Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[Mink57]

That's cool guys!

My fiance and I are going through Duolingo to learn Scottish Gaelic. It's a bit rough to learn, but we're continuing through it.

Scottish Gaelic? Whoa....! What EVER possessed you....? Interesting choice!

I have a 31 year old daughter who was in College and had to take several languages. She took Arabic...Mandarin Chinese and a few others.

But Scottish Gaelic?

Do tell!

 

[Mink57]

Really cool. Are the screenwritings for films or games? Maybe podcasts. Anything horror driven?

For films. Mostly a religious theme. Supernatural.

Horror driven? Eh. Screenplays these days need to have a little bit of everything in order to be successful.

Let's put it this way, without giving away the farm but...one screenplay has to do with a Native American indian...who meets Sasquatch...and Sasquatch turns out to be one of the Nephilium...who redeems himself....

Ha! Could tell you more in a private message...

 

[Naomanos]

Scottish Gaelic? Whoa....! What EVER possessed you....? Interesting choice!

I have a 31 year old daughter who was in College and had to take several languages. She took Arabic...Mandarin Chinese and a few others.

But Scottish Gaelic?

Do tell!

We're fans of the show Outlander and both have minor Scottish roots, so it seemed natural, little did we know we would be torturing ourselves.

 

[Mink57]

We're fans of the show Outlander and both have minor Scottish roots, so it seemed natural, little did we know we would be torturing ourselves.

ahhhhhh, I see!

So, I guess that because I'm a fan of Star Trek...the oringnal series...I could become interested in learning...
....Klingon?

You know I'm just playin' right now. A little levity from the thread...

 

[Skovand]

ahhhhhh, I see!

So, I guess that because I'm a fan of Star Trek...the oringnal series...I could become interested in learning...
....Klingon?

You know I'm just playin' right now. A little levity from the thread...

I’ve never seen a single Star Trek episode but I saw one of the new films. I keep meaning to watch the original TV series. I like sci fi but I like horror more and always end up on tubi watching found footage horror instead lol. The Creep Tapes are finally out. Well first few episodes .

 

[Naomanos]

ahhhhhh, I see!

So, I guess that because I'm a fan of Star Trek...the oringnal series...I could become interested in learning...
....Klingon?

You know I'm just playin' right now. A little levity from the thread...

Lol

 

[Rita]

Perhaps best to get back on track now …….there is an entertainment section - so you could start a thread about what you have been talking about. Just for the record, I grew up on the original Star Trek and Star Wars - Love the Chris pine films of the younger Kirk x
ok so that my contribution to the off topic part………

 

[Wynona]

It’s what me and my girlfriend’s relationship essentially is. We are equals. I can’t imagine a nontoxic version where I somehow have power
Over her. Not even really sure what that looks like. I would just demand she did what I wanted? Seems toxic. I think she and I both prefer equality.

I would say most people in my generation view patriarchy and traditional marriage as toxic.

Text is bad at conveying tone. In a neutral, curious sense,

What do you think patriarchy is/looks like in a relationship?

Im not looking for the "right" answer. I genuinely want to know how you picture it unpersuaded.

I think its valuable to hear this because I love focusing on the benefits of traditional marriage but I can lose touch of how most people percieve headship and submission in the process.

 

[Wynona]

Why are you ignoring what she herself has said?

She said that viewpoints other than her own are allowed in this thread. This make what we’re talking about on-topic.

Right.

IMaybe I should explain my thinking on what makes debates go well...

Cream always rises to the top. I think being too defensive and hostile can weaken your argument.

If an idea has merit, it can stand without that sort of thing. C.S Lewis compared truth to a lion. You don't defend a lion, you just let it out.

I welcome opposing views...because they ultimately help my case in the long run. Im very confident. And when you're confident, shutting down opposition isn't needed.

 

[Jay Ross]

Ever since this thread was started, my spirit was prompting me to say we will not trump over feminism if we attempt to do this in our own strength as by trying to trump over feminism, we have turned away from God and into sinning by acting God like.

In 2 Chronicles 12 God tells us that He is in control of pestilence, weather and locusts and that if we want the "land" where we live to be healed, then we, who are called by God's name, collectively need to humble ourselves and repent of the sin of turning away from God and acting in our own strength. How often does this thread encourage us all to act in our own strength to overcome feminism which is foolishness.

