The 4 Eternal Destinies of Humankind

[Johann]

The deceit is IN the modern message. You have already fully accepted the lie.

Where do I attempt to close the barn door after the horse already departed?

If we love God we are to obey Him..not just accept Jesus as OUR personal sacrifice. The devil is mocking the gullibility of humans by a false gospel that upholds the flesh...and avoids the cross.

Believers in Christ Jesus are to crucify the flesh, right? Those that avoids the cross are not saved.

The modern gospel is based on lawlessness...not grace or salvation. Changing the meaning of words goes a long way to deceiving people who rely on words rather than on an actual encounter with God. After that encounter no amount of words can describe it...and words don't get in the way of a proper understanding. Not so the indoctrinated ones who think they will be judged based on the accuracy of their beliefs. Can these not read? Can these not count? Not when a religious ideology is running the show.

Your beliefs are like divine "visitations" similar to what Paul experienced. However, there are some individuals who seem detached from practical reality, living in a kind of idealistic fantasy. I notice you often use the term "ideology," and I don’t share your views or the specific interpretation of the gospel you advocate.

It's like trying to close the barn door after the horse has already escaped.

I would encourage you to seek guidance on where your true calling and gifts lie. It seems that your vocation may not be in preaching or teaching the gospel.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus saves us from what exactly?
Even in the natural world, God shows to man there is only life and death.

In the spiritual kingdom of God Jesus says there is only this, the resurrection of life or the resurrection of condemnation.
However, I do think there are levels of Hell, some with worse and some less punishment. God himself talks of His wrath burning to the lowest hell. All condemned go to hell, while all justified, heaven, and there are levels of heaven. Scripture talks of the seventh heaven.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

There is life in Christ, only for believers in Christ or dying in your sins, for non-believers in Christ.
The same dichotomy, natural life and death, spiritual life and death, and God has shown this to all mankind,
so, they are without excuse.

John 5

Honor the Father and the Son​

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, [d]and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[Scott Downey]

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Only those who HEAR the voice of God through Christ will live.
Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing comes by the word of God.

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Being enabled by God to hear the WORD of God is of God and not of a man.

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

I hope you enjoy reading the WORD of God, cause only in Him can you live, be made alive from the dead.

John 8 for relevance.

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift[m] up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

The Truth Shall Make You Free​

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s​

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Before Abraham Was, I AM​

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going[p] through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Lizbeth]

No, people don't become Christians that way.

People are challenged to "make a decision" for Christ....or else they are socialized by attending a church and begin to make declarations of their newfound and accepted beliefs. Still others become believers through investigation.

And this can be done on the street level. This is about recruitment, a first step...a starting line so to speak.

But too often people are led to believe that they have salvation for this. Of course if people continue in faithfulness to Christ till the end they will be saved. But so often what is being preached actually inoculates people from the truth.

People don't become Christians by being "recruited" either. It is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit to convert the soul and make one alive spiritually...aka born of the Spirit. Was this not your experience when you came to faith? Was it? Otherwise the scripture says they are none of His.

 

[Behold]

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous,

Without the Gift of Righteousness, that is imputed by God, through faith, no one is righteous.

Christians are former sinners who have been "made righteous" by God, having received "the gift of righteousness".

There is no other way a sinner can become "righteous"..

The very purpose of God's intent, by sending Jesus to the Cross, is to deal with sin, and provide His righteousness as a Gift.

See, when Jesus said....>"no person goes to the Father, except through me".... He is teaching that His Righteousness is the only Way to God, and to receive it, is the only way a sinner, can gain it.., and thereby become "one with God".

Cross denying Heretics, will never understand this, as you must be born again, to understand it..

See, a unregenerate sinner has no spiritual discernment, and that is why their pretend Theology, has no Jesus in it, according to HOW God has provided Him, as Eternal life and forgiveness of sin.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are trying to close the barn door after the horse has already departed. The deceit is IN the modern message. You have already fully accepted the lie.

If we love God we are to obey Him..not just accept Jesus as OUR personal sacrifice. The devil is mocking the gullibility of humans by a false gospel that upholds the flesh...and avoids the cross.

I speak of discipleship, holiness, the power of the cross, and kingdom life, and people react as if those things were evil. Why? Because they have believed a lie...a great delusion.

