Speculating on ... "the lie" ... (endtimes)

[Purity]

Is that all there is to it? You've provided no proof at all of anything!

God help you my brother!
What I'm asking you is for verification of why you believe what you believe.
Prove to me that the harlot is the Church!
Prove to me that the Church is involved in the apostasy of 2 Thes. 2!
I'm sure that you can do better than "just saying so!"

Its been shown to you but you chose to not see it....you would be like the Pharisee who watch the master from a distance, though shown time and time their understanding had been darkened by their own traditions you end up at the same place as those disciple of John 8.

John 8:43

 

[Purity]

Kaotic requested evidence.

Lets begin with Rev 13:11

Why do you think the Spirit revealed this creature to be "like" a lamb?

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. (Rev 13:11)

In what way does it appear to be Christian?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Kaotic requested evidence.

Lets begin with Rev 13:11

Why do you think the Spirit revealed this creature to be "like" a lamb?

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. (Rev 13:11)

In what way does it appear to be Christian?

It doesn't say this creature was "like a lamb"; it says that it has TWO HORNS like a lamb (a firstling ram) because they are curved like those of such a lamb! Nothing more; nothing less. This beast, whatever IT may represent, had two horns. Period. The horns are not said to "represent" ANYTHING! It's screwy to read more into the verse than that! STICK EXACTLY TO WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS!

 

[zhavoney]

Shalom, Purity.


It doesn't say this creature was "like a lamb"; it says that it has TWO HORNS like a lamb (a firstling ram) because they are curved like those of such a lamb! Nothing more; nothing less. This beast, whatever IT may represent, had two horns. Period. The horns are not said to "represent" ANYTHING! It's screwy to read more into the verse than that! STICK EXACTLY TO WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS!

It is a dragon that wants you to believe it is a Lamb. It wants you to think it is a Lamb of God.

 

[Purity]

It is a dragon that wants you to believe it is a Lamb. It wants you to think it is a Lamb of God.

Correct - the question for Kaotic is what Christian body is here represented?

Shalom, Purity.


It doesn't say this creature was "like a lamb"; it says that it has TWO HORNS like a lamb (a firstling ram) because they are curved like those of such a lamb! Nothing more; nothing less. This beast, whatever IT may represent, had two horns. Period. The horns are not said to "represent" ANYTHING! It's screwy to read more into the verse than that! STICK EXACTLY TO WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS!

Just to confirm you are saying the two horns have absolutely no representation at all?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Correct - the question for Kaotic is what Christian body is here represented?

Just to confirm you are saying the two horns have absolutely no representation at all?

Correct. Why should they? They are given no specific significance; so, why go inventing one?

 

[Purity]

Shalom, Purity.

Correct. Why should they? They are given no specific significance; so, why go inventing one?

So you know the mind of God on this?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

So you know the mind of God on this?

And, just what is THAT supposed to mean?! I know that it contributes nothing to the meaning of the beast (wild animal), or Yochanan would have mentioned it. I suppose that YOU know the mind of God on this better than I?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Kaotic requested evidence.

Lets begin with Rev 13:11

Why do you think the Spirit revealed this creature to be "like" a lamb?

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. (Rev 13:11)

In what way does it appear to be Christian?

Is that the extent of it? Thanks for the detailed burden of proof.

The word like in this verse....

11 ¶And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Is Strong's # 3664 homoiosand and it means...

like, similar, resembling
like: i.e. resembling
like: i.e. corresponding to a thing

This is the counterfeit religion of Islam. It has a false God, A false prophet, a false returning Messiah, a false book. They say Allah is the same God as the Christian God. They have a Muslim Jesus who will return and be the Mahdi's subordinate. .

The two horns represent the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. The dragon is Lucifer and his hordes and represents this...

The word 'Halal' in Hebrew has the same meaning in Arabic. Hilal


And it means....
Web definition
Hilāl (هلال) is an Arabic word that means "crescent" or "new moon." It's an Islamic symbol!

Halal and Hilal means... Lucifer... aka Satan... aka the devil... and in Christian literature actually means... The Morning Star and Crescent Moon. We put crosses on top of Churches. Islam has a star and crescent moon. Allah is also known as a moon god in Arabic mythology!

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1966

Another interesting coincidence is according to Muslim scholars there are 6666 verses in the Koran.

