Temples

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,

My apologies for skipping over your response to me in post #114. Really, I am not going to argue with your interpretation, even though I think you misunderstand the victory of Yeshua on the cross, and whereas we had no power to not sin, now, if we resist the devil, he will flee from us. Why would he be frightened of us if his power is undiminished? I think there are a lot of verses you skip over, which tell us that Satan's power has been broken. Still, I realise that for many 'Christians' (not necessarily you, of course), the idea that sin is not longer acceptable in the believer's heart and life, is - to say the least - unpopular as a doctrine - despite that Jesus, Peter, Paul and John all taught it.

So, returning to your point about us only having a down payment of the Holy Spirit, would you say, therefore, that no-one is actually born again until they have been raised from their graves?



Was that a different spirit of slumber than the one Isaiah was told to prophesy over Israel in chapter 6 of his prophecy?

If so, when was that spirit of slumber lifted, and why did Jesus keep quoting if from Isaiah to say how apposite it was, if it had been lifted?

Yeshua`s victory on the cross - that Roman execution stake - was thorough but it was not complete. All the seeds for all of His conquests were accomplished at that time, but they have NOT all come to fruition, yet. Only someone wearing those proverbial "rose-colored glasses" would think to say that this world shows ANY sign that all of His conquests have come to fruition! And, as Yogi Berra was known to say, "It ain't over 'til it's over!" All of His victories were assured at the cross (and His Resurrection), but all of His victories, as yet, have NOT been realized!

One can be "born again" now. That does NOT mean, however, that he is ready to "receive his inheritance" now. Even a son that is born to a king and is heir to the throne may not actually ascend the throne for many years! Just look at Prince George, the future King of England. He's OBVIOUSLY not ready to reign as king, right? So, yes, one can be "born of the Spirit" - the "HOLY Spirit," the "Ruach haQodesh" - right now, but that doesn't mean that he is ready to "rule and reign with Christ" right now. There are things that must happen first:

Romans 8:16-23
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

So, we who have been "born again" are ASSURED of a place with the Messiah when He comes and reigns; we are ASSURED of eternal life - life that goes on and on forever into eternity, but we have not yet received the FULL REALIZATION of what that means! And, we don't get it when we die, as many teach (i.e., "going to heaven when we die"); we get it when the Messiah returns and resurrects OUR bodies, transforming them into incorruptible, immortal, imperishable bodies! Bodies that are glorious - that is, bodies that will glow, as His does! Bodies that can GIVE LIFE, not just live, like His does! Blasting bodies, "spiritual" bodies (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = a "spiritual body"), bodies that can blow or "breathe" into the nostrils of the dead and make them living souls, not just "natural" breathing bodies (Greek: sooma psuchikon = a "soul-ish body"), barely able to sustain our own lives! (1 Corinthians 15:35-57.)

Now, as far as the "spirit of slumber" on Isra'el is concerned, yes, it is a different condition than that of Isaiah 6. It's Isaiah 29:


Isaiah 29:1-14
1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6 Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
KJV


This is what Rav Sha'uwl (Teacher Saul, the Apostle Paul) quoted in Romans 11:8:


Romans 11:1-12
11 1 “In that case, I say, isn’t it that God has repudiated his people?” Heaven forbid! For I myself am a son of Isra’el, from the seed of Avraham,(d 2 Chronicles 20:7; Psalm 105:6) of the tribe of Binyamin. 2 God has not repudiated his people,(e 1 Samuel 12:22; Psalm 94:14) whom he chose in advance. Or don’t you know what the Tanakh says about Eliyahu? He pleads with God against Isra’el, 3 “Adonai, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars, and I’m the only one left, and now they want to kill me too!" (f 1 Kings 19:10, 14) 4 But what is God’s answer to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt down to Ba‘al." (g 1 Kings 19:18) 5 It’s the same way in the present age: there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 (Now if it is by grace, it is accordingly not based on legalistic works; if it were otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.) 7 What follows is that Isra’el has not attained the goal for which she is striving. The ones chosen have obtained it, but the rest have been made stonelike, 8 just as the Tanakh says,
“God has given them a spirit of dullness —
eyes that do not see
and ears that do not hear,
right down to the present day. (h Deuteronomy 24:3; Isaiah 29:10)
9 And David says,
“Let their dining table become for them
a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a punishment.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they can’t see,
with their backs bent continually." (i Psalm 69:23-24)
11 “In that case, I say, isn’t it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?” Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. (j Deuteronomy 32:21) 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world — that is, if Isra’el’s being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter — how much greater riches will Isra’el in its fullness bring them!
CJB

So, this condition has NOT been entirely lifted, yet; HOWEVER, it IS BEGINNING to lift! Jews and Hebrews around the world are beginning to recognize that Yeshua` was and IS their Messiah and the veil is beginning to be lifted off of their eyes! THOUSANDS are coming back to the Lord through the ministries of Messianic Judaism and Jews for Jesus!

 

[SelectThis!]

If therefore the Master speaks of the Naos-Temple of his Body, and the saints be in and of the one Body of Messiah, then I choose that interpretation of the Naos-Temple whenever I read of it hereafter in the Word, that is to say, that the Naos-Temple concerns the body temple supernal and the true Temple of God rather than a physical Hieron-Temple building made with the hands of men. And this certainly includes the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua

If you think of Genesis 1:27, what did it imply?

Genesis 1:27

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=.75em]What [/SIZE]What does it mean that we are created 'in' His own image? Again, He says it a different way. We ARE the image of God. It is stated two ways. Who are we in the image and who is God outside the image? Believe it our now, this can be answered. By answer these questions, the other aspects open to you.

Father is Aleph Bet (Alphabet). Son is Bet (House) Nun (Seed). The Son is the House of Seed (Word). The letters (DNA) creates the template (Temple) of God. Who is the Template?

I will need to give commentary between verses.

Colossians 1

[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

---The Son of God here is THE image. From the first image (House of Seed), the Son of God creates Adam.
-----
LUKE 3

[SIZE=.75em]37 [/SIZE]the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, [SIZE=.75em]38 [/SIZE]the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

Who is before Adam in this genealogy? The Son of God.
-------
[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]He is before all things,and in him all things hold together.

---The Words of DNA are the proteins of the letters (Aleph Bet). Father is the origin of the Word. Below, we see that the church (body of Christ) is the body and Christ is the Head. He is the firstborn from the dead (First Century). It is the process of Baptism that brings reconciliation. Baptism is not what you might think. Read this post: Baptism

[SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

---The blood represents the DNA. The life is in the blood. Again, the Son of God is the House of Seed. Father is the letters. Mother is the water (Aleph MEM(Water)). She is the catalyst for the letters and word (Proteins). The templates are the archetypes of the body of Christ. That would be you and me and all of humanity from Adam to the Last Adam (Christ). He is the first of the new body.

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[SIZE=.65em][g][/SIZE] your evil behavior. [SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— [SIZE=.75em]23 [/SIZE]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

In Genesis 1, Elohim creates the first week creation that is perfect. In Genesis 2, the Lord (Son of God) creates his own creation. There is an error. The reconciliation is the fix for the root of the trouble.

I can give you more if you like.

 

[ajdiamond]

There is an old, old proverb that says, The kingdom of heaven is within you; and whosoever shall know himself shall find it.

Yes, yes! This is another approach to take. Are the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God talking about the same thing? Are they just two different phrases for the same thing? If the kingdom of God is within me, is the kingdom of heaven within me too? Wait, what!?!?! h34r:

Matt 3:2--And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15--And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye

Matt 13:33--Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Luke 13:20-21--And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matt 13:31-32--Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mark 4:30-32--And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Matt 11:11--Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28--For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Matt 18:3--And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 18:17--Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

...and there's many more.

The Kingdom of heaven is "the Kingdom from the sky," and the Kingdom of God is "God's Kingdom."