The modern gospel is based on lawlessness...not grace or salvation. Changing the meaning of words goes a long way to deceiving people who rely on words rather than on an actual encounter with God. After that encounter no amount of words can describe it...and words don't get in the way of a proper understanding. Not so the indoctrinated ones who think they will be judged based on the accuracy of their beliefs. Can these not read? Can these not count? Not when a religious ideology is running the show.

Of course we are to obey Him. Nobody here is saying otherwise I hope. That is not the issue that is being debated.

 

[Behold]

How to understand God's Righteousness.

1.) First, you have to understand that its God's, and you dont have it, unless God causes you to become "made righteousness".

How does a sinner know that they dont have it?
Because they are a sinner, and you, and me, were one of those before we Trusted in Christ and God caused us to receive His "Gift of Righteousness"... after He forgave all our sin, by The Cross of Christ... first.

2.) Then God gives us "the gift of Righteousness" and that is how the SINNER, becomes a SAINT... having received forgiveness of all sin, and by receiving God's "Gift of Righteousness", and this is proven by the BELIEVER becoming Born again.

Reader, there is no righteousness found in a unsaved SINNER.... , and never believe incredible self righteous liars who try to pretend that you have some, unless God gave you His own as "the GIFT of Righteousness", which proves you have become a "new Creation in Christ".

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus saves us from what exactly?
Even in the natural world, God shows to man there is only life and death.

Yes, an initial salvation...or first cut. saved FROM the world. The first step in a race is at the starting line, not the finish line.

In the spiritual kingdom of God Jesus says there is only this, the resurrection of life or the resurrection of condemnation.
However, I do think there are levels of Hell, some with worse and some less punishment. God himself talks of His wrath burning to the lowest hell. All condemned go to hell, while all justified, heaven, and there are levels of heaven. Scripture talks of the seventh heaven.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

This is at the Bema seat judgment...for the house of God. There are 2 resurrections. And there is both a good outcome and bad outcome in each. 2x2=4. So you have cited a description of the first resurrection. Don't think you can make a global doctrine based on one verse. And if you watch the video....you will find that there are indeed verses that describe all 4 destinies in one go.

The Bema set judgment. This resurrection and judgment is covered in Daniel.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan. 12:2

Here it says....MANY...not ALL. The rest of the world is judged at the GWT. First comes the judgment at the house of God.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

There is life in Christ, only for believers in Christ or dying in your sins, for non-believers in Christ.
The same dichotomy, natural life and death, spiritual life and death, and God has shown this to all mankind,
so, they are without excuse.

John 5

You are not getting the fact that there is a hard judgment for believers. Read the bible. Judgment begins at the house of God. The world is judged separately...a thousand years after the first resurrection and Bema judgment. Could this be the first time you hear of this? How long have you been a believer?

Honor the Father and the Son​

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, [d]and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Believers are NOT condemned with the world. That's the first cut...coming out of Egypt into the wilderness. So you are stuck on the starting line...as most are these days.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

This is referring to the GWT and the judgment of the whole world. Notice it is by works that the righteous, the meek are judged...those who have DONE good. Their names are recorded in the book of life.

 

[Johann]

2x2=4.

Where your "counting is error--

Daniel 12:2, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt," is a profound verse that addresses the theme of resurrection and final judgment.

Parsing the Verse
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"

"many of them that sleep": This phrase refers to the dead, using the metaphor of sleep for death, common in biblical literature (e.g., John 11:11-13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15).
"in the dust of the earth": This phrase emphasizes the state of death and burial, recalling Genesis 3:19, where humanity returns to dust.
"shall awake": This indicates a future resurrection, where the dead will be raised.
"some to everlasting life"

This indicates that a portion of those resurrected will receive eternal life, a state of eternal blessing and communion with God.
"and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

This part of the verse highlights that another portion will face eternal disgrace and abhorrence, a state of eternal punishment.
Cross-Referencing the Verse
Resurrection and Judgment

John 5:28-29: "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
Acts 24:15: "There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
Everlasting Life

Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Everlasting Contempt

Isaiah 66:24: "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Revelation 20:15: "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Does the Verse Imply Four Eternal Destinies?
The verse explicitly mentions two destinies:

Everlasting life: A positive, blessed state for the righteous.
Shame and everlasting contempt: A negative, cursed state for the wicked.