Does God say he will raise up the Romans in the last days?

OR THE BABYLONIANS....
THIS PASSAGE HAS ISLAMIC TERRORISM, DEMOGRAPHICS, AND WORLD DOMINATION WRITTEN ALL OVER IT. IT'S THE MOST ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF ISLAM IN THE BIBLE.


Habakkuk 1:5 ¶Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs. (DEMOGRAPHICS)

7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat. (possibly a reference to the four horsemen who are all terrorist. This is what's coming. Worldwide terror attacks.)
9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand. (terrorism; bowing to Allah 5 times a day)


Sup up means to do so as a horde or an assembly.
Islam is the only religion where it's devout followers sup their face up to the east even 5 times a day. The east wind is always associated with evil destructive wind.

 

[Purity]

Shalom, Purity.


And, just what is THAT supposed to mean?! I know that it contributes nothing to the meaning of the beast (wild animal), or Yochanan would have mentioned it. I suppose that YOU know the mind of God on this better than I?

Lets take the answer to my question as no.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Lets take the answer to my question as no.

Therefore, the answer to my question is also no, right?

 

[Purity]

The two horns represent the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. The dragon represents this...

The word 'Halal' in Hebrew has the same meaning in Arabic. Hilal

Thanks for that.

And what of the other sects of Islam?

Sufis?
Ibadi Muslims?
Quranist Muslims?

And so on?

No the horns are a symbol of power and authority - much to Retro's delight.

So the reference "like a lamb" Do you suggest Islam is to appear Christian?

Purity

Shalom, Purity.


Therefore, the answer to my question is also no, right?

You appear to be adamant it meant nothing at all - something in Gods Word without meaning?

I have never heard of such a claim!

To your question the answer would be yes! as we shall see.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

...

You appear to be adamant it meant nothing at all - something in Gods Word without meaning?

I have never heard of such a claim!

To your question the answer would be yes! as we shall see.

I didn't say that the horns had no meaning; I said that they were part of the description of the beast being described that DOES have meaning! Why should additional meanings be added when most Christians have absolutely NO CLUE as to how the Scriptures should even be understood?!

Most have some Gentile-slanted view of the Scriptures that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the original intent of those Scriptures! They conveniently FORGET (or at least NEGLECT) the Old Testament prophecies and have NEVER even read them straight through for the simple understanding of what the author of that prophecy - the prophet chosen by God to deliver His message, typically to the children of Isra'el - was trying to convey! I doubt whether many right here on this forum have done so!

So why go hunting for some "deeper meaning" when one hasn't even learned the SIMPLE TRUTHS of that passage?

It's like taking something like ... oh, the Gettysburg Address, for instance, and saying things like a "score" is a sheet of music and therefore we're talking about the way that people sing four times down through the seven years! Ridiculous, right? SAME THING when you get to the Scriptures and say that they mean some HIDEOUSLY TWISTED teaching of horse doodoo because they contain some arbitrarily chosen "supernal words!"

That's all I'm saying. READ the Scriptures! Take FROM them what the authors wanted the readers to know! Quit trying to READ INTO the Scriptures things are AREN'T THERE!

 

[Purity]

Shalom, Purity.


I didn't say that the horns had no meaning; I said that they were part of the description of the beast being described that DOES have meaning! Why should additional meanings be added when most Christians have absolutely NO CLUE as to how the Scriptures should even be understood?!

Most have some Gentile-slanted view of the Scriptures that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the original intent of those Scriptures! They conveniently FORGET (or at least NEGLECT) the Old Testament prophecies and have NEVER even read them straight through for the simple understanding of what the author of that prophecy - the prophet chosen by God to deliver His message, typically to the children of Isra'el - was trying to convey! I doubt whether many right here on this forum have done so!

So why go hunting for some "deeper meaning" when one hasn't even learned the SIMPLE TRUTHS of that passage?

It's like taking something like ... oh, the Gettysburg Address, for instance, and saying things like a "score" is a sheet of music and therefore we're talking about the way that people sing four times down through the seven years! Ridiculous, right? SAME THING when you get to the Scriptures and say that they mean some HIDEOUSLY TWISTED teaching of horse doodoo because they contain some arbitrarily chosen "supernal words!"

