Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[IndianaRob]

These are the occupants of the kingdom of heaven when Christ comes on the day of the Lord.They are cast out of the kingdom for their disbelief.They also worship the beast and it's image and take it's mark.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So who are the children that are cast out of the kingdom when Jesus comes again? And what kingdom are they being cast out of?

 

[IndianaRob]

You believe Jesus was in bondage because he was in Jerusalem,?

Abraham,Isaac,Jacob and David were all.in bondage?

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

 

[tailgator]

So who are the children that are cast out of the kingdom when Jesus comes again? And what kingdom are they being cast out of?

They are being cast out of the kingdom of heaven.
It the land promised to Abraham ,Issac and Jacob for an everlasting possession.

Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[IndianaRob]

They are being cast out of the kingdom of heaven.
It the land promised to Abraham ,Issac and Jacob for an everlasting possession.

Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you’re saying.

 

[tailgator]

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Christ was in Jerusalem but was not a child of Agar.

Someone can live in Jerusalem and not be a child of Agar . They could be a child of Sarah like Isaac.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes ,a specific area of land that is promised to them who belong to Christ.Abraham will live there .That is where the kingdom is.


Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise




The nations outside of the kingdom will try to take it but they will all be destroyed.Fire will come down from heaven from God and consume them.

It seems that Peter had a different understanding than you do of what we, those who belong to Christ, should be looking for in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[tailgator]

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you’re saying.

So who are the children that are cast out of the kingdom when Jesus comes again? And what kingdom are they being cast out of?

The children being cast out of the kingdom are the occupants of the kingdom who reject Christ The kingdom they are being cast out of isl the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


I expect most of them will be consumed.


Mathew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


They are being removed from Jesus's kingdom.
"Out of his kingdom".

Do you understand Jesus now?

 

[tailgator]

It seems that Peter had a different understanding than you do of what we, those who belong to Christ, should be looking for in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The new heavens and new earth comes after Gog and the nations have come against Christs kingdom and is destroyed.. That takes place 1000 years after Christ comes and receives the kingdom.Its better understood to keep it all in context.Here it is.



Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[rwb]

Here's a question or two for Amils if they want to take it on.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Amils insist this happened 2000 years ago. The point I will be attempting to make is one pertaining to whether there is a contradiction in their view or not. And I will attempt to make that point by adding the following.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

David,

1. What was the occasion that caused the devil's great wrath?

2. Isn't his great wrath because he could not devour the Christ-child as soon as He was born?

3. Wasn't attempting to devour Christ at birth the reason behind the war in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels that caused him to be cast down from heaven and to the earth?

4. When is the short time the devil knows he has?

Being cast DOWN from heaven is not the same thing as being cast OUT of people possessed by evil devils. The great dragon that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan was cast DOWN from heaven when Christ was born.

But Satan would not be cast OUT of those possessed by devils and demons until Christ became a man and declared Himself to be fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy: Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV) The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

After being tempted forty days in the wilderness: Luke 4:16-19 (KJV) And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:28-30 (KJV) And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

After this Jesus went about casting out devils and demons. Not only do the devils and demons know Christ is the same Son of God that could not be devoured when He was born, they also spoke as though they knew their time was short.

Matthew 8:28-29 (KJV) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luke 8:28-30 (KJV) When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Up to this point in Jesus's earthly ministry the devils and demons whose authority came from the King of the bottomless pit had freedom to torment, kill and destroy without restraint. They knew since the Man child was not devoured at birth their time for unrestrained evil was short. Satan could not prevent Christ from becoming a man. A man he knew would give His life to make atonement for sin, and defeat death by resurrecting to life again. This is how Satan is BOUND, not cast DOWN to earth, or cast OUT of people, but BOUND for this time given mankind whereby they must be saved, a thousand years. Not one thousand years, but symbolically a thousand years of time between the first advent of Christ and the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

Nothing in this passage about Satan being cast DOWN from heaven to the earth, and not being cast OUT of people. Simply bound in a pit with a great chain, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more till this time, the thousand years should be fulfilled. Then his time won't be short, but a "little season", after this symbolic period of time should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:1-3 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Over the last eight or so hours, there have been around 100 posts posted to this thread which have all missed the mark because of the over Christ centred spiritualisation of this parable. The same can be shown to have happened with the general understanding of the Parable of the Talents.

