Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[Wynona]

If in your relationship your husband is your companion and helpmeet, then I would say that this is representative of Christ and the church.

I’m by no means judging, my wife and I have struggled with this for nearly 37 years.

II ask a lot of questions but I wanted to be clear on what you were trying to say. There are a lot of practical things we talked about in this thread. It sounds like you are coming at the topic from a more spiritual and doctrinal point of view. Thanks for participating, by the way. I am thankful for pretty much anyone who engages.

I agree that Christ and the Church are represented in the wife being a companion and helpmeet.

 

[Wynona]

I wanted to mention...

Feminism's strongest arguement for women focusing on careers and putting off marriage is that they need to be able to support themselves should their husbands die, abuse them, cheat, or just leave.

But this taught me that relying on myself and my achievements was better than trusting my husband to protect, provide, and honor his vows. Each time he got angry or displayed immaturity in our first year, I filed it under, "see. Men cannot be trusted in the end. I have to keep my options open. I have to always havea way out."

But college and working took energy and focus away from my husband and what I could do to make the marriage work. And he could sense how I wasn't fully invested in staying married to him. I would separate from him at least three times before things reached a tipping point and I began to examine my own flaws as person.

 

[Waiting on him]

II ask a lot of questions but I wanted to be clear on what you were trying to say. There are a lot of practical things we talked about in this thread. It sounds like you are coming at the topic from a more spiritual and doctrinal point of view. Thanks for participating, by the way. I am thankful for pretty much anyone who engages.

I agree that Christ and the Church are represented in the wife being a companion and helpmeet.

In my mind the role of Christ/head is coming under the servant elevating them to an equal serving to their edification.

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

This includes the females. This word unity being of the utmost importance.

ONE.

 

[Wynona]

In my mind the role of Christ/head is coming under the servant elevating them to an equal serving to their edification.

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

This includes the females. This word unity being of the utmost importance.

ONE.

Does Christ get to tell the Church what to do for the Church's edification?

Husbands serve in marriage. Do they get to direct their wives?

What happens if they disagree with each other? How do they reach unity again?

 

[Wynona]

@Waiting on him

Are Christians unified because we all serve one Lord in different ways? Or because we are all the same, and do the same things?

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him

Are Christians unified because we all serve one Lord in different ways? Or because we are all the same, and do the same things?

We’re all of the same mind.

 

[Waiting on him]

Does Christ get to tell the Church what to do for the Church's edification?

Husbands serve in marriage. Do they get to direct their wives?

What happens if they disagree with each other? How do they reach unity again?

The doctrine of Christ is this, Christ begins as head. He lower himself to a servant, thereby edify the church.

I’d ask ask in the cultural norm does the husband take on the role of servant and edifying the wife making her an equal. Or does the husband begin as as the head and remain the head with a servant in the house that’s never made an equal?

Have you read Philemon?

 

[Mink57]

Does Christ get to tell the Church what to do for the Church's edification?

Husbands serve in marriage. Do they get to direct their wives?

What happens if they disagree with each other? How do they reach unity again?

You and Wrangler both seem to wrestle with this question.

Perhaps the following article may help: (maybe a 3-4 minute read)

But Who Makes the Final Decision? - CBE International

The practical implications of a marriage where both the husband and wife share leadership and decision-making responsibility.

www.cbeinternational.org

 

[Wynona]

The doctrine of Christ is this, Christ begins as head. He lower himself to a servant, thereby edify the church.

I’d ask ask in the cultural norm does the husband take on the role of servant and edifying the wife making her an equal. Or does the husband begin as as the head and remain the head with a servant in the house that’s never made an equal?

Have you read Philemon?

Yes. With respect, I think we disagree about the doctrine of Christ. He begins as head, lowers to servant but the Father Himself exalts Him right back to Lord of all with absolute authority over the Kingdom.

Philippians 2:8-10
King James Version
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Jesus is not just the suffering servant in my view. He is Lord. He has all power and authority. Power and authority are not bad things by nature. Equality of rank and authority is not the ultimate good.

