The 7 year Tribulation and the 7 year 70th 'week' (better translated 'seven')

[KUWN]

Daniel's 70th seven (of years) is recorded in Dan 9.27 where we are told that mid way through this time (3 1/2 years) of trouble he (the Antichrist) will bring an end to sacrifices and offerings. So, the 70th seven is divided into two halves. In Revelation we are told that half of the 70th seven is 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years). So both halves equal 7 years, and this is where we get the notion of a 7 year Tribulation. The word tribulation (thlipsis) is used in the NT to refer to both halves of the 70th seven. For example, in Matt 24.9 we read about the thlipsis before the mid way point. Of course, Jesus calls the second half the Great Tribulation (thlipsis). As you can see, the future Tribulation last for 7 years.

Most assume that the 7 year Tribulation is the same as the 7 year 70th seven. This will have to be discussed in another post.

 

[Douggg]

So both halves equal 7 years, and this is where we get the notion of a 7 year Tribulation.

The notion of a 7 year "Tribulation" comes from modern times bible teachers using the terms - pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, rapture. i.e it is a habit of wording that got started, as the different sides argued about the timing.

Saying a 7 year "tribulation" is misleading, as the whole 7 years is not "tribulation".

Jesus in Matthew 24:21 does not say "tribulation", but "great tribulation". And in Revelation 17:14, the great multitude came out of "great tribulation".

What the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib terms really mean is in relationship to the 70th week of Daniel 9:27. i.e. pre-70th week, mid-70th week, post 70th week.

Therefore, to avoid confusion, and misleading terminology, it is best to say pre-70th week, mid-70th week, post 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

For example, in Matt 24.9 we read about the thlipsis before the mid way point.

No, that is not what Matthew 24:9 is indicating time wise on a timeline of the 7 year 70th week.

The timing is near the very end of the great tribulation, which will end with Jesus's Second Coming in Matthew 24:30b.

I divided the text up into blue and red, to explain.

The powers of heaven shaken in verse 29 and the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven in verse 30 - is right at the very end of the 70th week. 1290 days after the abomination of desolation statue image has been setup. It is the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:12-17.



Seeing Jesus, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14), will terrify the wicked of the world. And for 45 days they will prepare to make war on Jesus. The 45 cays comes from Daniel 12:11-12, i.e. 1335 days - 1290 days

At the end of the 45 days, Jesus descends to earth - the text in red.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[KUWN]

No, that is not what Matthew 24:9 is indicating time wise on a timeline of the 7 year 70th week.

The timing is near the very end of the great tribulation, which will end with Jesus's Second Coming in Matthew 24:30b.

Matt 24.15 is the Abomination of Desolation, which occurs after verse 9.

 

[KUWN]

Saying a 7 year "tribulation" is misleading, as the whole 7 years is not "tribulation".

The entire 7 years will be tribulation, the second half of the tribulation is the great tribulation.

I agree one can say 7 year 70th week. But i don't see where the 70th week differs from the 7 year Tribulation

 

[Douggg]

The entire 7 years will be tribulation, the second half of the tribulation is the great tribulation.

I agree one can say 7 year 70th week. But i don't see where the 70th week differs from the 7 year Tribulation

What sort of tribulation are you saying takes place in the first few years of the 70th week ?

 

[Douggg]

Matt 24.15 is the Abomination of Desolation, which occurs after verse 9.

Matthew 24:15 does not take place until after verse 14....

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We are living in the time of the end.

 

[KUWN]

What sort of tribulation are you saying takes place in the first few years of the 70th week ?

Rev 6.
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other.

This is just one part of the tribulation in the first half of the 70th week. With the second seal, there is war. And in fact, the first seal he goes out conquering. The 1st have of the Trib has a lot of trouble and tribulation. The 2nd half has more intensive tribulation. But, the whole 7 years is tribulation. The word for tribulation is thlipsis and this is used in connection with both halves.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 6.
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other.