It is better that we pray that God will include them amongst those whom He is drawing to Himself so that they may know His love just for them personally and His protective embrace of them so that they can grow to Love the Lord God with all of their heart.

And while we are at praying for them to be drawn into God's loving embrace, that we also ask that He also will draw us too into His loving Embrace and correct us when we act foolishly.

Shalom

 

[Wynona]

I can be very ambitious in pursuit of being an excellent wife, Mom, and homemaker. But none of those things are complete without love.

Love is mainly sacrificial rather than unconditional---being willing to suffer for the sake of others.

When I complain about the things I do for my family---I reveal my heart. That I was doing the work for myself and not for them. True love works hard and does not make the people served feel how hard the work was. No grumbling and complaining.

Love suffers long and is kind.

My husband worked a 14 hour shift yesterday. He got home and still helped me with the toddler and baby without complaining.

I am ashamed. I feel self pity despite how often everyone tries to help me.

Feminism is mainly about self preservation. Christianity is not about that. Its not wrong to act in your self interest necessarily. But to love someone will cost that very often. It cost the Lord.

Male leadership in marriage is not about control at the expense of others. It is about taking responsibility and being the first to sacrifice while taking authority of a household.

Submission is not weakness or passivity in a marriage. It is a choice to obey and respect the husband out of reverence for the Lord Himself.

 

[Naomanos]

It is about taking responsibility

This I will do, but so will my fiancé. We are both responsible for the household, not just me. She doesn’t want me taking all of the responsibility for the household.

being the first to sacrifice

I agree and she doesn’t too and will also sacrifice first at times. Remember, her and I are in this together.

taking authority of a household

We will both have authority over the house. It is the way we will choose to do our marriage. Neither one wants all the authority and wants to share the authority.

As I said in a prior post, I was raised mostly by my grandparents who had an egalitarian marriage. They were together for 59 years and would have still been together longer had cancer not reared its ugly head and taken my grandmother. My grandfather died two short years later on the eve of 9/11. He gave up living.

This is my example to follow. They were very happily married and the marriage was great.

 

[Wynona]

This I will do, but so will my fiancé. We are both responsible for the household, not just me. She doesn’t want me taking all of the responsibility for the household.

IWhen I say the man takes responsibility, I dont mean the woman takes none. Married women absolutely can make or break the way a marriage and household operate. We have a huge role to play. We can tear down a household or build it up.


What I mean is that the man is on the front lines and owns it. The success of the household is not exclusively on him but something he takes ownership of as the one who has the final say on what goes on.

This is not toxic, it's how the Lord operates. Jesus tells the Church what to do and how it should be done. ---He laid his life down for His Bride, setting an example for how husbands are to lay down their lives for their wives. The Church responds by obeying, and actively serving the Lord's interests out of love and reverence for Him.

If people want an egalitarian marriage to work, I don't doubt it will take the same virtues that a traditional marriage would to succeed.

However, the biblical standard is still that the man is on the front lines through leadership, provision, and protection. The woman submits. Its a high standard for both parties. But it is the Christian standard.


For all I know, your view of an egalitarian marriage includes all the virtues I think a traditional marriage needs but without the wife submitting. Im not sure what your view of authority and leadership are. They aren't inherently toxic.

What Ive experienced is that trying to view myself as a partner who shouldn't have to submit my separate education/career goals and interests led to a breakdown in trust between my husband and I that almost ended the marriage.

What Scripture calls for is a one flesh union with the wife as a companion and helpmate, not a wife who pushes in a different direction than her husband with competing goals and interests.

It was me who asked my husband to lead while dating. Neither of us really knew what that looked like. I asked him to do it so I could feel cherished, protected, and loved.

My parents are happy together with each other but my Dad's passivity burdened my Mom unnecessarily and left me feeling emotionally neglected.

Leadership was something I craved because I do not want the burden of it. I specifically wanted my husband to bear that burden because to love is to sacrifice and I want to feel loved.

 

[Naomanos]

What I mean is that the man is on the front lines and owns it. The success of the household is not exclusively on him but something he takes ownership of as the one who has the final say on what goes on.

Neither of us want this for our marriage. I am not a leader, never have been and have no want or need to lead. She doesn’t want me having final say on what goes on as she knows it is a heavy burden to bear and doesn’t want me to bear it alone. This is why we’re egalitarian. I saw it work well for my grandparents and I know it works.

