthew 24 even though His coming is being compared with what swiftly happened once Noah entered the ark, instead of all of them dying at the time like they did once Noah entered the ark., you have them continuing to live some more years. What kind of comparison is that?

And if you still don't know what I'm talking about, you simply just don't care to know and that you place your doctrine above the words of Christ since He indicated that when He comes it will be like what happened when Noah entered the ark. And what happened when Noah entered the ark? Are you able to be honest about it, that ppl soon began dying, not living some more years instead, and that it has to be equally true when the coming meant in Matthew 24 in the passage in question occurs?

 

[MA2444]

Lol. How about quoting one and exegeting it? Yes, one. That would actually be as start. But you cannot. Forgetting about your imaginary 3rd coming, you do not even have a rapture passage that teaches a 7 year trib following it. You have to foist that upon Scripture.

How? I've been trying for days to get your wife to turn to the book of Daniel and she refuses.

Then you weirdos say they have no scripture...

 

[Douggg]

The scripture you use for that, v36,37,38 is incomplete and out of context as I already showed you.

35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].


The bolded and underlined strongly suggest post trib

The flood lasted 150 days (Genesis 7:24). No eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, during that 150 days.

The great tribulation will last 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12). During that time, the world will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Thus, the coming of the Son of Man for the rapture will be before the great tribulation.

Eliminating the post-trib view.

 

[Douggg]

If something is being compared with something, it's being compared with something for a reason. And the reason is not nonsensical, such as your interpretation is doing, the fact when Noah entered the ark, that this meant ppl began dying soon after, but in Matthew 24 even though His coming is being compared with what swiftly happened once Noah entered the ark, instead of all of them dying at the time like they did once Noah entered the ark., you have them continuing to live some more years. What kind of comparison is that?

David, the great tribulation will not result in everyone dying like in the flood (except for Noah and his family).

The eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage indicates that the world will be at ease when Jesus comes for the rapture.

During the great tribulation, the world will not be at ease.

The flood lasted 150 days (Genesis 7:24)
The great tribulation will last 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12)

 

[The Light]

Lol. How about quoting one and exegeting it? Yes, one. That would actually be as start. But you cannot. Forgetting about your imaginary 3rd coming, you do not even have a rapture passage that teaches a 7 year trib following it. You have to foist that upon Scripture.

WOW. I'm not sure how many times you need to be told I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I do believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

Here is a pretrib verse. Are you able to comprehend what ESCAPE ALL THESE THING MEANS? You must know what that means because you tried to change the Greek in an attempt to fool everyone. But you were caught trying to deceive believers.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think it was back in post 98. I had explained to you that Jesus said some things about Daniel so is it important, so maybe we can go look at daniel now?...and you said I dont have time for nonsense or something like that. You know you said it.

Wow, this is very convincing. I would never call any scripture nonsense and you know it. If you're just going to lie like this then I have no interest in discussing anything with you.

I dunno if you mean Daniel is nonsense or what Jesus said is nonsense, but you did say it.

Show me then, liar. Show me where I called something in Daniel or something that Jesus said was nonsense.

Perhaps not outright but you said what I said is nonsense

Oh, now you're backtracking. You have no idea how much of a fool you're making out of yourself.

and all I said was...Jesus said we'll see it come to pass what Daniel the Prophet said so maybe we should go take a look at what Daniel said...and if your reply is that is nonsense (what I said) then you are indirectly calling God's word nonsense because that what's I was talking about! God's word.

I would never call God's word nonsense and never have. You are apparently trying to distract from the extreme weakness of your doctrine with this nonsense. I guess I might be tempted to do that too if I wasn't able to coherently back up my doctrine.

So you did in my mind.

I couldn't care less if you think I did that. I know I didn't. I have the highest regard for God's word. May He strike me dead immediately if I ever called His word nonsense.

You didnt say yes what does Daniel say? You said Nonsense!

Your doctrine is nonsense. I have no problem saying that. But, the book of Daniel is not nonsense and I've never said that.

S go hug your pastor and give him a 5 buck offering and you guys can come back and insult us pretribbers some more, lol.

You guys do that when you have no intelliegent answer.

What intelligent answers have you given? None that I've seen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop twisting what he said, he intimated you were talking nonsense, which is more accurate.

We have blatant liars on this forum and it's sad to see. They feel no guilt for their lying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly bro! This is what they do in each thread when they have lost the debate. They are totally incapable of exegeting a text because there is no text in Scripture that teaches their error. It is all from the Left Behind novels.

It's appropriate that the most well known presentation of the pretrib dispensational doctrine is found within fictional novels since it's a fictional doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Old Testamen unbelieving Israel was always destined to be replaced by believing Israel, the Church whether, Jew and Gentiles.

I wonder, do they think Paul teaches replacement theology in Romans 11? We simply believe what he taught there. If that's called replacement theology, then I have no problem with believing in that.

But, the reality is that Gentile believers did not replace unbelieving Israelites. Instead, unbelieving Israelites were cut off and believing Gentiles were grafted in with Israelite believers in one good olive tree (one body of Christ, the church). I do not see that as anyone being replaced because even if there were no Israelite unbelievers to be cut off, Gentile believers would have still been grafted in. It isn't as if Gentile believers could not be grafted in without unbelieving Israelites being cut off to make room for them.