Retrobyter:

The "kingdom of heaven" is a phrase used exclusively in the book of Matthew. Luke and Mark, while reporting on the same, exact events and teachings found in Matthew, use the phrase "kingdom of God" in their gospel. They are two different phrases for the same thing. I showed you a few proofs above and I'll show you a few more:

Matt 19:13-14 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:13-14 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Immediately after the above verses, the next event (what must I do to inherit eternal life) ends with these:
Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

"The commissioning of the twelve"
Matt 10:5-8 These twelve Jesus sent forth...And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick...
Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Between the parable of the sower and the interpretation of the parable:
Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mark 4:10-11 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

So, there it is. If one were to lay down their dark-tinted theological glasses, they should be able to see the simplicity of the above. The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. So, when it says the kingdom of God is within you, it is also saying the kingdom of heaven is within you.

It's safer to glance at the above and ignore it. Because you know that if you pull this particular string, the fabric of your strictly-mental theological theory will collapse, not only in regards to "end-times" but in regards to quite a bit else. And that if you pull this one string, many more frayed strings will appear. And if you pull those, then what do you have? Other than ground ready to know the Truth? Probably a few more things, but we'll leave it at that.

You can't put this new patch on your old doctrine. Lay the doctrine down. Quiet the mind that's bonding you to the exoteric theory. Be still. You keep listening and believing and energizing the wheel of carnal, egoic, reactive thought and you've been passively following it's momentum since you were 7 years old. You even identify with it, that carnal man of sin, even though you should have heard by now that you are a child of God and therein is your true identity.

You have the mind of Christ within you. You have the kingdom of God within you. God's thoughts are not your thoughts. Why then do you, internally, minute by minute, choose to focus your attention on the mundane-profane stream of recycled thought in your mind--even having imaginary internal conversations with it--and not focus the attention of your awareness on the divine within? You can have the kingdom of God or you can remain enmeshed in what you've had every day for years: reactive thought and emotion, false ego, false self, false identity, struggle and suffering. Choose.

For those who long for the Real: Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God within you.

 

[ENOCH2010]

How does daq and his gang interpret the holy city New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to land on Earth?

 

[SelectThis!]

How does daq and his gang interpret the holy city New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to land on Earth?

As a bride adorned. 144,000 sealed. That is 12,000 from 12 tribes. If you go back to Ezekiel 28, how was the Guardian Cherub that fell adorned? What will the wedding bride that rises look like when the consummation of the church is complete? There are always twins in scripture. One is evil and the other is good. One falls and the other rises. Involution and Evolution. It's all symbolism for the Ark that moves across the wilderness to the new Heavens and Earth (Promised Land). First, we exit Egypt after the flood. The Flood is Baptism, or beasts riding in the water.

To understand this, we need to look at a concept from science called Chirality. Two things are mirrored, yet they cannot be superimposed on each other. The two become one flesh. We share the blood of Christ as the bread and seed making the bread. One has a purpose and the other has a purpose. There is an image in opposite from the reflection. Judge which is righteous and make the choice. New Jerusalem is the city that is founded on the Chief Cornerstone. Mystery Babylon is founded on rejecting this cornerstone for commerce and trade (Beast System). In Genesis 3, we see the fall of the adorned Guardian Cherub. In Revelation, we see the risen savior adorned as as a bride robe (suffering of the saints).

Ezekiel 28

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
[SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE]
Your settings and mountings[SIZE=.65em][c] were made of gold;[/SIZE]
on the day you were created they were prepared.

[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

[SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

[SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

The bricks have fallen and Babylon is no more. The city on seven hills falls. New Jerusalem rises. You are looking for a building that is cube. Why? Invariable symmetry in physics. God is the same no matter how you turn Him. In physics, this is the invariable symmetry law that governs the strong nuclear force. The weak force is heeled and does not follow the law. It is governed. The new city is built on the perfect law. Giving and receiving is this law and the will of God.

The thief has his reward already.

 

[daq]

How does daq and his gang interpret the holy city New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to land on Earth?

I do not have a "gang" and why can you not stop slandering me? :)

Yeshua`s victory on the cross - that Roman execution stake - was thorough but it was not complete.

Retrobyter your statement quoted above is blasphemy.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, ajdiamond.

Retrobyter:

The "kingdom of heaven" is a phrase used exclusively in the book of Matthew. Luke and Mark, while reporting on the same, exact events and teachings found in Matthew, use the phrase "kingdom of God" in their gospel. They are two different phrases for the same thing. I showed you a few proofs above and I'll show you a few more:

Matt 19:13-14 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:13-14 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Immediately after the above verses, the next event (what must I do to inherit eternal life) ends with these:
Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

"The commissioning of the twelve"
Matt 10:5-8 These twelve Jesus sent forth...And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick...
Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Between the parable of the sower and the interpretation of the parable:
Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mark 4:10-11 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

So, there it is. If one were to lay down their dark-tinted theological glasses, they should be able to see the simplicity of the above. The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. So, when it says the kingdom of God is within you, it is also saying the kingdom of heaven is within you.

It's safer to glance at the above and ignore it. Because you know that if you pull this particular string, the fabric of your strictly-mental theological theory will collapse, not only in regards to "end-times" but in regards to quite a bit else. And that if you pull this one string, many more frayed strings will appear. And if you pull those, then what do you have? Other than ground ready to know the Truth? Probably a few more things, but we'll leave it at that.

You can't put this new patch on your old doctrine. Lay the doctrine down. Quiet the mind that's bonding you to the exoteric theory. Be still. You keep listening and believing and energizing the wheel of carnal, egoic, reactive thought and you've been passively following it's momentum since you were 7 years old. You even identify with it, that carnal man of sin, even though you should have heard by now that you are a child of God and therein is your true identity.

You have the mind of Christ within you. You have the kingdom of God within you. God's thoughts are not your thoughts. Why then do you, internally, minute by minute, choose to focus your attention on the mundane-profane stream of recycled thought in your mind--even having imaginary internal conversations with it--and not focus the attention of your awareness on the divine within? You can have the kingdom of God or you can remain enmeshed in what you've had every day for years: reactive thought and emotion, false ego, false self, false identity, struggle and suffering. Choose.

For those who long for the Real: Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God within you.

Before I start, did I ever say that the "kingdom of heaven" was different than the "kingdom of God?" No, I agree; they are the same Kingdom; they are just different phrases to identify that Kingdom. The problem is thinking that this means that the "kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God" is somehow different from the Kingdom of Isra'el over which Daveed haMelekh (King David) and Smoh haMelekh (King Solomon) ruled!

Firstly, that being said, it will never cease to amaze me how an unfortunate translation, the dynamic growth of a living language while the translation remains static, and the misunderstanding that goes along with them will so derail the thinking of some people! (Of course, if those people are DETERMINED to find a particular theological point somewhere in the Scriptures, they WILL find it SOMEWHERE, even if they have to FORCE the Scriptures to say it by coming up with their own translation, as the cultists do.)

So, when YOU said, "when it says the kingdom of God is within you, it is also saying the kingdom of heaven is within you," I find it ironic that it doesn't say "the Kingdom of God is within you" like you THINK that it says "the Kingdom of God is within you!" (By the way, you've started with the premise you're trying to prove. That's called "circular reasoning," and that's a logical fallacy.) First of all, the word "you" in the KJV is PLURAL in form. The singular of the second person is "thee" in the KJV.

That's why I said that the dynamic growth (or decay) of a living language (English) would contribute to the misunderstanding. Today, we don't speak the "king's English" any longer. Back in the 1600's, "thee" and "thou" were singular while "ye and "you" were plural. The words "thou" and "ye" were subjective case and the "thee" and "you" were objective case. Therefore, back then, one would understand that...

"thou knowest that I love thee," (objective case) and
"thou shalt have no other gods before me," (subjective case)

were each understood to be talking to ONE person. On the other hand, saying...

"God did send me before you," (objective case) and
"ye shall not eat of it," (subjective case)

were each understood to be talking to TWO OR MORE people!

Today, we don't have that distinction in English anymore. Today we say,...

"you know that I love you," and
"you shall have no other gods before me", and

"God did send me before you," and
"you shall not eat of it,"

and we must get the NUMBER information (as well as the CASE information) from the CONTEXT of the phrase (if it's there at all)! ALL of the modern English versions LOSE this information. (The same thing is true about the possessive pronouns "thy" and "your" that are used as descriptive adjectives and "thine" and "yours" that can stand alone.) That's why I still prefer the KJV over other versions. It KEEPS this information, even though one has to learn how to read and understand it. It's NOT a good thing to take the "thee's" and "thou's" out of the Scriptures, even if it makes the version more "readable" to the average person.