I’m not saying that traditional marriages are toxic. I think I have said that if it works for your marriage, then who can tell you not to do it? I didn’t say it so many words before. If my egalitarian marriage works when we get married and the marriage is wonderful, why should it change? It may not be traditional, but it’s working. Every marriage is different and there is no cookie cutter way of doing marriage life. I know there will be those that disagree with me, but I stand by that statement.

They aren't inherently toxic.

I don’t think I ever said they were.

What Ive experienced is that trying to view myself as a partner who shouldn't have to submit my separate education/career goals and interests led to a breakdown in trust between my husband and I that almost ended the marriage.

Maybe that is specific to your marriage? Not all marriages are the same. I don’t mind that my fiancé has separate education/career goals and interests. I don’t want her to only have my education/career goals and interests. She needs to have her own goals and interests separate from me. When we get married we will be one, but we are still separate people with our own goals and interests. We will have some goals that are the same as well.

What Scripture calls for is a one flesh union with the wife as a companion and helpmate, not a wife who pushes in a different direction than her husband with competing goals and interests.

I don’t see her goals and interests as competing. She will still be her own person with her own interests and goals. There is nothing competing about that. I want her to have those and not be focused on mine all the time.

It was me who asked my husband to lead while dating. Neither of us really knew what that looked like. I asked him to do it so I could feel cherished, protected, and loved.

She doesn’t need me to lead to feel those things. She feels those things every day by my actions that have nothing to do with leading. This is another maybe this is unique to you and not every woman is the same?

I specifically wanted my husband to bear that burden because to love is to sacrifice and I want to feel loved.

One doesn’t need to be a leader to sacrifice. There are ways to sacrifice that don’t involve leadership. My fiance doesn’t need me to be a leader to sacrifice for her or for her to feel loved. She feels loved by me not being a leader and showing her daily how much I love her by my everyday actions, which have nothing to do with leadership.

 

[Naomanos]

I feel like I am not sufficiently explaining everything to show that the way we will do marriage is not a license to fail.

It is how we have come to the decision run our marriage based off of us, based off how we do things and how we are as a couple now. We know that a traditional marriage will not work for us. Especially since I am not a leader.

 

[Wynona]

Maybe that is specific to your marriage? Not all marriages are the same. I don’t mind that my fiancé has separate education/career goals and interests. I don’t want her to only have my education/career goals and interests. She needs to have her own goals and interests separate from me. When we get married we will be one, but we are still separate people with our own goals and interests. We will have some goals that are the same as well.

You are free to do as you wish of course. Marriage roles are a matter of of wisdom, not necessarily life or death.

What happens if you disagree on something important? How do conflicts get resolved?

I think the equal say approach is unwise for several reasons. Conflict resolution problems are one reason.Human nature is another. Women will get leadership from somewhere if not their marriage. A boss at work, pastor, or parent maybe. You both may be fine with that. I hope it stays that way.

I don't think great leadership is something anyone is born with.

My husband learned through trial and error. I am not naturally submissive. Its not a matter of personality but practice.

Its not so much that egalitarian marriages never work. I see it more like walking a tightrope. Not impossible, but way more difficult and risky. Life throws its curveballs and there is no way to predict them. I dislike egalitarianism because of the foundation becomes a lot shakier than the ideal, not because it can never work.

You clearly want it to work so I hope it does. But I won't be recommending it.

 

[Mink57]

You are free to do as you wish of course. Marriage roles are a matter of of wisdom, not necessarily life or death.

What happens if you disagree on something important? How do conflicts get resolved?

You and Wrangler BOTH seem to be hung up on this.

What do you consider to be "something important"?

Then again, what about compromise?

I think the equal say approach is unwise for several reasons. Conflict resolution problems are one reason.Human nature is another. Women will get leadership from somewhere if not their marriage. A boss at work, pastor, or parent maybe. You both may be fine with that. I hope it stays that way.

Not even close. Even though I've had a number of bosses at work, it wasn't ALWAYS "Their way or the highway." The bosses who DID try the "my way or the highway" approach were often dismissed from the company for not being a team player.

I don't think great leadership is something anyone is born with.

My husband learned through trial and error. I am not naturally submissive. Its not a matter of personality but practice.