Goodbye.

 

[face2face]

Disappointing.
J.

You admitted Paul was not seeking to be unclothed and proceeded to justify you false teaching...it should be me saying dissapointing J.

You know my position is right

F2F

 

[Timtofly]

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind.

Those left behind? Really? Left behind when?

Can you explain to me, how that, without any warning, over 8 billion people are all transferred to the Mount of Megiddo while some are taken somewhere else to have some left behind? Then billions are killed at this single battle of Armageddon?


What is the literal part; that all of humanity is gathered in one spot? Or is that just symbolic and something else you forgot to include is literal?

If you have some people literally left behind, at what point in this explanation other than this gathering, were they left behind?

You seem to imply that everyone on earth was taken away, except for a few tourist who happened to be visiting the valley of Megiddo that day, and those tourists were left behind, and all immediately killed.

You cannot literally have people left behind at this point in time, without removing some at an earlier point in time.

You cannot use those deceived by Satan all travel to mount Megiddo, if you also state they only attack their neighbors in local areas. How can you have all gathered at one place at the same time they are left behind, scattered across the earth?

We know that literally every last human is gathered at Armageddon:

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

God gathered all, literally every last human, to Armageddon.

So how can there be literal stragglers all over the earth at the sane time all are supposed to be on this one last battlefield:

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth:"

Don't you agree all those left behind were all in one location?

How can this be the same as your interpretation of this verse:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The reward mentioned ruling over people was given to those on white horses waiting for those at Armageddon to be killed. They don't rule over dead people. They rule over earth after the earth is made new, after Armageddon is over. Many are wrong stating they reign over the dead. But they are not wrong in their reigning, just about those who they are reigning over. Do you think that every last person on a white horse got the exact same reward? That is hardly practical or ideal. Some on those white horses will have been awarded leadership authority. Some will have no rewards at all. Some will be in the middle with various awards.

Seems like all those on white horses had already been judged and knew what they were to do. They were just waiting until after Armageddon to start their life on the earth. They were not instantly judged the second before Armageddon. They had to have been removed and judged prior to Armageddon.

Neither were they the camp of saints as they came from heaven on white horses, not on earth in a camp somewhere. The camp of saints were those same people a thousand years later. The same horses, unless you don't think horses are literal? Armageddon was not an army surrounding the camp of the saints. Armageddon are those on white horses from heaven, surrounding the battlefield of all humanity in one location, who were about to be killed, and their flesh eaten by birds. No one was consumed by fire. Some were tossed into the LOF. Some of those on white horses would be the camp of saints surrounded by deceived humans a thousand years later.

 

[Timtofly]

Correct-this has NOTHING to do with 1948 so who are the modern Yehudi?
Reason why I ask is that the Jewish genealogies during the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus in 70 A.D were destroyed.

The information regarding the loss of Jewish genealogies during the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus in 70 A.D. is derived from various historical accounts, including Jewish and Roman sources, though no single ancient text explicitly states that all genealogies were destroyed. The idea is based on a few key historical and scholarly insights:

Josephus – A Jewish historian who lived during the time of the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem, recorded the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple. While Josephus doesn’t specifically mention the destruction of genealogical records, his works such as The Jewish War and Antiquities of the Jews provide detailed accounts of the destruction of the city and the Temple, which included the loss of religious and cultural records.

The Temple's Central Role – The Temple in Jerusalem was not only a place of worship but also a repository for important records. These included genealogical records used for determining tribal affiliations, especially for the Levitical priesthood. With the destruction of the Temple, it is assumed that such records were lost along with other important cultural artifacts.