Unfortunately, this lack of number information "sneaks" up on us without our knowledge. Such is the case in Luke 17:21:

Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within YOU (Greek: HUMOON).
KJV

This is the PLURAL, OBJECTIVE CASE, NOT THE SINGULAR, OBJECTIVE CASE! One might THINK (or ASSUME) that Yeshua` is talking to one particular person or to each one of a group of people, but that is NOT what He is doing! He is talking to the GROUP; He's talking to them COLLECTIVELY! And, to whom is He talking? Let's back up, look at the context, and see to whom He's talking:

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV

He was talking to the P'rushiym, the Pharisees! Is He going to be saying to these UNBELIEVERS that they have the "Kingdom of God" or the "Kingdom of heaven" WITHIN THEM?! I don't think so!

Secondly, the Greek word "entos" is usually and correctly translated as "within." However, in certain contexts and in order to keep the translation clear, the word can also be translated as "among." We don't see this in the Greek New Testament; we can only find this information in Classical Greek. Usually, the word "among" is translated from the Greek word "en" in the Bible.

NT:1787 entos (en-tos'); from NT:1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV - within.

NT:1722 en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
KJV - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+all means), for (... sake of), + giveself wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [openly-], X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedily-], X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Note, however, that "entos" is from "en" and means "inside" while "en" primarily means "in," just as "ektos," meaning "outside," is from "ek," meaning "out." So, just as "in" can be used to mean "among," so can "inside" under certain circumstances. Luke 17:21 is one of those circumstances. Yeshua`, talking to the GROUP of P'rushiym, was not saying that the Kingdom of God was "inside" of them individually; He was saying that the Kingdom of God was "inside" of them COLLECTIVELY as a GROUP! It was AMONG them! How was it "among them?" It was "among them" because HE was "among them!" Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the King Apparent (or technically, the King ELECT), was the EMBODIMENT of the Kingdom of God! And, ONLY because He was standing there in the middle of them, answering their demands, was the Kingdom of God "inside" their group!

Also, consider this: Is it wise to base all your beliefs on a word that only occurs in two places and is therefore controversial? "Entos" is only to be found here in Luke 17:21 and in Matthew 23:26 where it is contrasted with "ektos":

Matthew 23:26
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within (entos) the cup and platter, that the outside (ektos) of them may be clean also.
KJV

So, yes, it does mean "within" or "inside" but Yeshua` was talking about HIMSELF being literally INSIDE the GROUP of P'rushiym during His interrogation.

The weave of the cloth of my system of theology is intact. I don't have any "dangling threads" to pull; they're all as tight as those in the sturdiest tarp! I am secure because the weave is not my own. I've been reading God's Word carefully and building a firm foundation since 1977 when I threw everything out and started from scratch, going back to the basics, constantly asking the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) to help me and guide me and give me insight and wisdom when I'd encounter a dilemma (usually from past theological garbage that tends to hang on), and inch-by-inch, mile-by-mile, step-by-steady-step He's rebuilt for me a theology that can't be shaken. Y'all have pushed the envelope on the allegorical side (and have gone to "a galaxy far, far away"); I've pushed the envelope on the LITERAL side and have gone to a far more complete and CONCRETE side. I can tell you that it is not only possible; it's FAR MORE assuring and comforting! He is INDEED the Comforter! I don't need or WANT your "new patch" (cut from the "emperor's new clothes") on my garment! It would be a SERIOUS flaw!

Wikipedia says,

"Exoteric refers to knowledge that is outside of and independent from anyone's experience and can be ascertained by anyone; cf. common sense. It is distinguished from internal esoteric knowledge. Exoteric relates to "external reality" as opposed to one's own thoughts or feelings. It is knowledge that is public as opposed to secret or cabalistic. It is not required that exoteric knowledge come easily or automatically, but it should be referenceable or reproducible."

Esoteric means "intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest: esoteric philosophical debates."

So, between the two, I believe it is preferable to have exoteric knowledge, like "COMMON SENSE," than the esoteric knowledge reserved for the snobby "elite" or "special interest groups," like the cabal! God is not stingy with His knowledge, but one DOES have to ASK first, and then LISTEN and PAY ATTENTION to His answers! Like the pyramids, it's not some freaky, hidden, strange knowledge of the occult or the Masons or the Knights Templar; it's the beautiful mathematics and physics and sound architecture of the antediluvian ancients who built a structure that would survive Noach's FLOOD, preserving their knowledge for generations to come (as well as the building itself for millennia)!

It shows me things that might otherwise go missed, like "hardly" in Matthew 19:23 and Mark 10:23 both mean "WITH DIFFICULTY" but not "impossibly" or "rarely" or "scarcely" as the word is used today; or like "without" in Mark 4:11 means "OUTSIDE" and literally is talking about the people outside the house where Yeshua` was talking to His students. It shows me that the word "preach" in Matthew 10:7 and Luke 9:2 both mean to "HERALD as a town cryer." And, it shows me that "suffer" in Matthew 19:14 and Mark 10:14 simply means to "ALLOW" without any of the negative connotations that the word might have today. It also shows me that the Greek "eulogeoo," like "baruwkh" in Hebrew, means to "SPEAK WELL" of someone, making them "HAPPY" in the process. The word for what Yeshua` did for the children was "kateulogeoo," adding "kata" meaning "down" to the word. He was encouraging them ON THEIR LEVEL! The more amazing word used in Mark 10:16 is "enagkalisamenos": translated as "he took ... up in his arms," it means to "EMBRACE" or to "HUG!"

Mark 10:16
16 And HE TOOK them UP IN HIS ARMS, put his hands upon them, and BLESSED them.
KJV

He HUGGED them, put His hands on them, and ENCOURAGED THEM ON THEIR LEVEL! And, the thing that is truly obvious and most amazing is the thing that went unsaid; He SPENT TIME WITH THEM! And, as Dr. James Dobson has said, "Children spell 'love' T-I-M-E."

"Having imaginary internal conversations, not focus the attention of your awareness on the divine (the Ruach haQodesh) within, reactive thought and emotion, false ego, false self, false identity, struggle and suffering"? As Bugs Bunny whispered to the camera behind his hand, "He don't know me vewy well, do he?!"

And, one last thing: QUIT ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES STUFF THAT ISN'T THERE! It's simply:

Matthew 6:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
KJV

 

[daq]

He was talking to the P'rushiym, the Pharisees! Is He going to be saying to these UNBELIEVERS that they have the "Kingdom of God" or the "Kingdom of heaven" WITHIN THEM?! I don't think so!

Secondly, the Greek word "entos" is usually and correctly translated as "within." However, in certain contexts and in order to keep the translation clear, the word can also be translated as "among." We don't see this in the Greek New Testament; we can only find this information in Classical Greek. Usually, the word "among" is translated from the Greek word "en" in the Bible.

NT:1787 entos (en-tos'); from NT:1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV - within.

NT:1722 en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
KJV - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+all means), for (... sake of), + giveself wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [openly-], X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedily-], X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)



And, one last thing: QUIT ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES STUFF THAT ISN'T THERE! It's simply:

How many times have we already had the same discussion about entos and mesos? You have been proven incorrect and have now become simply a liar because it was four or five times ago you were disproven but continue repeating the same lies like a politician in hopes that the lie will carry the water down the road for your cause. Please stop changing the definitions of words just so you can prove your case and falsely accuse others of adding to the Scripture. And please, again, go find another thread or start your own since we have already discussed this very same topic, (entos and mesos) four or five times already. Perhaps this is the problem when newborns are told they are saved from day one just because they prayed the sinners' prayer during an emotion filled alter call complete with tear-jerking worship music while bowing at a preacher man's feet and podium; "Yea! righteousness for Retrobyter forever" because you did your one little work, which you do not count as a work, and chose the day wherein you were going to pray the super prayer and save yourself! What a sad joke and a mockery of the Gospel of Yeshua. In addition if you cannot rule yourself and your tongue you will not be ruling over anything and certainly never over any other brethren in the Kingdom of God. Your love of the flesh has deceived you.