This is just one part of the tribulation in the first half of the 70th week. With the second seal, there is war. And in fact, the first seal he goes out conquering. The 1st have of the Trib has a lot of trouble and tribulation. The 2nd half has more intensive tribulation. But, the whole 7 years is tribulation. The word for tribulation is thlipsis and this is used in connection with both halves.

Here is a chart I made of the seven seals. War does indeed break out in the second seal, as peace is taken from the earth. That will be when the Antichrist goes into the temple of God, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. The ToD act, Transgression of Desolation act of Daniel 8:12-13. (shown on my chart below).

In Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has strangers come against him for his audacious sit-in act - and they assassinate him. In Revelation 13, we read that the person who becomes the beast was mortally wounded, but comes back to life. So the path of the person to his end destruction into the lake of fire continues another 42 months as the beast-king.

He is brought back to life in Isaiah 14:18-20, because God has great disdain for the person, and will not allow him to rest in place of the dead, because as a Jew, he destroys his land and his people. And also as the strong delusion that God sends to them who will have believed his claim of having achieved God-hood. 2Thessalonians2:11.

 

[CTK]

Daniel's 70th seven (of years) is recorded in Dan 9.27 where we are told that mid way through this time (3 1/2 years) of trouble he (the Antichrist) will bring an end to sacrifices and offerings. So, the 70th seven is divided into two halves. In Revelation we are told that half of the 70th seven is 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years). So both halves equal 7 years, and this is where we get the notion of a 7 year Tribulation. The word tribulation (thlipsis) is used in the NT to refer to both halves of the 70th seven. For example, in Matt 24.9 we read about the thlipsis before the mid way point. Of course, Jesus calls the second half the Great Tribulation (thlipsis). As you can see, the future Tribulation last for 7 years.

Most assume that the 7 year Tribulation is the same as the 7 year 70th seven. This will have to be discussed in another post.

Have you ever considered that these extremely important four verses are indeed Messianic? Because they are!

Part 1

Please consider this view as it will be found to be a complete or mostly complete departure from "today's accepted interpretations," that have their genesis within the RCC during the late 1500's as a counter measure to the then accepted claim the papacy was the "little horn"of Daniel 7 and 8. Unfortunately, they were widely successful and with the strength, breath of their holdings and sheer power around the world, this new interpretation would be spread throughout their churches, their schools, their writings, etc., and this would be taught to every generation for the next 500 years. And today, this has become "today's accepted interpretation."

Here is essentially what their new interpretation promoted:

1) the "he" in verse 9:27 was not the Messiah but some mythical anti-Christ figure,
2) this character would come some 2000 years in the future,
3) this character would enter into an agreement with Israel for a 7 year period,
4) in the midst of the 7 years, he would renege on this agreement,
5) at this time it would usher in the great tribulation period of 3.5 years,
6) he would be directly responsible for the destruction of a 3rd Temple, Sanctuary, etc.,


So that is how the 7 year tribulation theory came about and how it stands today among perhaps 99 % of Christians. It is almost impossible to find evey one academic, scholar, theologian that has studied Daniel or wrote papers on the Book of Daniel that has not accepted this interpretation and even added their own voice to it. However, it is entirely false.

Rather than simply state that this verse means this, not that, and I disagree with that and here is my interpretation, perhaps it might be appropriate to take a very different view on the Book of Daniel before anyone starts to be very selective in extracting certain verses in this book and construct their own non- messianic interpretation that mirrors the one designed by the RCC (the little horn of Daniel).


So, what is the Book of Daniel all about? It is about the end times? It is a prophetic writing about the coming of an "anti-Christ" actor some 2000 years in the future? Is it primarily concerned with the physical elements within Jerusalem - the Temple, the city and the Sanctuary, and the walls and the streets? Is it about this mythical creature who will enter into an agreement some 2000 years in the future with Israel? It is absolutely about NONE of these things!!!!!!!