The concept of four eternal destinies is not directly supported by this verse alone. The traditional Christian eschatological framework typically includes two main destinies post-resurrection:

Heaven (eternal life) for the righteous.
Hell (eternal punishment) for the wicked.

However, some theological interpretations suggest variations within these primary destinies, such as different levels of reward or punishment, but these are not directly addressed in Daniel 12:2. To explore this idea further, additional biblical texts and theological interpretations would need to be considered.

Thus, Daniel 12:2 delineates two primary eternal outcomes rather than four, emphasizing the binary nature of final judgment and resurrection.

Why not delete your video clip?

 

[Episkopos]

The concept of four eternal destinies is not directly supported by this verse alone. The traditional Christian eschatological framework typically includes two main destinies post-resurrection:

Heaven (eternal life) for the righteous.
Hell (eternal punishment) for the wicked.

The "traditional"...or based on the traditions of men framework...comes from Islam. Heaven and hell are not a duality found in the bible..but in the Koran. So the influence is there. Also pagan religions also have become part of the "tradition" of men concerning Christianity.


The bible speaks of "heaven and earth". As in...on earth as it is in heaven". "Heaven and hell" is the title of a heavy metal album, I believe.

I have cited the single verses that support the 4 eternal destinies in the video. Based on sound apostolic doctrine which is itself based on sound Torah teaching.

But a teaching is not always laid out in one verse. That's why the bible has some thickness to it! ;)

For your own understanding of the bible I refer you to the "little book" in revelation 10. That's the version with all the deeper aspects of the truth cut out. At first it seems sweet....but it gets bitter in the end. The QUALITY of salvation is the issue here. Vessels of dishonour do NOT fear the Lord or are teachable, but rather these rely on religious indoctrination to name and claim things that come back to judge them. We see this with the destiny of the "filthy" or unclean...unsanctified.

 

[Johann]

The "traditional"...or based on the traditions of men framework...comes from Islam. Heaven and hell are not a duality in the bible..but in the Koran. So the influence is there. Also pagan religions also have become part of the "tradition" of men concerning Christianity.

And HERE is where you go wrong @Episkopos -

Traditional Christian Eschatology
Biblical Foundations: The concepts of heaven and hell are rooted in the Bible, predating Islam by centuries.

Heaven: Frequently depicted as the dwelling place of God and the ultimate destination for the righteous (e.g., Matthew 5:12; John 14:2-3; Revelation 21:1-4).
Hell: Described as a place of punishment for the wicked (e.g., Matthew 25:41, 46; Mark 9:43; Revelation 20:14-15).
Development in Early Christianity: Early Christian theologians and texts elaborate on these concepts.

Early Church Fathers: Writings from figures like Augustine and Tertullian reflect a belief in a dualistic afterlife.
New Testament Evidence: The New Testament provides substantial evidence of a dualistic afterlife.

Jesus' Teachings: Jesus speaks of the righteous entering eternal life and the wicked going to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
Apostolic Writings: Apostles like Paul and John describe eternal destinies in terms of heaven and hell (e.g., 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 20:12-15).

Influence of Islam and Pagan Religions
Islamic Eschatology:

Chronology: The Qur'an and Islamic teachings emerged in the 7th century, long after the New Testament was written. Islamic eschatological beliefs share similarities with Christian doctrines but are not their source.
Content: The Qur'an includes descriptions of heaven (Jannah) and hell (Jahannam), but these are distinct from earlier Christian texts.
Pagan Influences:

Hellenistic Thought: Some argue that early Christian concepts of the afterlife were influenced by Hellenistic philosophies, such as those of Plato, which included notions of the soul’s immortality and the afterlife.

Syncretism: While syncretism with Greco-Roman and other pagan beliefs occurred, the core biblical texts predate these influences and maintain distinct theological premises.

Critique of the Assertion @Episkopos

Historical Accuracy: The assertion that Christian concepts of heaven and hell are derived from Islam is historically inaccurate due to the chronological precedence of Christian texts.

Biblical Evidence: The duality of afterlife destinies (heaven and hell) is well-attested within the Bible itself, making it a core aspect of Christian doctrine independent of later Islamic or pagan influences.