Rabbinic Tradition – Jewish rabbinic sources such as the Talmud also indirectly acknowledge that genealogical purity became problematic after the destruction of the Temple. For example, Mishnah Kiddushin 4:1 indicates that genealogical records were maintained prior to the Temple’s destruction but became more difficult to verify afterward.

Modern Scholarship – Historians and scholars today infer that with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, it is likely that the genealogical records were destroyed along with other important documents, making it difficult for Jews in later centuries to definitively trace their ancestry to specific tribes, especially the Levites and priests (Kohanim).

These sources provide a historical and contextual basis for the belief that the genealogical records were likely lost when the Temple was destroyed, affecting Jewish religious and tribal identity in the years that followed.

Maybe you have more verifiable sources?
J.

How can one say "all" was destroyed? All of what? The post Babylonian captivity? How could there be records in Jerusalem for the millions of Israelites dispersed in 720BC several centuries prior to the Babylonian captivity?

If that is the case, genealogical impurities were already there way before Jesus was born.

The 70AD event seems like a smoke screen argument. God knows who is who, even if humans don't, or cannot know.

 

[Timtofly]

Would you agree that those under the altar at the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-11 are asking how long till Jerusalem stops killing the prophets?

Are you asking that question? Should you be asking that question? How can you be redeemed, but not one of those under the alter?

 

[Timtofly]

It can't get any clearer than this, Matthew 16:27 gives us the timing of when verse 28 is meaning, in regards to seeing the Son of man coming in His kingdom. How could I possibly be wrong here if these other Scriptures I submitted, Revelation 22:12 and Matthew 25:31, prove that I am right?

And where exactly are these verses in relationship to all the other events in Revelation:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

In the first century?

Before Revelation 19?

Revelation 19?

Revelation 20?

Revelation 21?

 

[David in NJ]

The first thing to note is what verse 11 does not say.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

This verse does not say the kingdom of God will never appear. It just won't immediately appear like they were assuming it should and the very next verse tells us the reasons why.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, the kingdom can't immediately appear if Jesus has to go away first, then receive a kingdom for Himself, then return.

Let's fast forward to the following for a moment.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It is undeniable, this is when the kingdom literally appears. Anyone that would argue otherwise are arguing nonsense, as if there will never be a kingdom one can literally behold with their own eyes once Jesus returns. Of course there will be. Now that that's out of the way, let's look at verse 13 next.

Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

To understand this part is simple. This is meaning from the time of His ascension through His return in the end of this age. That is when He comes, thus returns. In the meantime He is bodily in heaven. I don't want to get into the purpose of the 10 pounds since everyone can draw their own conclusions about that. What I do want to focus on though, thus will be the main focus of the OP, which I feel is relevant per this endless Premil vs. Amil debate is how Jesus rewards these when He returns that He entrusted with this 10 pounds. I'll get to that later. First let's look at verse 14 next.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Who should we assume His citizens are meaning here? Because whoever they are meaning, it is not until Jesus returns that they are dealt with.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This can't possibly be meaning the unbelieving Jews that were destroyed in 70 AD. Verse 27 is not meaning 70 AD, it is meaning after He has bodily returned, thus after He has stepped foot back on this planet, the same planet some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns. He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions. There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

BTW, all of these things are relevant if there is going to be a 1000 year era of time following Christ's return. Can't have an era of time like that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns. Thus the reason I brought some of those things up, that it doesn't make sense that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns when there has to be an era of time to still fulfill after Christ has returned.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

a.) The 'nobleman' is CHRIST,
b.) the far away country is earth and it's inhabitants,
c.) the kingdom he received unto Himself is ALL whom the FATHER calls unto Christ
d.) and to RETURN = the Second Coming

 

[Timtofly]

How could someone open a seal.of a book that has not been written?