So why was Daniel written and what does God want us to see within these 12 chapters? The big picture will allow us to interpret just how these many difficult verses should be viewed... if they do not reveal the details within this big picture but fall outside the scope of the "picture on the outside of the box," they should be discarded. It is not that difficult to see the four straight borders that God has given us that forms the outline of this picture on this puzzle. Once we identifry the straight pieces of this puzzle we know the outline and all the other 1000 pieces of the puzzle must be placed WITHIN these four sides.


So what picture of the Book of Daniel is on the outside of the box? Here it is.

Daniel is writing about AND TO his people and the city of Jerusalem - not some folks some 2000 years in the future. As a result of their continued disobedience to their God, and the almost 20 years of warnings from Jeremish to repent, God would send the Babylonians to completely destroy the city, the Temple, the Sanctuary, the walls and the streets, take the sacred vessels away and also carry His people to Babylon as punishment. So, this just might represent all of the straight pieces in this puzzle for the entire "left side" of this puzzle. This tells us the starting time, and the specific actors involved. It we were to stop here, there would be enough pieces placed togerther to give us a good idea of what this puzzle picture might look at. So far, the

Daniel is writing about AND TO his people and the city of Jerusalem - not some folks some 2000 years in the future. As a result of their continued disobedience to their God, and the almost 20 years of warnings from Jeremih to repent, God would send the Babylonians to completely destroy the city, the Temple, the Sanctuary, the walls and the streets, take the sacred vessels away and also carry His people to Babylon as punishment. So, this just might represent all of the straight pieces in this puzzle for the entire "left side" of this puzzle. This tells us the starting time, and the specific actors involved. It we were to stop here, there would be enough pieces placed together to give us a good idea of what this puzzle picture might look at. We have Jerusalem completely shown as being destroyed, their people now held captive in Babylon. Not a bad start for this very difficult 1000 piece puzzle.


If we move on to Chapter 2, God will now give us all the necessary pieces that will form the complete top of this puzzle picture. He will reveal a four part metal man that will begin its life in Babylon (top left of the puzzle), and continue to the far right side of the entire puzzle. Thus, the next set of puzzle pieces adjacent to the top left corner would be those pieces that are seen to be those that have conquered the first kingdom. These pieces would have the faces of Darius or Cyrus on them and fit nicely next to the top left pieces of the puzzle. It would be easy to then identify those straight pieces that now have the face of Alexander on them and his 3rd kingdom of Greece. They would fit perfectly with the ends of the Mede-Persian pieces. And again, we are only constructed the outer edges of the puzzle picture – we are not interested in the “field pieces” at this time. At the end of the metal man image would come the 4th and final kingdom of Rome. Rome would not only fit nicely with the ends of the Greek pieces but have the necessary “straight” edges that would form both the top of the picture puzzle and the straight right side of the picture puzzle. That is it – we have the left, the top and the right side of this puzzle picture…. really easy.


Now that we have 3 of the 4 straight sides of the puzzle completed, the remaining straight side – the bottom will be a no-brainer. It really will not be very difficult to locate these “straight pieces” because they will represent the end of each of the four kingdoms in the metal man image. We don’t have to focus on them at this time because by having the 3 of the 4 completed, we know that all of the remaining pieces must be placed within this framed picture.

 

[CTK]

Daniel's 70th seven (of years) is recorded in Dan 9.27 where we are told that mid way through this time (3 1/2 years) of trouble he (the Antichrist) will bring an end to sacrifices and offerings. So, the 70th seven is divided into two halves. In Revelation we are told that half of the 70th seven is 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years). So both halves equal 7 years, and this is where we get the notion of a 7 year Tribulation. The word tribulation (thlipsis) is used in the NT to refer to both halves of the 70th seven. For example, in Matt 24.9 we read about the thlipsis before the mid way point. Of course, Jesus calls the second half the Great Tribulation (thlipsis). As you can see, the future Tribulation last for 7 years.