 

[MA2444]

I couldn't care less if you think I did that. I know I didn't. I have the highest regard for God's word. May He strike me dead immediately if I ever called His word nonsense.

So you attached my name to it, but seeing as how what I was speaking about is what Jesus and Daniel said and that was the question, then your nonsense comment to me is because of what they said. Or what you didnt want to look at or discuss. Which is the very scripture itself. You wont address any scripture! You just say, Nonsense! And think that's adequete?

No you cant with any honor just sit back and take potshots with insults to dodge looking at what the scripture says so you say my doctrine is nonsense and wont ever even attempt a real interpretaion of those scripture passages.

In other words...if I'm so wrong then tell me what those exact passages really mean? Dont debate like a woman. If you (continue) to not offer a correction to the truth makes it seem like you debate like a woman. That' how men talk. I will tell you what's up and I did. You say I am wrong and wont counter it beyond "Uh-Uhh". Thats lame.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why the rapture cannot be post-trib. verses from Matthew 24:

1. no man knows the day nor hour, but God the Father only.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Do you ever look at context? What day or hour was Jesus talking about there? All we need to do is look at the previous verses to see what day and hour He was talking about.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

It is very easy to see what day and hour Jesus was talking about here. He was talking about the day and hour of His second coming and gathering of His people that will occur "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days". The day that "this generation" and "heaven and earth shall pass away". How in the world do you get a pretrib rapture from Matthew 24:36? That is completely ludicrous. Jesus said no one knows the day and hour of His second coming and the rapture (gathering of His people, which are the elect) and He very clearly indicated that it would be POST-TRIB. It couldn't be more clear and you still miss it.

2. the world will be at ease, not in great tribulation at the time of Jesus's coming for the rapture.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Scripture teaches great spiritual tribulation before the rapture, not great physical tribulation. Learn from Paul...

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul indicated that the biggest signs of Christ's coming when the rapture occurs is that there will be a mass falling away from the faith and the man of sin would be revealed first before that. No mention of any physical tribulation being a sign of His soon return. Instead, like Jesus indicated in Matthew 24:10-13 and Matthew 24:23-26, there would be many turning away from the faith because of an increased level of deception and wickedness and that would be what would indicate that His coming and the rapture would be near.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you attached my name to it, but seeing as how what I was speaking about is what Jesus and Daniel said and that was the question, then your nonsense comment to me is because of what they said. Or what you didnt want to look at or discuss. Which is the very scripture itself. You wont address any scripture! You just say, Nonsense! And think that's adequete?

I won't address any scripture? Are you kidding me? I have addressed far more scripture than you ever have and you are telling me this? I'm done with your lies and nonsense. This is a waste of time. I'd rather talk to honest adults.

 

[WPM]

WOW. I'm not sure how many times you need to be told I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. I do believe in a 70th week of Daniel.

What do you mean by this? What are you talking about? This is all gibberish or theological double-speak.

1. Where is there any mention of the Church in Daniel 9.
2. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is the second coming of Christ mentioned and Daniel 9?
5. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
6. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
8. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
9. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
11. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
12. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Here is a pretrib verse. Are you able to comprehend what ESCAPE ALL THESE THING MEANS? You must know what that means because you tried to change the Greek in an attempt to fool everyone. But you were caught trying to deceive believers.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The problem is: you cannot even acknowledge what Jesus is talking about in the actual passage. You are unwilling to accept the meaning of His message here, the fact there is no tribulation even mentioned or see the absolutely climactic nature of His return.

I will repeat what i previously presented, and show the parallel usage by Paul, that gives us similar insight:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return.

After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.

 

[WPM]

We have blatant liars on this forum and it's sad to see. They feel no guilt for their lying.

If it wasn't for those watching on who need to see the folly of Pretrib, you would not even waste your time.

 

[WPM]

How? I've been trying for days to get your wife to turn to the book of Daniel and she refuses.

Then you weirdos say they have no scripture...

You have already admitted what I alleged in the Op: Pretrib has nothing in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you mean by this? What are you talking about? This is all gibberish or theological double-speak.

1. Where is there any mention of the Church in Daniel 9.
2. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is the second coming of Christ mentioned and Daniel 9?
5. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
6. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
8. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
9. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
11. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
12. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?



The problem is: you cannot even acknowledge what Jesus is talking about in the actual passage. You are unwilling to accept the meaning of His message here, the fact there is no tribulation even mentioned or see the absolutely climactic nature of His return.

I will repeat what i previously presented, and show the parallel usage by Paul, that gives us similar insight:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return.

After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught you (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.

This post contains a very thorough exegesis of scripture using very sound logic and reasoning. So, pretribs will naturally have no interest in it since exegesis and sound reasoning are foreign concepts to them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If it wasn't for those watching on who need to see the folly of Pretrib, you would not even waste your time.

That is the truth. I wish we could somehow know how many lurkers there are, but I'll assume there are enough of them to make this worth it.