If I had a book ,and I was opening the fifth seal.of that book.It was obviously written before I opened it.

Scripture says after the fifth seal is opened ,they are given white robes and told they must rest a little season till their fellow servants are killed.

Their fellow servants are killed before the 6th seal is opened when Christ comes and seals them all in their foreheads. This takes place during the time of Gods wrath in revelation 6.

Ezekiel ,9
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

How can you understand the book of Revelation is not the book with the 7 Seals, but you say the Trumpets written about later (a part of Revelation being written down by John) are in the 7th Seal?


The 7 Seals are dealing with the church directly as God's judgment on the church like the Trumpets are the Judgments regarding Israel, and the Thunders are Judgments regarding the Gentile nations not the church, nor Israel.

The book with the 7 Seals is the book only the Lamb was found worthy to open, because it is the Lamb's book of Life with every one's name in it from Adam to the last human born on earth prior to the Millennium.

The Atonement Covenant of the Cross covered all of Adam's offspring. The OT Covenant did not cover sin. It was just a type of the physical act of the Cross.

The first 4 Seals are tribulation the church goes through. The 5th Seal is the rapture and the 6th is the Second Coming. When the 7th Seal is opened, that means names will start being removed starting with the sheep and goat judgment during the Trumpets. The sheep are those of Israel redeemed. The goats are those of Israel removed from the Lamb's book of life and physically tossed alive into the LOF.

The church is sealed and glorified before the book is unsealed by the 7th Seal. The 144k are of Israel sealed before the sheep and goat judgment. They are not the sheep. The sheep are gathered after the 7th Seal is opened. The time of Jacob's trouble called the GT is during the first 6 Trumpets.

Those gathered after the 7th Seal is opened are who the church are waiting for from the 5th Seal until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. No human is killed in the 6th Seal. They all have to stand in judgment or left for the winepress of God's wrath.

 

[tailgator]

How can you understand the book of Revelation is not the book with the 7 Seals, but you say the Trumpets written about later (a part of Revelation being written down by John) are in the 7th Seal?


The 7 Seals are dealing with the church directly as God's judgment on the church like the Trumpets are the Judgments regarding Israel, and the Thunders are Judgments regarding the Gentile nations not the church, nor Israel.

The book with the 7 Seals is the book only the Lamb was found worthy to open, because it is the Lamb's book of Life with every one's name in it from Adam to the last human born on earth prior to the Millennium.

The Atonement Covenant of the Cross covered all of Adam's offspring. The OT Covenant did not cover sin. It was just a type of the physical act of the Cross.

The first 4 Seals are tribulation the church goes through. The 5th Seal is the rapture and the 6th is the Second Coming. When the 7th Seal is opened, that means names will start being removed starting with the sheep and goat judgment during the Trumpets. The sheep are those of Israel redeemed. The goats are those of Israel removed from the Lamb's book of life and physically tossed alive into the LOF.

The church is sealed and glorified before the book is unsealed by the 7th Seal. The 144k are of Israel sealed before the sheep and goat judgment. They are not the sheep. The sheep are gathered after the 7th Seal is opened. The time of Jacob's trouble called the GT is during the first 6 Trumpets.

Those gathered after the 7th Seal is opened are who the church are waiting for from the 5th Seal until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. No human is killed in the 6th Seal. They all have to stand in judgment or left for the winepress of God's wrath.

I didn't say that.
I said a book would have to be written before someone could break a seal on that book.

It's a very simple concept.

 

[Timtofly]

The end result for the nation of Israel is explained here.

Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

That happened in 720BC. Did Jesus come then and turned things around?

Why are you stuck in the future of 70AD, from the point of view of 720BC?

The Preterists of the first century BC would not understand you, as you would be a futurist to them. Israel has never been restored to this day, over 2700 years later.

How can you say Jesus restored Israel at all, then? Israel was not restored by Jesus.

Jesus did come 750 years later, but that would contradict your own point. You claim Jesus could not come 750 years later, because Israel is still waiting, after 2700 years, and will continue to wait for eternity, according to you.