Most assume that the 7 year Tribulation is the same as the 7 year 70th seven. This will have to be discussed in another post.

Part 2

If we were to take a quick look at the picture on the outside of the box, we might see (within the field) some actors and events that would take place with in each of the four kingdoms: we might see some details of those events that took place within the time of Nebuchadnezzar. As we move to the middle, there would be pieces that provides details of the second kingdom, and then move onto the right, would be other pieces adjacent to the Medes-Persian events that reveal the conquests of Alexander. So we are always aware that the top straight pieces identify each kingdom, and therefore, the pieces that will fall below them must also provide the details WITHIN that kingdom. And this will continue until we locate those pieces that might have the face of the Romans on them that will fit nicely with the right edges of the Greek pieces within the field. Pretty soon, we just might be finished, however, it is where the bottom “field” pieces WITHIN THE FOURTH KINGDOM ONLY that will be problematic. Not because they do not perfectly fit with the adjacent Greek pieces but because they have been told they do not belong within this puzzle but to another puzzle box.

It is this lower right section of the puzzle that has been corrupted. The pieces that are designed to fit perfectly within this section of the puzzle have been taken away leaving a very incomplete puzzle picture. These very important puzzle pieces must be restored to this puzzle so it mirrors the picture on the front of the box. These pieces specifically relate to the part of the picture within the 4th kingdom that covers the final week of the most important Messianic prophecy in the history of mankind and all of the Bible.



So what is on the outside of this box? It is God’s prophecies that begin with His people being taken captive to Babylon for 70 years for their continued disobedience. Within that period Daniel will be given the 70 weeks of years prophecy that has as it purpose the complete restoration of Jerusalem and His people as they were prior to the Babylonian destruction. This prophecy will begin when the Jews have left Babylon in the second kingdom period of the Medes-Persians. In a decree ordained by God. The 70 weeks of years prophecy will begin in 457 BC.


Again, the big picture on the outside of the box is the taken away of the Jews (left side of the puzzle) and the full or complete restoration of His people and His city (right side of the puzzle). If we focus ONLY on verses 9:24-27, we will find all the pieces of the puzzle that fit perfectly within the lower right side of the puzzle. It will present all of the actors and events that will take place within these 70 weeks of years and brings us almost to the far right corner of the bottom of the puzzle picture (the only remaining straight pieces that have not been placed are those found in Chapter 12 will speak, without any real details of the end times, but do refer to the “time of the end.” All other pieces belong WITHIN this puzzle.

Again, the Book of Daniel is written to His people and His city, and is concerned with the full restoration of both…. The 70 weeks prophecy speaks to this and only this.

These pictures on the outside of these very specific puzzle pieces, when fitted together, and within the field of this puzzle picture in the lower right side of the framed puzzle, looks like this:

Pieces that reveal the picture of the Jews restoring the Temple, the city, the walls and the streets within the first 7 weeks of the prophecy which began in 457 BC,

The only item that was not restored by the end of the 69th week would be the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant which was taken away by Jeremiah prior to the Babylonian invasion.

The Ark of the Covenant or the Presence of God in the Sanctuary MUST be restored to complete the full restoration. The only one who could restore the Presence of God (Ark) in the Sanctuary, would be God Himself in the form of the coming Messiah. Thus, He would arrive exactly and only after all the physical elements would be restored by the Jews. The Messiah would arrive on the very first day of the 70th week (after 7 and 62 weeks, would the Messiah come). On this day, He would be baptized in the Jordan by John AND anointed by His Father from above. Now, His ministry, which was purposefully set aside for the last week of the prophecy would begin. This is the final 7 years – they belong right next to the other pieces of the puzzle that reveal or show the end of the 7 and 62 weeks pieces.

Therefore, these pieces that represent these four verses (24-27) fit perfectly together WITHIN the field in the lower right hand section of this puzzle.