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV

He was talking to the P'rushiym, the Pharisees! Is He going to be saying to these UNBELIEVERS that they have the "Kingdom of God" or the "Kingdom of heaven" WITHIN THEM?! I don't think so!

Secondly, the Greek word "entos" is usually and correctly translated as "within." However, in certain contexts and in order to keep the translation clear, the word can also be translated as "among." We don't see this in the Greek New Testament; we can only find this information in Classical Greek. Usually, the word "among" is translated from the Greek word "en" in the Bible.

NT:1787 entos (en-tos'); from NT:1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV - within.

NT:1722 en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
KJV - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+all means), for (... sake of), + giveself wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [openly-], X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedily-], X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Note, however, that "entos" is from "en" and means "inside" while "en" primarily means "in," just as "ektos," meaning "outside," is from "ek," meaning "out." So, just as "in" can be used to mean "among," so can "inside" under certain circumstances. Luke 17:21 is one of those circumstances. Yeshua`, talking to the GROUP of P'rushiym, was not saying that the Kingdom of God was "inside" of them individually; He was saying that the Kingdom of God was "inside" of them COLLECTIVELY as a GROUP! It was AMONG them! How was it "among them?" It was "among them" because HE was "among them!" Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the King Apparent (or technically, the King ELECT), was the EMBODIMENT of the Kingdom of God! And, ONLY because He was standing there in the middle of them, answering their demands, was the Kingdom of God "inside" their group!

All of this quoted above is yet another flat out lie which has been discussed yet again for the fourth or fifth time right here in this thread in Post#89 from Page3. Yeshua uses mesos-midst in Matthew 18:20 for exactly the same thing, in exactly the same context concerning himself being in the mesos-midst of his disciples, as for what you are now attempting to say that entos should mean in Luke 17:21. This is heretical Scripture twisting and you are deceiving people with your own mind of the flesh with which you have allowed yourself to be deceived while leading others astray with your heresies.



Posted by daq, 07 November 2013 - 6:06 PM
There will not be any convincing him ajdiamond. We have already had this conversation no less than four times now wherein he has been proven to be incorrect every time. Perhaps that is the reason he cannot ignore me even though he has now promised to do so twice; as well as the time he said he was turning me over to his god and if need be his god would turn me over to "HaSatan" in one thread. You see Retrobyter has proclaimed that he is trying to finish writing his book so there is clearly an alterior motive for such a one to disprove everyone else who disagrees with his literal-physical kingdom of flesh theology.

daq, on 08 August 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:
This is completely false and you already know it so why do you keep repeating the same falsehoods? The Kingdom of God does not come with ocular-visual-observational evidence. The Kingdom of God does not come by observation. This kind of "observation" is "visual-ocular evidence" meaning "to be seen with the eyes of the flesh" and is purely physical in nature. This he states because the Kingdom of God is within us:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [GSN#3907 parateresis]
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Original Strong's Ref. #3907
Romanized parateresis
Pronounced par-at-ay'-ray-sis
from GSN3906; inspection, i.e. ocular evidence:
KJV--obervation.

Yes Yeshua speaks in plural, and yes he speaks to the Pharisees, and yes the Kingdom of God is potentially inside of all men. In addition, (Retrobyter) of course Yeshua speaks to them in plural yet he speaks to each in his own appointed times even though he speaks to them all at the same time. The word employed here ("entos") translated "within" comes from GSN#1722 "en" which most definitely means "IN".

Luke 17:21 TUA
21. oude erousin, "Idou hode!" e"{*} Ekei!" Idou gar he basileia tou Theou entos humonestin."^

Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.

BDB -- Strong's Greek Definition for #1787
1787 // entov // entos // en-tos' //
from 1722 ; prep
AV - within 2; 2
1) within, inside
1a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
1b) within you i.e. your soul
http://www.apostolic...s/luke_17.shtml
http://www.apostolic...greek&stnm=1787


The modern definition from BDB makes your case more flimsy because the soul is used to describe "entos" being "within" the man.
In addition when you change the meaning of "entos" you alter the implications of "mesos" ("midst") from other passages:

Also it does not matter to whom the Master speaks directly in the passage, (i.e. the Pharisees) because the Gospel accounts are written by apostles and disciples to the entire congregation-ekklesia and that includes the account from Luke irrespective of to whom it is addressed, ("Theophilus"). In addition you are attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not say so as to enforce your own paradigm of a physical fleshly kingdom of God upon the physical world-wide planet earth, ruling a physical empire of fleshly kingdoms, over what I can only imagine you must think of as the "lesser-brethren millennial sheeples", (was that not already attempted in the middle of the last century?). The Luke passage clearly disputes what you profess because Yeshua tells them that the kingdom of God does not come with observation and neither shall they say, "See here! or, see there!", "Look here! or, look there!" As stated time and again already in this thread: "For the kingdom of God is inside you", (GSN#1787 entos). If you desire to prove your point that the kingdom of God is all around us and in our midst then you have an alternative passage which you have either not recognized, neglected, or ignored in making your case. However, it does not read "entos" (inside) but rather "mesos" (midst).

AGAIN:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.

Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.

Matthew 18:19-20 KJV
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.

Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.

Your argument requires changing the definitions of words to suit your paradigm. No thanks . . .

Luke 17:21 KJV
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.

Matthew 18:20 KJV
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.

You have stolen the meaning of "mesos" and applied it to "entos" so as to have your pound of flesh kingdom.

Christ will come again - Page 4
Desolating Abomination - Post#4-13
Desolating Abomination - Post#51
So….The New Earth and Heaven - Post#6-25


ENOCH2010 and Veteran perhaps if the two of you would stop heeding the false teachings of teachers such as Retrobyter and his genos-kind you might begin to better understand 2Thessalonians2. The son of perdition, antichrist spirit, does not come from inside of you, ("entos") but rather comes from round about your midst, ("mesos"). This concerns yet another false accusation which you and your own "gang" of thread-busters wrecking crew have attempted to level at me even right here in this thread because you do not believe the words of Yeshua which I have quoted many times concerning this subject. It is you who do not believe the plain statements of the Master so that you may continue hoping for your future kingdom of flesh reigning over a global empire and who knows who you will be reigning over but what I can only presume you suppose to be the "lesser-brethren sheeples" who are lucky enough to survive the next man-made holocaust. The same words entos and mesos are employed in the same ways throughout the Greek. Retrobyter has changed the meanings of them to suit his and yours flesh fantasy idea of a Judas Sicarii style physical kingdom. The son of perdition comes from the flesh, the mind of the flesh, and the doctrines of the mind flesh; for a man is not his flesh body earthen vessel but rather the man is a living nephesh-soul placed inside, (entos) his earthen vessel. 2Thessalonians 2:7 employs mesos the very same way because it states "out from the mesos-midst it comes". Paul makes his own understanding clear where he states in Romans 7:18-23 that there is evil which dwells in your flesh and it is not you. This teaching of Paul likewise alines precisely with the teachings of the Master who clearly states that the flesh profits nothing:

Romans 7:18-23 KJV
18. For I know that in me ( that is, in my flesh, ) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[SelectThis!]

Paradox can only be resolved with a higher axiom. This is what you miss if you care to read.

If you are going to read any of the posts in this thread, you should read this one and follow up with the scriptures I leave you. You guys seem to be arguing over a great number of details, but have you considered the resolution. Read my post here, the read this post. It is what you fail to see. Baptism is the involution of our temple (body) so we can rise a new creation (With Christ as the New Jerusalem).

If you miss this point I just made, you miss the entire story.

The New Jerusalem Temple is the risen bride. The fallen temple is the one mentioned in Ezekiel 28 as the Guardian Cherub that fell. The root of the trouble lies in him (Job 19). In all of scripture, there are twins. One has fallen and the other risen. To rise, we must be consummated (Married) to the Spirit (John 3). The material version is the one that experiences involution so that it can rise again to new life (Evolve). This is the process of baptism.