 

[Wynona]

You and Wrangler both seem to wrestle with this question.

Perhaps the following article may help: (maybe a 3-4 minute read)

But Who Makes the Final Decision? - CBE International

The practical implications of a marriage where both the husband and wife share leadership and decision-making responsibility.

www.cbeinternational.org

I will check out the article. But Scripture is clear that the final say lies with the husband. He represents Christ.

I don't find egalitarianism in marriage a practical good at all in my experience. For a time, we shared work and home responsibilities, trying to divide the work equally I never felt satisfied with how that played out.

I also used to consider my individual goals just as important to consider as his, despite them not benefiting both of us.

This led to conflict. Reframing my role in the marriage as the helpmeet who assists my husband in the calling brought unity and a one-flesh mindset. We are not roommates with separate agendas. We are one flesh pulling together.

 

[Wynona]

I must go lower, and Jesus higher.

The second and third time I separated from my husband, I dated another man. When I returned, I told my husband and he was called to choose between wrath and forgiveness.

He expressed anger and hurt at me in a conversation one day when I retuned. After that, he forgave me and chose to leave vengeance to the Lord.

This shaped my future. The shame I carried long after he had forgiven me taught me that I was not a good person. I needed Christ and to put my whole heart into forming Christ in me, not just half a commitment. I began to read the Bible for myself and found that I lacked obedience and a proper fear of God.

The churches in America tend to be really bad about teaching people to go have a personal relationship with Jesus with obedience as a side benefit. But those who love Jesus obey His commandments (John 15). My light was actually darkness.

My trust in my own way of thinking, including the feminism that influenced my behaviour and lifestyle, allowed me to point the finger at my husband while ignoring my own lack of faithfulness to the Lord and lack of commitment to my husband. I deserved to be alone. I deserved to be treated vindictively.

My husband didn't do that. After that angry time that one conversation , he just let it go. It was me who would keep thinking about it, questioning who I was.

But God doesn't wish to destroy me for my destructive sin. He wanted me to turn towards Him. Through Him, I went from a treacherous wife to a trusted one. It's Jesus and trembling at the Word that restored my honor as a wife.

I am the same person as I was when I betrayed my husband. Yet now, through God's power, my husband now unquestioningly trusts me to live in the same house as his best friend without fear of cheating.

Satan tried to convince me I was doomed to be an attention seeking slave of sin with Daddy issues for life. And without Jesus and His Word, that's how it would be.

But in surrendering my own thinking and my own understanding to every Word of God, I changed. I began reading it daily, and when it formed Christ in me, Christ in me began to conquer the lust, vanity, pride, gluttony, and selfishness that once defined my life. The fear of God is the only thing that allowed our marriage to survive the betrayal and thrive afterward.

God can take what the enemy meant for evil and turn it for our good. May His name be praised forever. But we must fear Him and tremble at His Word. We must bow the knee to all His commandments.

Our ways of thinking seem right to us. But the Word of God stands forever.

 

[Mink57]

I will check out the article. But Scripture is clear that the final say lies with the husband. He represents Christ.

No it doesn't and no he isn't.

I don't find egalitarianism in marriage a practical good at all in my experience. For a time, we shared work and home responsibilities, trying to divide the work equally I never felt satisfied with how that played out.

Why not?

I also used to consider my individual goals just as important to consider as his, despite them not benefiting both of us.

Nothing wrong with that. People are allowed to have separate interests and goals. Not EVERYTHING has to be shared. But again, it depends on what kind of goals you're talking about.

This led to conflict. Reframing my role in the marriage as the helpmeet who assists my husband in the calling brought unity and a one-flesh mindset. We are not roommates with separate agendas. We are one flesh pulling together.

Ok, but the idea of "one flesh" does NOT mean that you're "one flesh" being operated under the HUSBAND's mind. If the two of you agree on something, that's wonderful (Let's say, you both agree to go out for Chinese food). But if you don't both agree (You want Chinese but he wants Italian), you either compromise (You both pick another place to eat, such as a steak house) or ONE of you defers (a.k.a. 'submits') to the other (O.k. Wynona, we'll go for Chinese tonight), while understanding that the next time a decision is needed, you'll defer to HIM (You agree to watch whatever movie HE wants).