Verse 24 is given to us which reveals the 6 requirements Jesus would fulfill DURING His 3.5 year ministry on earth.

Verse 25 reveals those pieces that reveal exactly when the physical elements of the restoration process will be completed. It also reveals the literal time the Messiah will arrive WITHIN this restoration process.

So, the puzzle pieces in verses 24 and 25 are both “restorative” puzzle pieces that provide the completion of the restoration process as found in the prophecy. Everything has been fully restored!

But unfortunately, God would have to add two additional verses to account for the decisions and actions that would literally take place AFTER all the elements in the restoration process were completed. As a result of the Jews rejection of their Messiah, God would now include two “destructive” verses – verses 26 and 27 to this prophecy. These two “destructive” verses would document what would happen AFTER He was rejected and crucified.

These two verses reflect the literal destruction of those exact same elements that were restored in the first two verses – 24 and 25. Now, the Messiah would be “cut off” in the midst of the week. This would take place AFTER the 62 weeks of years’ time element (which of course could only have occurred after the first 7 were completed). However, these verses also reveal the Messiah would indeed confirm the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 DURING THIS LAST WEEK (it is not a covenant FOR one week).

One should quickly and easily see how these four Messianic verses are interrelated - they form both sides of a chiastic structure.

Additionally, within these two “destructive” verses, God will reveal the consequences of His people’s rejection of Him with the destruction of the city, the Sanctuary, etc., that would take place in 70AD. The remaining prophecy relates to the punishment of His people for rejecting Him. They would be made to be “desolate” to their God for the next 2000 years.

It would be this most abominable act of rejecting and crucifying their God that would “cause” this level of desolation to their God.

So, these are the remaining puzzle pieces that fit perfectly in the lower right hand corner of this puzzle. These final pieces (26 and 27) flow directly down from pieces 24 and 25 in the far right hand section of the puzzle. The puzzle picture would be quite incomplete if these important pieces were sent to be included in a puzzle some 2000 years in the future. That 1000 picture puzzle has its very own structure and very different picture on the front of its box – that puzzle picture is the Book of Revelation and it has all of its pieces within its prophetic box.

 

[KUWN]

Here is essentially what their new interpretation promoted:

1) the "he" in verse 9:27 was not the Messiah but some mythical anti-Christ figure,
2) this character would come some 2000 years in the future,
3) this character would enter into an agreement with Israel for a 7 year period,
4) in the midst of the 7 years, he would renege on this agreement,
5) at this time it would usher in the great tribulation period of 3.5 years,
6) he would be directly responsible for the destruction of a 3rd Temple, Sanctuary, etc.,

Thank you for taking the time to provide all this info. I have to admit I could not quite follow the puzzle as you were putting the pieces together. The first thing that confused me is your point 1) above. The "he" of 9.27 has always been understood as the actual Antichrist, not the Messiah. When you say "mythical" figure are you saying this figure is not an actual human being?

Point 2) I don't think Daniel saw this time table 2000 years into the future. The points 3) through 6) I would say that these points are all fulfilled in the 70th seven by the Antichrist.

I am sorry I could not follow your posts. What scholars hold to this position?

 

[CTK]

I Thank you for taking the time to provide all this info.

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my response and I am very sorry it came across as confusing or difficult to understand. I believe I may have once again attempted to put 100 lbs. into a 10 lb. response.

I have to admit I could not quite follow the puzzle as you were putting the pieces together. The first thing that confused me is your point 1) above. The "he" of 9.27 has always been understood as the actual Antichrist, not the Messiah.

You are right.. 99% of “today’s accepted interpretations” wrongfully interpret “he” as some mythical / contrived literal figure that comes some 2000 years in the future. This was a purposefully misinterpretation created in the 16th century by the RCC. In addition, they took the messianic phrases within 9:27 and had them also be attributed to this “anti-Christ” actor. But it should be very easy to see they speak clearly to the Messiah who arrived in the last week of the prophecy.