The simple answer here is this: The Son of God is being raised by God. By this, we are all being raised. Why? We are all slices of the same loaf of bread.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

What was the first cup? It was the cup Jesus took in our place. Now, it is the cup of thanksgiving for the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer? The same one that fell. It is ADAM. When Adam is married to the bride (Church), the new Temple rises again. 3 days to raise the temple (3000 years). Two days have passed with the last 1000 years to raise the temple. Adam is the Redeemer and I can prove it to you.

1 Corinthians

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

The Last Adam is the firstfruits of those who will rise again (Be baptized back in the waters of life). The temple must be cleansed after the sacrifice and the flood is Elijah (John) and the Ark is Christ.

Job 19 gives us the single key in scripture to know this.
25

I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!


28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”

Job made confession and further identified the correct person as the Redeemer. It was Adam. If we must be born again, so must the Son of God. Why? We, who are many, are one loaf of bread. When Jesus cast out the demon Legon (for we are many), he was casting out the fallen humanity into the beast and into the sea (waters of life). For 2000 years, Elihah has been baptizing us. Your two references to this are in 1 Kings 17. There, Zarephath is means refinery. Deuteronomy 19:19-20 tells you that Egypt (Earth) is the refinery. In 1 Kings 17, Elijah demonstrates the key to baptism by taking the Son of the Widow woman up to his chamber of rest, then restoring the soul. This is involution and evolution (Baptism).

You can also read it here. We all do this to rest while God cleanses the temple and burns up the chaff. We must rise with New Jerusalem first.

Isaiah 26
19

But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.


20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

 

[daq]

Paradox can only be resolved with a higher axiom. This is what you miss if you care to read.

If you are going to read any of the posts in this thread, you should read this one and follow up with the scriptures I leave you. You guys seem to be arguing over a great number of details, but have you considered the resolution. Read my post here, the read this post. It is what you fail to see. Baptism is the involution of our temple (body) so we can rise a new creation (With Christ as the New Jerusalem).

If you miss this point I just made, you miss the entire story.

The New Jerusalem Temple is the risen bride. The fallen temple is the one mentioned in Ezekiel 28 as the Guardian Cherub that fell. The root of the trouble lies in him (Job 19). In all of scripture, there are twins. One has fallen and the other risen. To rise, we must be consummated (Married) to the Spirit (John 3). The material version is the one that experiences involution so that it can rise again to new life (Evolve). This is the process of baptism.

The simple answer here is this: The Son of God is being raised by God. By this, we are all being raised. Why? We are all slices of the same loaf of bread.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

What was the first cup? It was the cup Jesus took in our place. Now, it is the cup of thanksgiving for the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer? The same one that fell. It is ADAM. When Adam is married to the bride (Church), the new Temple rises again. 3 days to raise the temple (3000 years). Two days have passed with the last 1000 years to raise the temple. Adam is the Redeemer and I can prove it to you.

1 Corinthians

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

The Last Adam is the firstfruits of those who will rise again (Be baptized back in the waters of life). The temple must be cleansed after the sacrifice and the flood is Elijah (John) and the Ark is Christ.

Job 19 gives us the single key in scripture to know this.
25

I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!


28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”

Job made confession and further identified the correct person as the Redeemer. It was Adam. If we must be born again, so must the Son of God. Why? We, who are many, are one loaf of bread. When Jesus cast out the demon Legon (for we are many), he was casting out the fallen humanity into the beast and into the sea (waters of life). For 2000 years, Elihah has been baptizing us. Your two references to this are in 1 Kings 17. There, Zarephath is means refinery. Deuteronomy 19:19-20 tells you that Egypt (Earth) is the refinery. In 1 Kings 17, Elijah demonstrates the key to baptism by taking the Son of the Widow woman up to his chamber of rest, then restoring the soul. This is involution and evolution (Baptism).

You can also read it here. We all do this to rest while God cleanses the temple and burns up the chaff. We must rise with New Jerusalem first.

Isaiah 26
19

But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.


20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Hello SelectThis! and welcome to the forum. Can I call you ST? While I do understand and agree with some of your ways of thinking, (from what I have read so far in the forums) and do agree with some things you have written; I must, however, disagree with many of the meanings you have chosen apply to what you read in the Scripture. One of the true arguments against "allegorical thinking" is that anyone can make anything into whatsoever they wish, (although the alternative "all things physical" interpretation of everything is certain death). But because allegory is so highly relative one cannot possibly expect to understand the writings without honoring the full Testimony of Yeshua in his understandings. Everything must be filtered through the lens of the doctrines, parables, allegories, and sayings of Yeshua. For instance, according to the Parable of the Sower, it is the heart which is the earth-soil wherein is planted the good seed of the Word. In deeper study using this Testimony of Yeshua one will discover that in Torah and Prophets the 'adamah-earth is the soil, (of the heart) and the 'erets is the commons-earth-land, (i.e. such as the outer-bounds-commons-profane area of the temple). Thus the 'adamah is internal, (heart) while the 'erets is outward, (flesh). Likewise from the Parable of the Sower we find that the unclean fowls of the air are clearly stated to be the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan in their three respective Gospel passages. The definitions given to us in the Parable of the Sower likewise apply to the unclean fowls of Torah. Thus we are not only commanded not to physically eat their flesh but in the doctrine of Yeshua we are told not to become like them; not to "consume" them, that is, not to partake of their nature: and each of the unclean fowls has a different key attribute to its nature, (i.e. "the keen-sighted hawk" or "the fast-flyer-darter-eagle") and all of the males are birds of prey which are raptor-like in their natures because they watch and wait circling far above the desert floors with keen eyes open awaiting the perfect moment of opportunity to swoop down out of the sky and steal the young and defenseless animals that scurry across the desert floor. They steal what is not theirs and they devour the young, the weak, and the defenseless, which is evil. Our definitions must align with what we have in the Gospel accounts from the Master, and this is why the Torah and Tanak was intentionally left incomplete; for it is only understood in Messiah, through his Testimony-Word, (for the Father speaks through the Son and showed him all things). It is precisely because Torah and the Prophets were left incomplete without the Testimony of Yeshua that we have so much division today, (for most completely ignore the Testimony of Yeshua) and this is especially true concerning prophecy. As for "Egypt", "Hagar" and "Sodom" they are always an allegory of the flesh, (i.e. Egypt is "great of flesh" as in Ezekiel 16:26 KJV). As for Job 19 there has been some discussion concerning that passage already at this board in the following link. :)
PS ~ So I suppose that would mean the covering Cherub or "Guardian Cherub" is the flesh, (which is fallen).
And yes it must be done away with one way or another . . . :)

 

[ajdiamond]

Likewise from the Parable of the Sower we find that the unclean fowls of the air are clearly stated to be the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan in their three respective Gospel passages.

It's a landmark day if a religionist ever realizes what Satan actually is.

(edit: had a bigger post written, but, meh... I'll just leave that one line here)

Carry on. B)

 

[SelectThis!]

Hello SelectThis! and welcome to the forum. Can I call you ST? While I do understand and agree with some of your ways of thinking, (from what I have read so far in the forums) and do agree with some things you have written; I must, however, disagree with many of the meanings you have chosen apply to what you read in the Scripture.

I reply to two posts in this post. It's long, but packed with some great stuff. Enjoy if you can get to the end.

First, thank you so much for a thoughtful response. ST is fine. My reasoning is on many levels. First, I always try to follow the Seven Rules of Hillel when rightly dividing scripture. This is the standard the Scribes used to lock meaning in symbols from the Torah. When Paul speaks of rightly dividing scriptures, he is referring to dScribing what is scribed. All of what he wrote adheres to these rules. His teachers would have taught him this from a young age.

Next, all of scripture is on four levels:

1) Pshat is the Direct and Simple meaning. Most people are on this outer layer of the onion when they read scripture.

2) Remez is the level of hint. For instance, 1 Kings 17 is the hint for who Elijah is in relation to John the Baptism and how the Dew and Rain would be shut off and turned back on. When it mentions the widow woman, this is another hint.

[SIZE=1.25em]17 [/SIZE]Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.

When it says she is from Zarephath, it is another level of meaning to show us that Elijah is referencing the Refinery mentioned in Deuteronomy 4. Zarephath means refinery.