Doctrinal Consistency: Christian doctrines regarding the afterlife have remained relatively consistent from the early church to modern times, emphasizing biblical authority over external influences.


While it is true that various religious and philosophical systems have interacted and sometimes influenced each other, the traditional Christian eschatological framework of heaven and hell is primarily grounded in biblical texts. The assertion that this duality is borrowed from Islamic or pagan traditions overlooks the clear and early presence of these concepts within the Christian Scriptures themselves.

So why not delete the video clip? It has been proven wrong-yes?

 

[Episkopos]

And HERE is where you go wrong @Episkopos -

Traditional Christian Eschatology
Biblical Foundations: The concepts of heaven and hell are rooted in the Bible, predating Islam by centuries.

Heaven: Frequently depicted as the dwelling place of God and the ultimate destination for the righteous (e.g., Matthew 5:12; John 14:2-3; Revelation 21:1-4).
Hell: Described as a place of punishment for the wicked (e.g., Matthew 25:41, 46; Mark 9:43; Revelation 20:14-15).
Development in Early Christianity: Early Christian theologians and texts elaborate on these concepts.

Early Church Fathers: Writings from figures like Augustine and Tertullian reflect a belief in a dualistic afterlife.
New Testament Evidence: The New Testament provides substantial evidence of a dualistic afterlife.

Jesus' Teachings: Jesus speaks of the righteous entering eternal life and the wicked going to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
Apostolic Writings: Apostles like Paul and John describe eternal destinies in terms of heaven and hell (e.g., 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 20:12-15).

Influence of Islam and Pagan Religions
Islamic Eschatology:

Chronology: The Qur'an and Islamic teachings emerged in the 7th century, long after the New Testament was written. Islamic eschatological beliefs share similarities with Christian doctrines but are not their source.
Content: The Qur'an includes descriptions of heaven (Jannah) and hell (Jahannam), but these are distinct from earlier Christian texts.
Pagan Influences:

Hellenistic Thought: Some argue that early Christian concepts of the afterlife were influenced by Hellenistic philosophies, such as those of Plato, which included notions of the soul’s immortality and the afterlife.

Syncretism: While syncretism with Greco-Roman and other pagan beliefs occurred, the core biblical texts predate these influences and maintain distinct theological premises.

Critique of the Assertion @Episkopos

Historical Accuracy: The assertion that Christian concepts of heaven and hell are derived from Islam is historically inaccurate due to the chronological precedence of Christian texts.

Biblical Evidence: The duality of afterlife destinies (heaven and hell) is well-attested within the Bible itself, making it a core aspect of Christian doctrine independent of later Islamic or pagan influences.

Doctrinal Consistency: Christian doctrines regarding the afterlife have remained relatively consistent from the early church to modern times, emphasizing biblical authority over external influences.


While it is true that various religious and philosophical systems have interacted and sometimes influenced each other, the traditional Christian eschatological framework of heaven and hell is primarily grounded in biblical texts. The assertion that this duality is borrowed from Islamic or pagan traditions overlooks the clear and early presence of these concepts within the Christian Scriptures themselves.

So why not delete the video clip? It has been proven wrong-yes?

A person with a two dimensional outlook will only see two dimensions. But that doesn't mean that reality is limited to one's perception. It takes the gift of faith and spiritual sight to see in four dimensions.

The same goes for limiting the bible to two destinies. Although one has to ignore plain bible verses that include all four destinies. That's no problem, of course, for people who are used to ignoring whatever doesn't fit a previous ideological stance that negates half the bible.

It becomes just one more way to prove a lack of honesty when it comes to the truth. Holding the truth in unrighteousness has never been so traditional.

 

[Episkopos]

For those who have reading skills and some honesty...notice the duality of heaven and earth that comes from the bible. And yet a false duality of heaven and hell persists. Just like the Pharisees of old...a tradition of men cancels out the truth.

Here is a challenge. I will state a few verses that show a proper duality...of heaven and earth....and someone can post a verse that backs up a duality of heaven and hell. I've added some colour for those who have difficulty following the narrative.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt. 6:10

Some here will not be able to read the above verses.... even with the colour added...but I appeal to any to provide proof from the bible of a duality of heaven and hell.