Examples: it was “HE” the Messiah who promised in Jeremiah 31:41-34 to confirm the New Covenant,
It was the Messiah who would confirm this covenant DURING/WITHIN this last week of the prophecy (it is NOT a 7 year agreement- the word “for” is incorrect. It was the Messiah who was “cut off” in the “midst of the week (exactly 3.5 years of this 7 year week). The last 7 years of the prophecy was the beginning of the Messiah’s ministry. - although He was crucified in the middle of the 7 years, He fulfilled all 6 of His God given mission requirements (9:24). The 70 year prophecy would come to an end within 3.5 years of the prophecy. The 490 year span / period was over.

When you say "mythical" figure are you saying this figure is not an actual human being?

Yes, there is absolutely NO scriptural verse or support in the NT that says an “anti-Christ” actual / literal person will come on the earth. Not in Daniel, not in 1John and not in Revelation. There are indeed two things that ARE given to us in the Scriptures:

1) In Daniel 7 and 8, we are given a great deal of information regarding the “little horn” who will come out of the 4th kingdom. He WILL BE A MAN WITH EYES AND A MOUTH SPEAKING POMPOUS THINGS AGAINST GOD.

2) There are a few places where the “spirit of the anti-Christ” is found, but ONLY the “spirit” - meaning there will be many or could be anyone that “has the spirit of the anti-Christ.” That is, anyone preaching a different gospel than Jesus. But NO literal person.

Point 2) I don't think Daniel saw this time table 2000 years into the future.

I agree but what I was saying it that “today’s accepted interpretations” have sent out much of the prophetic meaning from 9:27 to some 2000 years in the future. Daniel’s writings speak to the Jews who were returning to Jerusalem.

The points 3) through 6) I would say that these points are all fulfilled in the 70th seven by the Antichrist.

No, the 70th week belonged to Jesus. They apply to Him!

I am sorry I could not follow your posts. What scholars hold to this position?

Sorry for the confusion… I tried to create a way to see how these verses in Daniel can be seen as a puzzle and all the pieces in Daniel can be nicely fitted together to form the picture on the outside of the puzzle box- like those everyone grew up playing.

Thanks again.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, there is absolutely NO scriptural verse or support in the NT that says an “anti-Christ” actual / literal person will come on the earth. Not in Daniel, not in 1John and not in Revelation.

Do you believe that there will be the beast person in Revelation 13 in the future, who will be worshiped and continue for 42 months ?

Revelation 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[Jay Ross]

Do you believe that there will be the beast person in Revelation 13 in the future, who will be worshiped and continue for 42 months ?

Revelation 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

No, because the scripture does not support this proposition.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL, some guys are like blind leading the blind with their flawed 7 years doctrine. Sad. No such thing as 7 years tribulation. No such thing as "beast king" where Jewish Man claimed to be king. False doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

No, because the scripture does not support this proposition.

If you don't believe that the beast is a person - that people will worship in Revelation 13:8 - then what is the beast that people will worship him?

 

[Jay Ross]

If you don't believe that the beast is a person - that people will worship in Revelation 13:8 - then what is the beast that people will worship him?

A wicked fallen heavenly host who will be judged in our near future and then imprisoned for 1,000 years in the Bottomless pit before rising up out of the ground from the pit after it has been unlocked after his imprisonment for 1,000 years. This is still a distant future event.

 

[Douggg]

A wicked fallen heavenly host who will be judged in our near future and then imprisoned for 1,000 years in the Bottomless pit before rising up out of the ground from the pit after it has been unlocked after his imprisonment for 1,000 years. This is still a distant future event.

Please clarify, Jay. Are you saying the beast will be Satan ?

 

[Jay Ross]

Please clarify, Jay.

What I am saying is that the beast is a wicked fallen heavenly host, i.e. a fallen angel.

I do not see that the entity of the beast or the false Prophet is of a human form/being as you want to claim.