Deuteronomy 4

[SIZE=.75em]19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord[/SIZE] your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. [SIZE=.75em]20 But as for you, the Lord[/SIZE] took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

3) The third level is Darash, which is commentary and comparison. This is what I am outlining right now by showing you the verses above.

4) Sod is the last level. This is the deep hidden meaning of scripture that only comes to you when you know the meaning of the letters (Aleph Bet - Father) and Words (Bet Nun - Son). The Mother is the Aleph Mem (Strong Water / Catalyst). Likewise, Israel is our catalyst for the words and letters. All that is hidden in creation can be seen by reflecting the image off of Israel by context. This is the inner layer of scripture.

One of the true arguments against "allegorical thinking" is that anyone can make anything into whatsoever they wish, (although the alternative "all things physical" interpretation of everything is certain death). But because allegory is so highly relative one cannot possibly expect to understand the writings without honoring the full Testimony of Yeshua in his understandings. Everything must be filtered through the lens of the doctrines, parables, allegories, and sayings of Yeshua. For instance, according to the Parable of the Sower, it is the heart which is the earth-soil wherein is planted the good seed of the Word.

I agree with this. As you begin to see my mind come out in these threads and posts, realize that I am right there with you in this filtering of scripture through context and particularizations across the territory and not just the personal map. Did you read this post on the topic of the harvest and Guardian of the Sons? LINK

In deeper study using this Testimony of Yeshua one will discover that in Torah and Prophets the 'adamah-earth is the soil, (of the heart) and the 'erets is the commons-earth-land, (i.e. such as the outer-bounds-commons-profane area of the temple). Thus the 'adamah is internal, (heart) while the 'erets is outward, (flesh).

Erets would be land of the living. Father is the Aleph Bet (Alphabet) and the Strong House. Son is Bet (House) Nun (Seed), which makes the letters writing the Word. Christ is the Word baptized into the land as the seed. In the material world, we are below. In the world of the Spirit, we are above.

Add a Bet (house) and you get, be 'erets, or within a land.

Add a Waw (tent peg / nail from the cross) and get Wa'erets, or 'and a land.'

Add Hey (Behold a great work) and get Ha'erets, or THE land.

Add the Lamed (Shepherd's Crook) and get 'toward a land,' as in the new land of Earth II. We are baptized, cross the wilderness (The Land) and exit egypt (refinery), but first, we must cross the Jordan and the sea must be parted. Water is the mechanism for baptism. Mother in Hebrew is Aleph (Strong) Mem (Waters). She is the catalyst for the letters (Aleph Bet) and Words (humanity as the slices of bread). The heel of the bread is Adam and the last Adam. The Son of God involved into the material with us from the beginning. He rises again (Bread) after being baked in the oven by the baker (Genesis 40). He bears the cup for us. The baker meets a different end (Ram caught in the thicket).

If you add MEM to erets, you get Me'erets, which is the water carrying us away from the land (beasts in the flood).

Likewise from the Parable of the Sower we find that the unclean fowls of the air are clearly stated to be the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan in their three respective Gospel passages. The definitions given to us in the Parable of the Sower likewise apply to the unclean fowls of Torah. Thus we are not only commanded not to physically eat their flesh but in the doctrine of Yeshua we are told not to become like them; not to "consume" them, that is, not to partake of their nature: and each of the unclean fowls has a different key attribute to its nature, (i.e. "the keen-sighted hawk" or "the fast-flyer-darter-eagle") and all of the males are birds of prey which are raptor-like in their natures because they watch and wait circling far above the desert floors with keen eyes open awaiting the perfect moment of opportunity to swoop down out of the sky and steal the young and defenseless animals that scurry across the desert floor. They steal what is not theirs and they devour the young, the weak, and the defenseless, which is evil. Our definitions must align with what we have in the Gospel accounts from the Master, and this is why the Torah and Tanak was intentionally left incomplete; for it is only understood in Messiah, through his Testimony-Word, (for the Father speaks through the Son and showed him all things). It is precisely because Torah and the Prophets were left incomplete without the Testimony of Yeshua that we have so much division today, (for most completely ignore the Testimony of Yeshua) and this is especially true concerning prophecy. As for "Egypt", "Hagar" and "Sodom" they are always an allegory of the flesh, (i.e. Egypt is "great of flesh" as in Ezekiel 16:26 KJV). As for Job 19 there has been some discussion concerning that passage already at this board in the following link. :)

Here, you are speaking of the seed of Cain. The sons of Cain are mentioned here:

1 John 4

[SIZE=.75em]11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. [/SIZE]

As for eating food sacrificed to idols, this is the Pagan Mystery School of Nimrod. Babel was the cutting of Osiris into pieces. They are the sons of Cain mentioned here:

[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] and hers;
he will crush[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Again, the heel represents each side of the loaf of bread. It also represents the change of authority. Just like we use commands to heel a dog, the same applies here. Jacob means heel, as in the heels of Esau when he was born. The birthright was traded and we now have a new Lord (Jesus Christ), the Son of God gaining the inheritance. The fallen Guardian Cherub lost that right due to commerce in the Kingdom of God (The Heavens / Principalities, Powers and Rulers in Heavenly Realms). Ephesians 3 outlines the disclosure that there are families in Heaven. Again, the change in authority is the heels of the messiah, which are also his walk in the garden with God. He is the Loaf of bread mentioned here. We walk in his shoes bearing the cup.

1 Corinthians 10

[SIZE=.75em]16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.[/SIZE]

I get ahead of myself here. I will outline many of these things in upcoming threads. I have a word study on the 'Heel' that I can share in a thread that shows you how the angel of heel on a sailing vessel is the same heel as the English Heel of the loaf and the Hebrew heel of authority. The mast (bones) must bend in the water (dry bones rise to new life).

PS ~ So I suppose that would mean the covering Cherub or "Guardian Cherub" is the flesh, (which is fallen).
And yes it must be done away with one way or another . . .

All of the above heavens are mirrored on Earth. We do not know the fulfillment of scriptures, but we have a good idea that it involves the two sides (beasts in pairs) that are needed for all of us. The Son of God must be fully human. If you read the end of the genealogy in Luke 3, you see that the Son of God created Adam. This identifies the LORD of the Old Testament as the Son of God creating the second creation of Genesis 2. The first creation is Elohim (Godhead). Above, it is in perfection (RISEN). Below, it is the material world in cycles repeating. Compare this to a moving image replayed to train souls and give sentience. God has already been to the end. He is living in Eternity now. We are riding the wave of the timeline to get there.

Where? You already have the answer, but not the larger territory of why it is so. Don't get me wrong. I do not have it either. We are all blind men describing fire here.

It's a landmark day if a religionist ever realizes what Satan actually is.

(edit: had a bigger post written, but, meh... I'll just leave that one line here)

Carry on. B)

We all have a Cain to overcome if we are to find our Abel. We must trade the birthright and give it to Christ. Baptism is the mechanism for heeling to Jacob. We lead while were are here in pride. When we trade the birthright to Christ, he leads us out. If we have this to overcome, and Jesus must be fully man, then He has his own Satan to overcome.

Read Job 19


[SIZE=.75em]25 [/SIZE]I know that my redeemer[SIZE=.65em][c][/SIZE] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE]
[SIZE=.75em]26 [/SIZE]And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] in[SIZE=.65em][f][/SIZE] my flesh I will see God;
[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!


[SIZE=.75em]28 [/SIZE]“If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[SIZE=.65em][g][/SIZE]’
[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[SIZE=.65em][h][/SIZE]”

If the 'root' of the trouble lies in Him (Redeemer), then who is the redeemer?

Luke 3

[SIZE=.75em]37 [/SIZE]the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, [SIZE=.75em]38 [/SIZE]the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

The Father first.

Adam is the Father leading to Abraham. This is the Age of the Father rising.

Issac to Jesus is the Age of the Son. The son raises to new life and becomes the first fruit.

Jesus to today is the Age of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit rises (mother / Aleph Mem) and we gain our inheritance after the 1000 years of rest. The new man is always completed (birthed) at the sixth day.

Age of the Father 2000 years
Age of the Son 2000 years
Age of the Spirit 2000 years

1000 years Day of the Lord's Rest

New day.