The key is for each person in the marriage to have enough maturity to be flexible; and not to be so rigidly attached to EVERY 'want'. We all have our individual likes, dislikes, wishes, preferences, tastes, moods, beliefs, areas of expertise, knowledge, skill, etc. that we bring into a relationship. However, it doesn't mean that once in a relationship, we give ALL of those up...or that we insist on our partner giving his/hers up!

 

[Waiting on him]

You and Wrangler both seem to wrestle with this question.

Perhaps the following article may help: (maybe a 3-4 minute read)

But Who Makes the Final Decision? - CBE International

The practical implications of a marriage where both the husband and wife share leadership and decision-making responsibility.

www.cbeinternational.org

Okay I read the article and have what you will probably see as an odd question. What does God do with the women who can’t bare children?


Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
— 1 Timothy 2:15

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes. With respect, I think we disagree about the doctrine of Christ. He begins as head, lowers to servant but the Father Himself exalts Him right back to Lord of all with absolute authority over the Kingdom.

Philippians 2:8-10
King James Version
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Jesus is not just the suffering servant in my view. He is Lord. He has all power and authority. Power and authority are not bad things by nature. Equality of rank and authority is not the ultimate good.

So in your understanding when do you become unto the measure of stature of the fulness of Christ? A perfect man!

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

 

[Mink57]

Okay I read the article and have what you will probably see as an odd question. What does God do with the women who can’t bare children?


Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
— 1 Timothy 2:15

First of all, neither God HIMSELF nor Jesus HIMSELF directly said to anyone, the words written in 1 Timothy 2:15.

God (directly) said to Adam and Eve to "go forth and multiply". But did He tell ALL people to do this? He already knew that SOME men and women would be physically incapable of multiplying, so the instruction would seem more likely directed at Adam and Eve rather than EVERYONE.

Plus, Jesus also knew that some people would forego marriage (and thereby forego having children) "for the sake of the kingdom" as an acceptable option.

In order to understand 1 Timothy 2:15, you need to begin at 1 Timothy 2:8, which begins "It is my wish then..." which tells me that Paul is speaking of what HE wishes from 2:8 through and including 2:15...and not necessarily what the Father and/or Jesus wishes.

 

[Wynona]

So in your understanding when do you become unto the measure of stature of the fulness of Christ? A perfect man!

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

When we treat His Word like bread every day. It's consistently hearing, meditating on, and acting on the Word of Jesus and His disciples that form Christ in us.

 

[Wynona]

No it doesn't and no he isn't.

Why not?

Nothing wrong with that. People are allowed to have separate interests and goals. Not EVERYTHING has to be shared. But again, it depends on what kind of goals you're talking about.

Ok, but the idea of "one flesh" does NOT mean that you're "one flesh" being operated under the HUSBAND's mind. If the two of you agree on something, that's wonderful (Let's say, you both agree to go out for Chinese food). But if you don't both agree (You want Chinese but he wants Italian), you either compromise (You both pick another place to eat, such as a steak house) or ONE of you defers (a.k.a. 'submits') to the other (O.k. Wynona, we'll go for Chinese tonight), while understanding that the next time a decision is needed, you'll defer to HIM (You agree to watch whatever movie HE wants).

The key is for each person in the marriage to have enough maturity to be flexible; and not to be so rigidly attached to EVERY 'want'. We all have our individual likes, dislikes, wishes, preferences, tastes, moods, beliefs, areas of expertise, knowledge, skill, etc. that we bring into a relationship. However, it doesn't mean that once in a relationship, we give ALL of those up...or that we insist on our partner giving his/hers up!

I understand that flexibility is good in a relationship. My husband insists on a lot of decisions being completely delegated to me.