That's all I'm saying. READ the Scriptures! Take FROM them what the authors wanted the readers to know! Quit trying to READ INTO the Scriptures things are AREN'T THERE!

Ok Retro.

What does the Bible teach concerning the horns?

make its horns on its four corners; Ex 27:2 7161

its horns shall be of one piece Ex 27:2 7161

horns of the altar with your finger; Ex 29:12 7161

horns shall be of one piece with it. Ex 30:2 7161

its sides all around, and its horns; Ex 30:3 7161

atonement on its horns once a year; Ex 30:10 7161

its horns were of one piece with it. Ex 37:25 7161

its sides all around, and its horns; Ex 37:26 7161

He made its horns on its four corners, Ex 38:2 7161

its horns being of one piece with it, Ex 38:2 7161

blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant Lv 4:7 7161

some of the blood on the horns of the altar Lv 4:18 7161

and put it on the horns of the altar Lv 4:25 7161

on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; Lv 4:30 7161

on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, Lv 4:34 7161

it around on the horns of the altar, Lv 8:15 7161

put some on the horns of the altar, Lv 9:9 7161

the horns of the altar on all sides. Lv 16:18 7161

them like the horns of the wild ox. Nu 23:22 8443

for him like the horns of the wild ox. Nu 24:8 8443

horns are the horns of the wild ox; Dt 33:17 7161

horns are the horns of the wild ox; Dt 33:17 7161

trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark; Jos 6:4 3104

trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark Jos 6:6 3104

carrying the seven trumpets of rams’ horns Jos 6:8 3104

carrying the seven trumpets of rams’ horns Jos 6:13 3104

took hold of the horns of the altar. 1Ki 1:50 7161

taken hold of the horns of the altar, 1Ki 1:51 7161

took hold of the horns of the altar. 1Ki 2:28 7161

son of Chenaanah made horns of iron 1Ki 22:11 7161

with trumpets and with horns. 2Ch 15:14 7782

son of Chenaanah made horns of iron 2Ch 18:10 7161

From the horns of the wild oxen Ps 22:21 7161

Or a young bull with horns and hoofs. Ps 69:31 7161

horns of the wicked He will cut off, Ps 75:10 7161

horns of the righteous will be lifted up. Ps 75:10 7161

with cords to the horns of the altar. Ps 118:27 7161

And on the horns of their altars, Jer 17:1 7161

at all the weak with your horns until Ezk 34:21 7161

shall extend upwards four horns. Ezk 43:15 7161

blood and put it on its four horns Ezk 43:20 7161

were before it, and it had ten horns. Da 7:7 7162

“While I was contemplating the horns, Da 7:8 7162

and three of the first horns were Da 7:8 7162

the ten horns that were on its head Da 7:20 7162

‘As for the ten horns, out of this Da 7:24 7162

a ram which had two horns was standing Da 8:3 7161

Now the two horns were long, but one Da 8:3 7161

up to the ram that had the two horns, Da 8:6 7161

the ram and shattered his two horns, Da 8:7 7161

there came up four conspicuous horns Da 8:8

ram which you saw with the two horns Da 8:20 7161

“The broken horn and the four horns Da 8:22

horns of the altar will be cut off Am 3:14 7161

and behold, there were four horns. Zch 1:18 7161

the horns which have scattered Judah, Zch 1:19 7161

the horns which have scattered Judah so Zch 1:21 7161

to throw down the horns of the nations Zch 1:21 7161

the nations who have lifted up their horns Zch 1:21 7161

having seven horns and seven eyes, Rv 5:6 2768

from the four horns of the golden altar Rv 9:13 2768

having seven heads and ten horns, Rv 12:3 2768

sea, having ten horns and seven heads, Rv 13:1 2768

and on his horns were ten diadems, Rv 13:1 2768

and he had two horns like a lamb and Rv 13:11 2768

having seven heads and ten horns. Rv 17:3 2768

has the seven heads and the ten horns. Rv 17:7 2768

ten horns which you saw are ten kings who Rv 17:12 2768

“And the ten horns which you saw, and Rv 17:16 2768

When a horn is presented on a beast it is always representing the creatures power and authority

So are we surprised in the very next verse....

Rev 13:12?