Genesis 1 is 7 days of the Father (Elohim)

Genesis 2 is 7 days of the Son (Lord)

Add one and you get the final day when time ends and eternity begins.

It's a grand jubilee (7X7+1) = 50

Genesis 6

[SIZE=1.25em] When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,[/SIZE][SIZE=.75em]2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]3 Then the Lord[/SIZE] said, “My Spirit will not contend with[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] humans forever, for they are mortal[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE]; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

In the book of Jubilees, a grand jubilee is one year on God's calendar. There are 120 jubilees, or 6000 years.

The root of the trouble is overcome and the ax was at the root in the first century.

What day above did the Son rise? Third.

What day will the Son rise after the first century? Today. The third day after the first century.

Hosea 6

[SIZE=.75em]2 After two days he will revive us;[/SIZE]
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
[SIZE=.75em]3 Let us acknowledge the Lord[/SIZE];
let us press on to acknowledge him.

Acknowledge who? The Redeemer. Who did this first? You say the thief on the cross? I say Job. God did not require a sacrifice for Job at the end of the book.

 

[ENOCH2010]

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

 

[daq]

First, thank you so much for a thoughtful response. ST is fine. My reasoning is on many levels. First, I always try to follow the Seven Rules of Hillel when rightly dividing scripture. This is the standard the Scribes used to lock meaning in symbols from the Torah. When Paul speaks of rightly dividing scriptures, he is referring to dScribing what is scribed. All of what he wrote adheres to these rules. His teachers would have taught him this from a young age.

Next, all of scripture is on four levels:

1) Pshat is the Direct and Simple meaning. Most people are on this outer layer of the onion when they read scripture.

2) Remez is the level of hint. For instance, 1 Kings 17 is the hint for who Elijah is in relation to John the Baptism and how the Dew and Rain would be shut off and turned back on. When it mentions the widow woman, this is another hint.

[SIZE=1.25em]17 [/SIZE]Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.

When it says she is from Zarephath, it is another level of meaning to show us that Elijah is referencing the Refinery mentioned in Deuteronomy 4. Zarephath means refinery.

Deuteronomy 4

[SIZE=.75em]19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord[/SIZE] your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. [SIZE=.75em]20 But as for you, the Lord[/SIZE] took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

3) The third level is Darash, which is commentary and comparison. This is what I am outlining right now by showing you the verses above.

4) Sod is the last level. This is the deep hidden meaning of scripture that only comes to you when you know the meaning of the letters (Aleph Bet - Father) and Words (Bet Nun - Son). The Mother is the Aleph Mem (Strong Water / Catalyst). Likewise, Israel is our catalyst for the words and letters. All that is hidden in creation can be seen by reflecting the image off of Israel by context. This is the inner layer of scripture.


I agree with this. As you begin to see my mind come out in these threads and posts, realize that I am right there with you in this filtering of scripture through context and particularizations across the territory and not just the personal map. Did you read this post on the topic of the harvest and Guardian of the Sons? LINK


Erets would be land of the living. Father is the Aleph Bet (Alphabet) and the Strong House. Son is Bet (House) Nun (Seed), which makes the letters writing the Word. Christ is the Word baptized into the land as the seed. In the material world, we are below. In the world of the Spirit, we are above.

Add a Bet (house) and you get, be 'erets, or within a land.

Add a Waw (tent peg / nail from the cross) and get Wa'erets, or 'and a land.'

Add Hey (Behold a great work) and get Ha'erets, or THE land.

Add the Lamed (Shepherd's Crook) and get 'toward a land,' as in the new land of Earth II. We are baptized, cross the wilderness (The Land) and exit egypt (refinery), but first, we must cross the Jordan and the sea must be parted. Water is the mechanism for baptism. Mother in Hebrew is Aleph (Strong) Mem (Waters). She is the catalyst for the letters (Aleph Bet) and Words (humanity as the slices of bread). The heel of the bread is Adam and the last Adam. The Son of God involved into the material with us from the beginning. He rises again (Bread) after being baked in the oven by the baker (Genesis 40). He bears the cup for us. The baker meets a different end (Ram caught in the thicket).

If you add MEM to erets, you get Me'erets, which is the water carrying us away from the land (beasts in the flood).


Here, you are speaking of the seed of Cain. The sons of Cain are mentioned here:

1 John 4

[SIZE=.75em]11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. [/SIZE]

As for eating food sacrificed to idols, this is the Pagan Mystery School of Nimrod. Babel was the cutting of Osiris into pieces. They are the sons of Cain mentioned here:

[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] and hers;
he will crush[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Again, the heel represents each side of the loaf of bread. It also represents the change of authority. Just like we use commands to heel a dog, the same applies here. Jacob means heel, as in the heels of Esau when he was born. The birthright was traded and we now have a new Lord (Jesus Christ), the Son of God gaining the inheritance. The fallen Guardian Cherub lost that right due to commerce in the Kingdom of God (The Heavens / Principalities, Powers and Rulers in Heavenly Realms). Ephesians 3 outlines the disclosure that there are families in Heaven. Again, the change in authority is the heels of the messiah, which are also his walk in the garden with God. He is the Loaf of bread mentioned here. We walk in his shoes bearing the cup.

1 Corinthians 10

[SIZE=.75em]16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.[/SIZE]

I get ahead of myself here. I will outline many of these things in upcoming threads. I have a word study on the 'Heel' that I can share in a thread that shows you how the angel of heel on a sailing vessel is the same heel as the English Heel of the loaf and the Hebrew heel of authority. The mast (bones) must bend in the water (dry bones rise to new life).



All of the above heavens are mirrored on Earth. We do not know the fulfillment of scriptures, but we have a good idea that it involves the two sides (beasts in pairs) that are needed for all of us. The Son of God must be fully human. If you read the end of the genealogy in Luke 3, you see that the Son of God created Adam. This identifies the LORD of the Old Testament as the Son of God creating the second creation of Genesis 2. The first creation is Elohim (Godhead). Above, it is in perfection (RISEN). Below, it is the material world in cycles repeating. Compare this to a moving image replayed to train souls and give sentience. God has already been to the end. He is living in Eternity now. We are riding the wave of the timeline to get there.

Where? You already have the answer, but not the larger territory of why it is so. Don't get me wrong. I do not have it either. We are all blind men describing fire here.


We all have a Cain to overcome if we are to find our Abel.

Ya noe it's funy ST how jus' dis morn'n i told a friend that here i was a pack'in up me stuff, tie'in up me luse ends, fix'in to dust oft me sandal's and get gett'in along me merry way wen dis messenger shows up a say'in, "SelectThis!" And see'in as how i'm not one to pass up a cold drink of water i suppose, (the Good Lord will'in) i mite jus'ta see fit ta sit back for a tad, find me a cozy bay, and watch tha thunder clouds i sees a roll'in in. Tanx fer dat cup o' cold water and fer bring'in dose thunder clouds wit Yah! And I mean that truly brother. And i do sees we be a much closer disdance den i first judged. It'l be intrest'in, (the Good Lord will'in) to peruze thru yor threads wen dei get some meat tu'um! And the Mal'ak of YHWH lead you into the Land, bless your Bread of Life and Living Water, and write the name of the Father in your forehead! :)

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[SelectThis!]

Ya noe it's funy ST how jus' dis morn'n i told a friend that here i was a pack'in up me stuff, tie'in up me luse ends, fix'in to dust oft me sandal's and get gett'in along me merry way wen dis messenger shows up a say'in, "SelectThis!" And see'in as how i'm not one to pass up a cold drink of water i suppose, (the Good Lord will'in) i mite jus'ta see fit ta sit back for a tad, find me a cozy bay, and watch tha thunder clouds i sees a roll'in in. Tanx fer dat cup o' cold water and fer bring'in dose thunder clouds wit Yah! And I mean that truly brother. And i do sees we be a much closer disdance den i first judged. It'l be intrest'in, (the Good Lord will'in) to peruze thru yor threads wen dei get some meat tu'um! And the Mal'ak of YHWH lead you into the Land, bless your Bread of Life and Living Water, and write the name of the Father in your forehead! :)

Funny, I just dusted off my sandals last week to travel here.