But why does either/or HAVE to be the leader ALL the time, or submissive ALL the time?

Its not so much that egalitarian marriages never work. I see it more like walking a tightrope. Not impossible, but way more difficult and risky. Life throws its curveballs and there is no way to predict them. I dislike egalitarianism because of the foundation becomes a lot shakier than the ideal, not because it can never work.

You clearly want it to work so I hope it does. But I won't be recommending it.

Apparently, you didn't read through any of the information through the link I provided. It's not that egalitarian marriages "never work", or even HARDLY work. Statistically, it's just the opposite. They are the MOST successful type of marriage. And because they are more successful, they ARE the 'ideal'.

Egalitarian marriage does NOT mean that EVERYTHING in marriage is split EQUALLY, ALL the time. It means that BOTH people's opinions matter EQUALLY. It means that there are no specific 'roles' based on gender. For example, it doesn't mean that the woman is ALWAYS responsible for childcare, because she's the 'woman', and that the man MUST be the breadwinner, because he's the man. A man is just as capable of taking care of an infant and doing household chores just like a woman is capable of bringing home the bacon. Got NOTHING to do with gender.

Those rigid 'roles' get tossed out of the window...and a new 'model' is welcome. There is no chaos, as alleged by naysayers. There IS cooperation in the sense that we BOTH do 'whatever it takes'. For example, if the wife has to work late, the husband has NO PROBLEM making dinner and taking care of the kids. Maybe they can sit down as a family to eat, and after dinner is done, SHE cleans up, while HE entertains the kids. Maybe SHE gives the kids a bath...or they BOTH do that. Maybe after the kids are tucked in (by EITHER parent or BOTH parents) they sit down to do the bills...TOGETHER. Hmmm...do we pay this Visa bill off all at once and struggle for the next month or two, or do we spread it out over 4 months? Maybe SHE realizes that they'll need the money to buy a gift for a friend's anniversary...something that HE may have forgotten, even HE was the one to suggest it a month earlier. They decide TOGETHER to forestall paying that bill all at once.

Or, if they can't decide, they bring it to a third party...which, by the way IS biblical.

 

[Naomanos]

You are free to do as you wish of course. Marriage roles are a matter of of wisdom, not necessarily life or death.

I agree with this. However, there are those who will tell you it is indeed a matter of life or death.

What happens if you disagree on something important? How do conflicts get resolved?

You must have missed where I explained this before.

If there is a conflict on something that needs to be purchased, the discussion will get tabled. If after time has gone by and we still cannot come to an agreement, then that thing doesn’t get purchased. Other conflicts get resolved by who may have the most knowledge on a certain subject. There is no, I get the final say. I would be extremely uncomfortable if that was required of me and thankfully, that she doesn’t want that either.

I think the equal say approach is unwise for several reasons. Conflict resolution problems are one reason.Human nature is another.

Is that not where sacrifice comes in at times?

I disagree that the equal say approach is unwise. I would try to explain it, but I would not do a good job of it.

Women will get leadership from somewhere if not their marriage. A boss at work, pastor, or parent maybe.

I sent the above to my fiance to get her take on it. Her response was, of course she gets leadership at work. She has a manager that over sees her and the others in her position. However, that manager is a woman. She doesn’t talk to her father much and he is not one for telling his 45 year old daughter what she should do in her relationships. His take is she is a grown woman and can make her own choices. As for her mom, she has said, that her mom doesn’t want to get involved in our relationship. We don’t go to church currently. That’s another story that I have told here before.

Essentially, my ex- wife doesn’t want me taking the kids to an Episcopal church, she demands that I take them to a non-denominational church or a Pentecostal church. I won’t go to either one. So, I talked with our priest and he said that for now my going to church isn’t an issue in order to keep the peace. My wife has final say on religious upbringing, so if I bring them to a church not of her choosing, I can get in trouble with the courts. So, I watch video recording of my church services.

I don't think great leadership is something anyone is born with.

I can agree with that, but some just don’t have a leadership bone in their body so to speak. That’s me.

My husband learned through trial and error. I am not naturally submissive. Its not a matter of personality but practice.

See above. There is no practice makes perfect for me. I simply am not a leader. I am fine with that.