But the right for him to ask me to obey him for the good of the household and even me as an individual is codified in Scripture. His authority is based on ordained order, not who wants to take turns. (Ephesians 5:22, 1 Peter 3:1, Titus 2:3-5, etc)

God does this for our good. Having order and peace is better than me getting my way 50 percent of the time or insisting on compromise, in which case no one gets their way.

Decision making is not always this fun privelige. I didn't understand at first, but being the one solely responsible when things go wrong is a heavy burden. My husband is often the last to buy anything for himself or indulge in a day off. That is because he knows he is accountable for each decision and action and how it affects me and now our children. This is not about him getting to choose dinner (He always insists I choose).

When crap hits the fan, who is fixing it? When the car breaks down, when were responsible for financial crisis, who is shouldering that?

Its not me. I reap the benefit of him shielding me from much of that type of stress and the first to get tp indulge when his income allows because he sees this as his purpose.

IHe does the shielding so I do the yielding, to allow him the room to direct us the way God would want. If I am constantly wanting a turn, he cannot grow in competence and confidence as a leader the same way as him knowing I must follow his direction as he seeks God.

He cannot opt out of the burden of leadership. Even if he leads poorly, he is accountable for that as well. So the obligation to submit stands.

II no longer have a desire to make the major decisions. I love deciding where to eat, what the house is, what the decor is like, how my schedule and home are run. I don't enjoy deciding how many kids we'll have, which church we'll consider, and other issues.

Jesus did not take turns getting his will done in his life on earth. Or he would have chosen to escape the cross. He was honest about what he wanted but submitted in trust to the Father, knowing good would come of it.

Me submitting did not take my voice, influence, or autonomy away. It gave me a position of trust and honor I had never gotten by power struggling with my husband.

No, our interests and goals may not be exactly the same. But THE goal is to honor Christ in all things in the way God calls us. For that, we work together, him leading, and I assisting without prioritizing a bunch of other things that would get in the way of that call.

 

[MA2444]

I understand that flexibility is good in a relationship. My husband insists on a lot of decisions being completely delegated to me.

That's a blessing if she is smart!

 

[Wynona]

Why not?

The reason why I never liked the results of us dividing the work and chores equally is because we cared about different things and were at each other's throats for not approaching each other's priorities with as much care.

Just being transparent, the way my husband approached chores when he worked on weekends and I took the car through the week drove me nuts. He would take care of it long after I wanted it done. He would not look for ways to jumo up and get it done. It was done when it could no longer be ignored mostly.

At the same time, I hated that my paycheck got absorbed into bills and groceries with no leftover just for me. What was the point of working? For my husband its different. If he doesn't get something for himself, he is satisfied knowing Im taken care of and he put food on the table. Me being in exact same position drove me nuts and made me feel resentful, despite him choosing part time work to accomodate my career goals at the time.

Could it be that our natures just directed us toward different things? Could men and women be different in their approaches? Absolutely. But what I know is that when I quit my job, the level of poverty we sunk to just didn't matter. The arguing frankly just stopped and I felt truly happy just giving the whole housewife thing a shot, doing the chores like I wanted to, and not having to pay the friggin bills with nothing left to show for my labor.

 

[Wynona]

That's a blessing if she is smart!

The other day, my husband said he may have tried micromamaging as a husband in the beginning but quickly learned that this wasn't effective leadership.

No way does he tell me how to run the chores unless Im struggling and need help at some of them. He has no desire to dictate where we eat and he prefers that I choose his outfits. Im the one that executes bill payments and sending money. I don't have an allowance either. I buy what's needed and am simply trusted to stretch that dollar.

Marriage is very difficult in the beginning because trust is not established perfectly.(Feminism undermones trust from the word 'go'.) It is impossible to submit consistently without trusting your husband. But I wasn't always trustworthy.) myself. I had to grow in that.

Good leadership is delegating based on strengths. My strength is in wrangling the odds and ends of life. His strength is enduring work like no one else I know, and obeying the call from the Lord, even when it's hard and requires a lot of sacrifice.