 

[Episkopos]

Other proper dualities into eternity include:

1. The saved of the nations and the lake of fire (GWT judgment). Based on the life and death perspective found in the Book of Life.

2. The holy of the city and the filthy outside the gates (Bema). Based on being written in Jerusalem as holy with the Lamb's Book of Life.


Notice what it says in Revelation concerning the city and those who were cast away at the Bema judgment...

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. Rev. 22:15

The above filthy ones are believers who have been saved....but unto dishonour. This is a direct result of failing at the Bema seat judgment. In a great house there are vessels of honour AND dishonour. I'm trying to get those who love the lie to see something different....the truth. Otherwise the risk of being cast away from God's presence forever is very great.

Knowing the terror of the Lord, I warn people.

 

[Johann]

For those who have reading skills and some honesty...notice the duality of heaven and earth that comes from the bible. And yet a false duality of heaven and hell persists. Just like the Pharisees of old...a tradition of men cancels out the truth.

Here is a challenge. I will state a few verses that show a proper duality...of heaven and earth....and someone can post a verse that backs up a duality of heaven and hell. I've added some colour for those who have difficulty following the narrative.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt. 6:10

Some here will not be able to read the above verses.... even with the colour added...but I appeal to any to provide proof from the bible of a duality of heaven and hell.

Very simple, you seem to not taking in account the two Definite Articles in THE heaven and THE earth--and can give you many proofs and examples-a honest answer and STILL perplexed how you arrived at 4 eternal destinies.

 

[Johann]

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. Rev. 22:15

The above filthy ones are believers who have been saved

Another erroneous statement--they were "saved?"

Rev_22:15

But outside . . Outside the "gates of the city" Rev_22:14 b.

But outside are dogs . . An term for male prostitutes.

Considered despicable creatures in NT times, the term when applied to people referred to anyone of low moral character. Unfaithful leaders (Isa_56:10) and homosexual prostitutes (Deu_23:18) are among those who received such a designation. - MSB

In Deu_23:18 this term refers to male prostitutes of the Canaanite fertility cult. In other parts of the Old and New Testaments it refers to wicked people (cf. Psa_22:16, Psa_22:20; Mat_7:6; and Php_3:2). - Utley

See Rom_1:27 note on GAYS (Homosexuals, Sodomites) and Lesbians In The Bible

dogs &c. . . The articles should be expressed, “the dogs, and the sorcerers (see on Rev_9:21, Rev_21:8), and the fornicators, and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone that loveth &c.”

and sorcerers . . (G5333) Those using drugs and occult practices.
φαρμακός, pharmakós; gen. pharmakoú, masc. noun. A magician, sorcerer, enchanter (Rev_21:8 [UBS]; Rev_22:15; Sept.: Exo_7:11; Exo_9:11; Deu_18:10; Dan_2:2). The same as pharmakeús (G5332). The noun pharmakeía (G5331) means the preparing and giving of medicine, and in the NT, sorcery, enchantment.
and sexually immoral . . Fornicators, (KJ whoremongers) (G4205) όρνος, pornos; Thayer Definition: 1) a man who prostitutes his body to another’s lust for hire; 2) a male prostitute; 3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator; Part of Speech: noun masculine - Thayer
and murderers . . (G5406) φονεύς, phoneús; gen. phonéōs, masc. noun from phoneúō (G5407), to kill. A murderer (Mat_22:7; Act_3:14; Act_7:52; Act_28:4; 1Pe_4:15; Rev_21:8; Rev_22:15).

and idolaters . . (G1496) "an image servant, or worsipper" literally or figuratively, an idolater.

whoever loves and practices a lie . . ( maketh, doeth, practices same verb as in 1Jn_1:6) To do the truth is to obey it, to do falsehood is is to claim one thing but which is belied by his life. (see CBSC)

The point is that such wicked people will not be inhabitants of the New Jerusalem.
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1Co 6:11 And καὶ some [of] τινες you were ἦτε· such. ταῦτά But ἀλλὰ you were washed, ἀπελούσασθε, but ἀλλὰ you were sanctified, ἡγιάσθητε, but ἀλλὰ you were justified, ἐδικαιώθητε in ἐν the τῷ name ὀνόματι of the τοῦ our (ἡμῶν) Lord Κυρίου Jesus Ἰησοῦ Christ Χριστοῦ and καὶ by ἐν the τῷ Spirit Πνεύματι of τοῦ our ἡμῶν. God. Θεοῦ

such were some of you. or, some of you used to be (LNT). Gr. ēte. Used to be translates the force of the imperfect tense, representing action that went on in past time. Note that some of the Corinthians used to be fornicators, homosexuals, covetous, drunkards, etc. (1Co_6:9-11), but not any longer!