Its not so much that egalitarian marriages never work. I see it more like walking a tightrope. Not impossible, but way more difficult and risky. Life throws its curveballs and there is no way to predict them.

I don’t see it as walking a tightrope. I never saw my grandparents walking a tightrope. They handled the curveballs as they came. They never wavered.

I dislike egalitarianism because of the foundation becomes a lot shakier than the ideal

Which is your opinion, right? Again, my grandparents had a solid foundation. I see their marriage is one to look up to and to emulate.

You clearly want it to work so I hope it does.

Thank you! I know it will work. I have no doubts in my mind.

But I won't be recommending it.

That’s fair. I will always recommended it when asked.

 

[Skovand]

I would say most people in my generation view patriarchy and traditional marriage as toxic.

Text is bad at conveying tone. In a neutral, curious sense,

What do you think patriarchy is/looks like in a relationship?

Im not looking for the "right" answer. I genuinely want to know how you picture it unpersuaded.

I think it’s valuable to hear this because I love focusing on the benefits of traditional marriage but I can lose touch of how most people percieve headship and submission in the process.

So here are some of the ways in this modern society that we see patriarchal values being showcased.

1. Women are meant to be home makers. Not that they can choose to be, but that biologically, inherently women are supposed to be wives and moms. That women are missing out on something by not getting married or having kids.

2. That there are certain jobs where women should stay out of. Like the military or MMA. That women should not be cops. That if they do have a job, it should be as a waitress, a cashier, wedding planner or floral designer. That women are meant to be kept in safe little bubbles and never ever come in contact with the ferocity of the world because of a career choice.

3. That a woman with a degree is probably just wasting money. That women don’t need jobs, they need hobbies. Sure, sometimes they can make a little money from a hobby, but if their husband or kids ever need them, they are the ones that need to drop everything and rush to the house or school.

Often those can also be expressed to wives by their husbands but here are some that tend to be directed more towards women with male significant others.

4. A woman does not need male friends. A woman should only have female friends. Especially wife. It’s inappropriate for a wife to have close male friends. A wife going out to eat without her husband is somehow immoral, or playing with fire. That to have opposite sex friends is to tempt sin instead of fleeing from it. That a woman can’t have private conservations with a male friend that they don’t want to the husband to know. That a wife, in general, should have to share everything with her husband or either she’s passively cheating/lying.

5. That a woman, especially a wife, should be covered up. That women’s bodies naturally are seductive and dangerous ( those curves ) and that a wife wearing a bikini or yoga pants is somehow not satisfied with her husband and showing off for attention.

6. That woman are a sort of trophy to be shown off by the husband. Her value is in how obedient she is. How quiet she is. How small of a place she takes up.

To be honest the patriarchy in the marriage is the same as outside of marriage.

Basically if a wife can only have female friends the husband approaches us, or either she’s being disobey or shady is patriarchy. That a woman should not prioritize her career or education over that of her husband or child is patriarchy but that if a husband needs a degree to get a better job, even if that means the kid needs to go to public school for a few years it’s smart. If a woman can’t share her thoughts, but ultimately it’s the husbands responsibility to make the choice that’s patriarchal and bad. That a wife needs to always be ready to sleep with her husband, or he gets mad, that’s bad. If a wife can’t wear yoga pants to the store after going to the gym or else she’s just a flirt that’s bad.

Some films touch up on this. The movie “ The Stepford Wives, “ and “ The Shape of Water” both shows how toxic patriarchy in the marriage, and by extension outside of it, is bad. Patriarchy is allowing women to have a choice while equality is recognizing they have the right to their own voice.

 

[Wynona]

I disagree that the equal say approach is unwise. I would try to explain it, but I would not do a good job of it.

I don’t see it as walking a tightrope. I never saw my grandparents walking a tightrope. They handled the curveballs as they came. They never wavered.

I am feeling uneasy. Two Reasons.

1. Assuming that not leading will never harm the relationship or you in the relationship is unwise. Time and life events can change a woman's priorities.

2. Assuming that your marriage will operate like your grandparents from the word go is also unwise.

Ya'll aren't them. You may not fully understand what efforts were needed to reach what they have now 59 years in. They may have entered the marriage with a lot less baggage and in a time and culture thats a lot more marriage-friendly than ours is now.

Im not under the illusion that youll change any plans. There is no risk free relationship. But your eyes should be wide open.