Can we agree the horns on this beast (empire) has twofold authority - 1. Imperial 2. Ecclesiastical

Purity

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Sure. Let's start with a few basic facts:

Starting in the Tanakh (the OT), the Hebrew word is qeren and it means an a horn of keratin or bone or ivory that grows out from the skull of certain animals. It's very basic.


OT:7160 qaran (kaw-ran'); a primitive root; to push or gore; used only as denominative from OT:7161, to shoot out horns; figuratively, rays:
KJV - have horns, shine.

OT:7161 qeren (keh'-ren); from OT:7160; a horn (as projecting); by implication, a flask, cornet; by resembl. an elephant's tooth (i.e. ivory), a corner (of the altar), a peak (of a mountain), a ray (of light); figuratively, power:
KJV - X hill, horn.

OT:7162 qeren (Aramaic) (keh'-ren); corresponding to OT:7161; a horn (literally or for sound):
KJV - horn, cornet.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, 7160 is the verb form; 7161 is the Hebrew noun form; and 7162 is the Aramaic noun form of the word. The term focuses on the conical shape of the horn as it tapers to its point. That's why the term MAY also be used for a mountain PEAK, or the RAY of light emitting from the skin of Moshe (which is why Michelangelo's "Moses" is sculptured with horns).


Isaiah 5:1
1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill (Hebrew: qeren):
KJV


Exodus 34:29-35
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone (Hebrew: qaran) while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone (Hebrew: qaran); and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone (Hebrew: qaran): and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
KJV

Notice that the word qeren can also refer to a corner, as coming to a point. The Tabernacle furniture - the Ark of the Covenant, the Table of Showbread, the Altar of Incense, and the Brazen Altar - had such corners. Some artists' concept drawings and paintings will picture actual horns shaped like those of an ox protruding from the furniture, but that's not really necessary. The corner itself comes to a point, even if the angle is 90 degrees.

Some animals have been known to gore people, and therefore there are laws about what to do when the owner of an ox, for instance, doesn't do what's necessary to keep the public protected from an animal known to push at people, attempting to gore them. If someone is injured or killed by such an animal, Moshe listed rules that the children of Isra'el were to follow:


Exodus 21:28-32
28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.
31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.
32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
KJV

Animal horns had uses for which they were adapted. They could be hollowed out from point to base and made into a musical instrument commonly known as a trumpet or a cornet without valves. Such an instrument would be closer to the bugle, and as a bugle, it was used for military purposes as well as celebrations and signals. The instrument is called a "shofar" in Hebrew:


OT:7782 showphar (sho-far'); or shophar (sho-far'); from OT:8231 in the original sense of incising; a cornet (as giving a clear sound) or curved horn:
KJV - cornet, trumpet.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

These instruments are still made and sold in Isra'el today. (I have both a ram's horn shofar and a kudu antelope's horn shofar and can play them both.) This is probably the instrument being blown in the seven Trumpet judgments. They're effectively AIR RAID SIRENS warning of the impending disasters!

They could be partly hollowed out to make receptacles for liquids such as the holy Anointing Oil described in Exodus 30:22-33:


Exodus 30:22-33
22 Moreover the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty shekels,
24 And of cassia five hundred shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of oil olive an hin:
25 And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.
26 And thou shalt anoint the tabernacle of the congregation therewith, and the ark of the testimony,
27 And the table and all his vessels, and the candlestick and his vessels, and the altar of incense,
28 And the altar of burnt offering with all his vessels, and the laver and his foot.
29 And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.
30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
31 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This shall be an holy anointing oil unto me throughout your generations.
32 Upon man's flesh shall it not be poured, neither shall ye make any other like it, after the composition of it: it is holy, and it shall be holy unto you.
33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger, shall even be cut off from his people.
KJV

So, the furniture, too, was anointed, and we read later that the blood was applied to the HORNS (Hebrew: kereniym) or corners of the altar.