Amos is still true and God has not passed by them to this day. Do you think that the Israel of Amos' day will never stand in a Judgment ever in the future? Not even the GWT Judgment? Seems to me, God cannot even pass by Israel until Israel is restored. As long as there is no Israel, Amos will still be true.

If you claim there is an Israel, according to God's promise, He is no where near that Israel, according to those verses.

There cannot even be a New Jerusalem at this point. Because Israel is still vacant according to you, and there are people who still think Israel exists. God does not have to visit this creation ever again, because all authority is in Jesus Christ, until Jesus returns creation back to God. God will definitely be present on the next created earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Basically it is a purging out of the rebels and transgressors within the NT church the same way the following passage below is or was. If you can picture in your mind what verse 38 might look like, apply that same picture to that of the sheep and goats judgment, that it is a purging out of the rebels and transgressors in the NT church while Jesus was away during His ascension.

Matthew 25 is not about the NT church. This chapter is about Israel and the state Israel is in at the Second Coming. These are not dead people. These are living people, as in, if the Second Coming happened next week, they are alive on earth this minute, Israel.

The wise virgins are those of Israel who are part of the NT church, but not all of the NT church are of Israel. The foolish virgins are those of Israel who are not part of the NT church, as they failed to see the importance of having oil.

There is no such thing as saying some NT church members are not NT church members. Either one is or one is not. Now many call themselves NT church members, but they are not. So calling one's self part of the NT church is not the same as your NOSAS. Either you have the second birth or you don't. There is no one who had the second birth and then lost it.

Having the second birth is not the same as being grafted in analogy. Paul wrote:

"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

How can you maintain God's goodness for God to you? God did not graft you in against your will. Nor can God cut you off if you willed it. The natural branches were cut off from unbelief, by being disobedient to the Law. You are not grafted in by having obedience to the Law. You are grafted in via the free gift of Salvation. That is all you did is accept the gift. How can you ever have enough faith, and what work did you do to maintain that faith? Many cannot accept the gift nor the second birth, because they are doing all they can to work for it. Jesus even explained how that works in sowing the seed. Not all the seed led to the second birth.

Paul never said a wild branch would be cut off for lack of faith. If that is the point, then the branch was never grafted in to begin with. The wild branches do not come through the Law, nor good works. The second birth is free to all. Get that? See the word free? No where in the anology does it say a branch is cut off because of not doing enough good works. The natural branches stopped obeying the Law in their unbelief, which caused the Covenant agreement to fall apart. It was not because they could keep the Law or break the Law. It was because they thought the Law was no longer for them, and they forsook God for other avenues of faith. No man could keep the Law, that is why the works of the Law were in place. Under the Law, the works showed they had faith. Under the second birth faith shows that one has good works. Under the second birth it is God working through you. Under the Law, one was working for God, as part of a Covenant.


Under the Law one was born to works and lived by faith doing those works. Under the NT, one receives the gift freely and God produces works and results through our faith, and obedience to Him.

The Second Coming is the end of the NT church and the end of branches period. No more natural branches nor wild branches. But no going back to the OT either. There will be no sin, nor Adam's transgression within creation. The curse will be lifted, and the former things will not even be remembered. No one will remember either the OT Covenant nor the need for the NT Covenant.

All will be born with redemption from conception, so to speak. They will be in God's original likeness, not Adam's fallen state. But first, all current 8 billion+ people will either be placed in the LOF, placed in death, or redeemed out of death completely. The sheep and goats judgment in Matthew 25 will be Jesus on earth deciding who goes to the LOF, or who stays and inherits the earth. But the church will have already been removed to Paradise, and will not return until after the Millennial Kingdom. Most of the church are already in Paradise, and are physically enjoying that heavenly city, country, and mount zion, where that heavenly Temple is, where they are serving God day and night, evidently in shifts.