They had an experience with God in which they were made holy, made righteous. The Christian life consists in a creative act of God which is transformational, regenerative, resulting in a new creation! (Cf. 2Co_5:17-18; Gal_6:15 and notes). And not an as if salvation or imputed righteousness where one is considered to be what one is not, or holiness on the other side of the grave (cf. Joh_17:17 and notes). The urgency and burden of Paul’s point here is that if one is still what they used to be, they will not inherit the kingdom of God!

(1Co_6:9-10). If one’s experience does not bring transformation and deliverance from sin, it is false to the Scriptures and not saving (cf. Mat_18:3; Rom_5:1; Rom_6:6-7; Rom_6:14; Rom_6:22; Eph_4:24; Eph_5:3-7; Col_3:9-10; Tit_2:14; Tit_3:5-7; Jas_1:26; 1Jn_3:7-10).

Reader, mark it well, there is no salvation apart from transformation! If you are what you have always been, you are not saved. So Paul’s used to be statements (1Co_12:2; Rom_6:17; Rom_6:20; Rom_7:5; Eph_2:3; Eph_5:8) mean that the one having entered into the new life in Christ has left the sinful past behind—Done! Finished! Over! Paul said in 1Co_12:2 : "…you used to be pagans…led to these mute idols…being led astray." They used to be, but not any longer! It is not possible to be a pagan and a Christian at the same time. Paul himself was (used to be) "…a blasphemer and persecutor and violent man…" (1Ti_1:13), but it was over when he met Jesus on the Damascus road (cf. 1Ti_1:15 and note). It may be said of Jesus that He used to be in the tomb, but He is not now! (cf. 1Co_15:17 and note). And so anyone who is a Christian is able to say it used to be with reference to the sinful past. It is not possible for one to go through the processes of godly sorrow and come out on the other side of repentance unto salvation, and defend the doctrine of sinning religion (2Co_7:10 and notes) [LNT, fn r]. 1Co_5:8; 1Co_12:2, Lev_6:7; =Lev_13:2; =Lev_13:3; Lev_14:3; Lev_14:48, Deu_10:19, Psa_68:13; Psa_68:18, +*Isa_29:24, Zec_3:4, Mat_9:13; Mat_21:29, Joh_5:4; Joh_20:23, Rom_6:17-19; Rom_11:30, *Eph_2:1-3; *+*Eph_2:11-13; *Eph_2:19; Eph_4:17-22; Eph_4:28; Eph_5:8, Col_1:13; Col_1:21; *Col_3:5-7, *Tit_3:3-6, 1Pe_4:2-3, *2Pe_1:4.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, an initial salvation...or first cut. saved FROM the world. The first step in a race is at the starting line, not the finish line.


This is at the Bema seat judgment...for the house of God. There are 2 resurrections. And there is both a good outcome and bad outcome in each. 2x2=4. So you have cited a description of the first resurrection. Don't think you can make a global doctrine based on one verse. And if you watch the video....you will find that there are indeed verses that describe all 4 destinies in one go.

The Bema set judgment. This resurrection and judgment is covered in Daniel.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan. 12:2

Here it says....MANY...not ALL. The rest of the world is judged at the GWT. First comes the judgment at the house of God.


You are not getting the fact that there is a hard judgment for believers. Read the bible. Judgment begins at the house of God. The world is judged separately...a thousand years after the first resurrection and Bema judgment. Could this be the first time you hear of this? How long have you been a believer?


Believers are NOT condemned with the world. That's the first cut...coming out of Egypt into the wilderness. So you are stuck on the starting line...as most are these days.

This is referring to the GWT and the judgment of the whole world. Notice it is by works that the righteous, the meek are judged...those who have DONE good. Their names are recorded in the book of life.