Kings of Isra'el, like the cohaniym (priests), were so anointed as God instructed:



1 Samuel 15:1
1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
KJV

1 Samuel 16:11-13
11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
13 Then Samuel took the horn (Hebrew: qeren) of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
KJV

1 Kings 1:33-35
33 The king also said unto them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon:
34 And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon.
35 Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah.
KJV

And, this is VERY IMPORTANT because Yeshua`, the Son of David, was within the kings' lineage! That's what Matthew's lineage in Matthew 1 is all about! It verifies that He is INDEED the LORD'S Anointed - the Mashiach in Hebrew or MESSIAH or Christos in Greek or CHRIST - to be Melekh or King! Through His adopted father, Yosef (Joseph), he was a descendent of David, Smo (Solomon), Rechav`am (Rehoboam) and of all the royal lineage of Y'hudah (Judah)! Thus, the following prophecy came into effect:

Therefore, Yeshua` was recognized to be "born King of the Jews!" The Magi (wise men) offered Him gifts that contained the KEY ELEMENT of the Holy Anointing Oil, frankincense! Furthermore, the following prophecy is about Him:


2 Samuel 7:1-17
1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.
3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV


Psalm 89:3-4, 17-37
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
...
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn (Hebrew: qeren) shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn (Hebrew: qeren) be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV


And what was said at His baptism?


Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:9-11
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Luke 3:21-22
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV

Coincidence? HARDLY! One doesn't need to go crazy with "this means that." JUST LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE! Yeshua` is the Messiah, the Anointed, of God to be King of Y'hudah and of Isra'el and of the whole world as the Melekh Malakhiym (King of Kings), a title that Nebuchadnezzar had meaning "World Emperor!"

 

[Purity]

Shalom, Purity.

Sure. Let's start with a few basic facts:

Starting in the Tanakh (the OT), the Hebrew word is qeren and it means an a horn of keratin or bone or ivory that grows out from the skull of certain animals. It's very basic.

Greetings Retro,

I take no issue with what you have written thank you.

I was hoping you would speak to the horn as an allegory?

Take your pick:

A little horn came up and uprooted three horns (Dan. 7:8); the other horn before which three horns fell (Dan. 7:20); a small horn which grew large (Dan. 8:9); four horns in place of the one broken (Dan. 8:8; Dan. 8:22); four horns which scattered Israel and Judah (Zech. 1:18–19); these are the horns which have scattered Judah (Zech. 1:21); these are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem (Zech. 1:19); a he-goat with a horn between its eyes (Dan. 8:5); a ram with two horns (Dan. 8:3); the beast had two horns like a lamb (Rev. 13:11); a beast with ten horns (Dan. 7:7; Dan. 7:20); as for the ten horns, ten kings will arise (Dan. 7:24); the horn waged war against the saints (Dan. 7:21); the horn is the first king (Dan. 8:21); the ram with two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia (Dan. 8:20); a beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 12:3; Rev. 13:1; Rev. 17:3; Rev. 17:7); the ten horns you saw are ten kings (Rev. 17:12); the ten horns you saw (Rev. 17:16); a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes (Rev. 5:6).

Provide an understanding of how God uses the horn in prophecy please.

Purity

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Greetings Retro,

I take no issue with what you have written thank you.

I was hoping you would speak to the horn as an allegory?

Take your pick:

A little horn came up and uprooted three horns (Dan. 7:8); the other horn before which three horns fell (Dan. 7:20); a small horn which grew large (Dan. 8:9); four horns in place of the one broken (Dan. 8:8; Dan. 8:22); four horns which scattered Israel and Judah (Zech. 1:18–19); these are the horns which have scattered Judah (Zech. 1:21); these are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem (Zech. 1:19); a he-goat with a horn between its eyes (Dan. 8:5); a ram with two horns (Dan. 8:3); the beast had two horns like a lamb (Rev. 13:11); a beast with ten horns (Dan. 7:7; Dan. 7:20); as for the ten horns, ten kings will arise (Dan. 7:24); the horn waged war against the saints (Dan. 7:21); the horn is the first king (Dan. 8:21); the ram with two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia (Dan. 8:20); a beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 12:3; Rev. 13:1; Rev. 17:3; Rev. 17:7); the ten horns you saw are ten kings (Rev. 17:12); the ten horns you saw (Rev. 17:16); a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes (Rev. 5:6).

Provide an understanding of how God uses the horn in prophecy please.