It is interesting to note that the word Malak is used 214 times in the Old Testament. Half of those occurrences refer to men like Jacob, prophets and kings. Malachi 2:7 even refers to the post-captivity priests in these terms. It is the office of the one sent.

Not just the forehead, but on the heart.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Jude 1

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

 

[daq]

Funny, I just dusted off my sandals last week to travel here.

It is interesting to note that the word Malak is used 214 times in the Old Testament. Half of those occurrences refer to men like Jacob, prophets and kings. Malachi 2:7 even refers to the post-captivity priests in these terms. It is the office of the one sent.

Not just the forehead, but on the heart.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Jude 1

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Yes, it is the duty of the Kohen Gadol to bless the bread and the water of the people and write the name of the Father upon them; and the Father, the Great Husbandman, takes away sickness from the midst of us, (Exodus 23:25). The Kohen Gadol is therefore the man clothed in linen having the inkhorn of the writer at his side:

Ezekiel 9:1-4 KJV
1. He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
2. And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3. And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4. And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Revelation 3:12 KJV
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Matthew 13:47-49 KJV
47. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49. So shall it be at the end of the world: ["sunteleia tou aionos"-consummation of the age (two aionos-ages to the man)] the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among [mesos] the just,

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

You know it has been said that the heart of every man is his head; lofty, and lifted up-exalted like a strong branch from within the midst of a mighty tree which shoots its bough straight up between the other branches exalting himself above the heavens. Thus the power of the people holy must be completely shattered, (for our own good). Likewise it has been said that the heart of Moshe was pierced all the way through like the stone tables and what proceeded thereafter came forth through the new ventricles which were opened up in his new living heart along with his newly opened eyes of Spirit. :)

 

[SelectThis!]

You know it has been said that the heart of every man is his head; lofty, and lifted up-exalted like a strong branch from within the midst of a mighty tree which shoots its bough straight up between the other branches exalting himself above the heavens. Thus the power of the people holy must be completely shattered, (for our own good). Likewise it has been said that the heart of Moshe was pierced all the way through like the stone tables and what proceeded thereafter came forth through the new ventricles which were opened up in his new living heart along with his newly opened eyes of Spirit. :)

I really enjoy reading your stuff. You are speaking of the fig tree that was cut to the stump. Matthew 24 then describes the generation that sees the tender shoot grow to bear leaves and figs. That tree actually exists today in Israel. Of course, this is pure symbolism. The part of filling the righteous in to good vessels is part of the baptism symbolized by the flood.

1 Peter 3

[SIZE=.75em]18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]19 After being made alive,[d][/SIZE] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— [SIZE=.75em]20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,[/SIZE] 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SIZE=.75em]22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.[/SIZE]

I have one paradoxical question for you and I think you might have an answer. This is actually something I have wrestled with lately. If we are called to rest on the Sabbath (1000 years of rest), why are we called back to life? Is this a paradox? Or, is the rest here on Earth with Christ as Lord? This is a perplexing quandary. If involution is a call to the waters for work, then rising back to rest seems like the more appropriate thing to do. How do you see this? It could be that there is a transition time leading to the day of the Lord. In this case, the time of rest starts with us in our room of rest while God executes judgment. Possibly the rapture? See this verse:

Isaiah 26


[SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.



[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, SelectThis!, ajdiamond, and anyone else like you.

This only will I ask, and how you answer this question will determine for me whether you could really be considered a brother or not. I do not believe in heaven, per se, but ...

If God were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" How would you respond?

CAREFULLY consider your answer. And, I DARE each one of you to give an answer! If you cannot, you have GIVEN me your answer indeed.

 

[ajdiamond]

I politely decline your dare. Thank you for the chat.

Grace and peace to you,

--aj

 

[daq]

I really enjoy reading your stuff. You are speaking of the fig tree that was cut to the stump. Matthew 24 then describes the generation that sees the tender shoot grow to bear leaves and figs. That tree actually exists today in Israel. Of course, this is pure symbolism. The part of filling the righteous in to good vessels is part of the baptism symbolized by the flood.

1 Peter 3

[SIZE=.75em]18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]19 After being made alive,[d][/SIZE] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— [SIZE=.75em]20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,[/SIZE] 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SIZE=.75em]22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.[/SIZE]

I have one paradoxical question for you and I think you might have an answer. This is actually something I have wrestled with lately. If we are called to rest on the Sabbath (1000 years of rest), why are we called back to life? Is this a paradox? Or, is the rest here on Earth with Christ as Lord? This is a perplexing quandary. If involution is a call to the waters for work, then rising back to rest seems like the more appropriate thing to do. How do you see this? It could be that there is a transition time leading to the day of the Lord. In this case, the time of rest starts with us in our room of rest while God executes judgment. Possibly the rapture? See this verse:

Isaiah 26


[SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.



[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Thank you for the kind word. :)

The fig tree that was dug up and fertilized bare no fruit three years but in the fourth generation, if it was to bare fruit, comes the harvest, (and every man has a fig, a vine, and four generations in the first age). Perhaps those three and a half years of the fig tree that was dug up are literal years for each and every man in his or her own appointed times? Yet no one knows his time before the times, (when the Tamiyd is taken away then shall the sons of the bridechamber fast). However, I spoke firstly of this passage:

Ezekiel 31:2-14 KJV
2. Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
3. Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
4. The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5. Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
6. All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7. Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8. The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
10. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11. I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.
12. And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.
13. Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches:
14. To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Yea, all the mighty trees such as the Assyrian, and Pharaoh, and Yavan, and the Rapha', and all those genos-kind are brought down to the sides of the pit for the lofty pride of the heart and the eyes high and lifted up, (but after many days which are but a day they are visited and loosed for a chronos-mikros). And upon the carcasses of them shall the fowls of heaven summer in the harvest time, (for there is a body psuchikos, and there is a body pneumatikos; and the wise one sows to the soma pneumatikos, laying up his treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust can corrupt and where thieves do not break through nor steal). O YHWH 'Eloheynuw, other 'adonim apart from thee have had ba`al-mastery over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. Dead ones, [they are] not do they live: Rapha'im, [they are] not shall they rise: therefore hast thou visited upon them and dost destroy them, Yea, all their memory thou dost destroy. Thou hast added [yacaph-yoceph] to the nation, O YHWH, thou hast added [yacaph-yoceph] to the nation: thou art glorified: thou hast extended far off all the [four] corners of the earth. O YHWH, in affliction-tribulation they visited thee, they poured out a quiet whisper when thy chastening was upon them. As a woman with child drawing near the time of her delivery is in pain, and cries out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O YHWH. We have conceived, we have writhed in pain, we have as it were brought forth ruwach; salvation not have we wrought in 'erets; neither have fallen the inhabitants of the world. Thy dead ones live; my carrion they shall arise. Ye that reverence YHWH, praise him; all ye the seed of Yacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Yisrael. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, the Father heard him! My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that reverence him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise YHWH that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto YHWH: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For unto YHWH is the Kingdom: and he is the governor among the nations. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted unto YHWH for a generation. By his understanding my Righteous Servant shall justify many; for he shall bear the iniquities of them. Therefore I will apportion to him among the many, and with the mighty he shall divide the spoil; for he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he lifted away the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Awaken, and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for the dew of lights is thy dew; and the 'arets Rapha'im shall fall. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation passover. For, behold, YHWH cometh out of his place to visit upon the iniquity of the inhabitants of ha'arets: and shall disclose her blood ha'arets, and shall no more cover her slain. Awaken O sleeper, talitha cumi, arise from the dead; and the Anatole-Daystar shall arise in your heart with healing in his wings. First come the days, the same Lazaros days wherein Danie'l was also stricken, (and his name was changed to Dani'el). The three days and the hemisu are the first half of the literal shabuwa`-week because Yeshua already fulfilled the last half of the week to commence the circuit, (Lazaros 7:14-38). And with those three days and the hemisu comes a great voice from heaven, saying, "Anabatehode!" and the Watchers will be watching. And the End thereof truly is the New Genesis wherein there is no night. After that, if indeed you overcome in the mo`ed appointed time, then perhaps like Filippos they will find you somewhere in Azotos, resting, and sharing with brethren. :)