Of course there is the judgement seat of Christ for believers. This is for rewards or the lack of rewards, not eternal life or death.

All believers have eternal life, not all have the same resurrection to life.

God is not a communist, God rewards those who do good works and bear more good fruit than others. Eternal life is the baseline for all believers in Christ.

Christ told us only good fruit bearers have eternal life.
If you do not bear good fruit, you will be cut down and cast into the fire.

v23 describes the saved, The saved do bear good fruit to God. The others bear no fruit or immature fruit which is worthless.
Good fruit and good works are not the same, good fruit we bear to God, good works benefit men.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

Purpose of parables is to hide the truth to those to whom God has decided should not understand the kingdom of God.

The Purpose of Parables​

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
.

 

[Scott Downey]

There is just eternal life or eternal death, and for those who have eternal life there is rewards, some more, some less, some just have eternal life and all their works burn up in the judgement seat of Christ.
But even so they did bear some good fruit to God as they believed in Christ, and that shows the work of God within them bore good fruit to God, even though their good works were lacking. For by grace are you saved.

Our salvation is not based on good works, it is based on believing in Christ, and Christ said it like this,
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

So when you believe you bore good fruit to God who worked His work in you.

And of our good works this, a reward.
Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Revelation 22:12

Jesus Testifies to the Churches​

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

The Narrow Way​

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [c]Because narrow is the gate and [d]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus saves us from what exactly?
Even in the natural world, God shows to man there is only life and death.

That is one cut....the first cut. Read the parable of the wheat and tares....carefully. There are two cuts. Those who have been granted life are judged for honour or dishonour, for blessing and cursing...for holiness in the holy city and for the saved of the nations.

You can't stop at one aspect of salvation and then deny every other.

In the spiritual kingdom of God Jesus says there is only this, the resurrection of life or the resurrection of condemnation.
However, I do think there are levels of Hell, some with worse and some less punishment. God himself talks of His wrath burning to the lowest hell. All condemned go to hell, while all justified, heaven, and there are levels of heaven. Scripture talks of the seventh heaven.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

This is the judgment of God's house. My sheep hear My voice.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

There is life in Christ, only for believers in Christ or dying in your sins, for non-believers in Christ.
The same dichotomy, natural life and death, spiritual life and death, and God has shown this to all mankind,
so, they are without excuse.

John 5

Honor the Father and the Son​

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, [d]and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

The saints are granted new bodies at the first resurrection to rule over the world with Christ for 1,000 years. These are the future Bride of Christ. The nations of the saved in eternity are written in the Book of life. And the saints will rule over them.

 

[Episkopos]

Of course there is the judgement seat of Christ for believers. This is for rewards or the lack of rewards, not eternal life or death.

This judgment is for honour, The naked are shamed and vessels of dishonour, Those who are rejected from the kingdom are cast out into the wilderness of outer darkness. There are walls around the New Jerusalem...to keep out the pretenders. No one who believes and promotes a lie will have access to the holy city.

So this is not just about having more or less. Look at the parable of the talents. Some had more or less and one was cast away entirely.

There are 2 destinies present at the Bema seat judgment for God's people. Blessing and cursing.,

All believers have eternal life, not all have the same resurrection to life.

Exactly.

God is not a communist, God rewards those who do good works and bear more good fruit than others. Eternal life is the baseline for all believers in Christ.

Christ told us only good fruit bearers have eternal life.
If you do not bear good fruit, you will be cut down and cast into the fire.

No. Fire reveals of what kind the fruit is there for God's house (the second cut) and those who fail will be saved but as by fire. These will go into the wilderness of outer darkness, to wander there forever...as per Jude and Peter...and Jesus.

v23 describes the saved, The saved do bear good fruit to God. The others bear no fruit or immature fruit which is worthless.
Good fruit and good works are not the same, good fruit we bear to God, good works benefit men.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Hebrews 11:35
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

Purpose of parables is to hide the truth to those to whom God has decided should not understand the kingdom of God.

The Purpose of Parables​

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
.

This parable lays out the four destinies of men. In order....the wicked, by the wayside, the filthy (unclean) on stony shallow soil, the righteous, among thorns, and the holy, on good ground. All this from a holiness and eternal perspective. Now read rev. 22:11 and have your understanding opened up.