Purity

I do not believe in the allegorical interpretation of the Bible. I believe in the grammatical-historical interpretation of the Bible. As such, ONLY in those passages where a "horn" is CLEARLY presented as an allegory will I take the "horn" to be an allegory, and I don't go looking for allegories upon allegories to compound the issue! Since most, normal, animal horns do NOT have a "mouth speaking blasphemies," that is a case where the "horn" is clearly an allegory. HOWEVER, it is an allegory FOR THAT CONTEXT! Anywhere else in the Scriptures it NO LONGER APPLIES! ONLY in the case where some reference is made to the original passage containing that allegory would the allegory also apply to the new passage.

CLEARLY in Revelation 17:12, for instance, the equivalency is STATED, but I didn't need to go to any other passage for that one, and it is the CONTEXT of the passage that will tell you what is allegorical and how it is being applied.

However, mixing allegories is like mixing metaphors.

One such example of mixed metaphors is: "Burn your bridges when you come to them." It's a mixing of "Don't burn your bridges" and "Let's cross that bridge when we come to it." Another is "It's our turn at bat; so, let's score a touchdown for the team!" What are we playing, baseball or football? (For more on mixing metaphors, one can check out http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/mixed-metaphors?page=all.)

Mixing allegories, like mixing metaphors, is confusion! Unless BOTH metaphors (or allegories) are VERY WELL KNOWN by ALL parties introduced to the mixing, it raises more questions than it answers! Only when a connection to another passage is stated clearly by the author of the book, is such a connection to be made. No such connection without the author's encouragement to make such a connection should be FORCED UPON THE PASSAGE!

It may be a fun activity and have interesting results, but it should NOT be considered as a legitimate practice nor as the author's intention! Furthermore, what guarantee does anyone have that someone else will arrive at the same conclusions that you made? And, if they differ, how does one determine who's right and who's wrong? By who has the most clout? And, who determines THAT?!

We need a DEFINITIVE word from the Scriptures! The Scriptures teach ABSOLUTES that we can count on being right! We don't need RELATIVE OPINIONS that are a dime a dozen! EVERYBODY has opinions, and that gives rise to such statements as "Ask two rabbis a question and you'll get three opinions!"

 

[Purity]

Shalom, Purity.
I do not believe in the allegorical interpretation of the Bible. I believe in the grammatical-historical interpretation of the Bible. As such, ONLY in those passages where a "horn" is CLEARLY presented as an allegory will I take the "horn" to be an allegory,

Can we test this for your edification?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Can we test this for your edification?

Sure! Just look at the first occurrence of the word "qeren" meaning "horn":


Genesis 22:1-14
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you,
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
KJV

Why would we even THINK there was an allegory here? The ram that Avraham used for his sacrifice was LITERALLY caught by his horns in a bramble of undergrowth! It's that simple. Unless the Scriptures added the fact that these horns were to be symbolic of something else, there's NO SENSE in applying some allegorical significance to them! In fact, it would be usurping the authority of God's Word to do so! You are effectively saying that both the human author, Moshe or Moses, and the Divine Author, God Himself, were saying things that they never even hinted that they said! Can you see the DANGER - the RISK that one is taking - in doing so?!

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Thanks for that.

And what of the other sects of Islam?
Sufis?
Ibadi Muslims?
Quranist Muslims?
And so on?
No the horns are a symbol of power and authority - much to Retro's delight.
So the reference "like a lamb" Do you suggest Islam is to appear Christian?

Most, and maybe all, sects in Islam developed from the Sunni and Shia sects, and most Muslims are of two denominations, Sunni (75–90%),[7] or Shia (10–20%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
All the other sects are miniscule in numbers compared to Sunni and shia.

Shia Islam encompasses most Muslims who are not counted among the Sunni. The division between Sunni and Shi'a, dates to the death of the Prophet Muhammad when his followers were faced with the decision of who would be his successor as the leader of Islam. Shi'ites are those who followed Ali, the closest relative of Muhammad, as Muhammad's successor. Today there are approximately 120 million Shi'ite Muslims in the world.

A study conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2010 and released January 2011[7] found that there are 1.62 billion Muslims around the world, and it is estimated that the Sunni population is between 75% and 90%.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam

If the horns aren't figurative of the two major sects of Islam then there are other possibilities. The two horns could also be figurative of two end-time empires. The king of the north and the king of the south...who could be the Ezekiel 38-39 alliance and the Psalm 83 alliance.

But I tend to believe the lamb and it's horns are represented in the religion of Islam...Babylon the Great!