Who said that makes it correct? Why do we assume the early church knew it all? I don't believe they were any more enlightened than the rest of us and were still trying to figure out some things for themselves.
Skepticism versus gullibility
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Who said that makes it correct? Why do we assume the early church knew it all? I don't believe they were any more enlightened than the rest of us and were still trying to figure out some things for themselves.
Ya think?
Still, moving closer to the beginning is moving closer to the fire. It was the forced consolidation of beliefs that became Christianity's wet blanket.
Which of the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement do you align yourself with?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism
]
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
How many is "many"? All individuals? Or many individuals?
How many is "many" in these verses?:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. -- Daniel 9:27
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. -- Matthew 26:28
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. -- Mark 14:24
How many is "whosoever" in this verse, and what is everlasting life?:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
How many is "all" in these verses?:
Thus says the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the LORD. -- Jeremiah 31:37
Not as though the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. -- Romans 9:6.
Is it "all", or "many" that Jesus said will receive everlasting life?
It is indeed meant for all:
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. -- John 3:16.
So will all individuals receive this (by believing God), or will many receive this (by believing God)?:
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -- John 3:18.
From what I can see, God meant it for all and means it for all, and many reach out with their hand of faith to receive from the hand of God what he offers to all - but some will not, and for those who will not,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6.
It makes no difference to the truth about Universalism whether or not you understood or believed Universalism before you came to the forum, IMO (sorry but I'm being honest :) ).
Likewise it makes no difference to the truth about Universalism whether I believe it or not. I have not spent enough time following all the arguments for Universalism yet to know whether or not I would agree with the reasoning behind it. What you have seen me doing in this thread and in this post is sticking to the scriptures and expressing how I understand them.
I have gained some knowledge from some at Christians forums that has helped me understand what is written a little better, and reading the posts of others and how they link different passages of scripture together (whether or not they link scriptures together that actually belong together) nevertheless does help to remember where certain key themes may be repeated.
When my views are challenged it's because I've seen things in scripture that I never saw before due to overlooking stuff, and sometimes this has been helped by someone at these forums mentioning something and my realizing that I had overlooked whatever it was. But don't ask me for examples now because I do not keep records of when this occurs, because at the end of the day it's scripture changing my view and not what anyone else believes scripture to be teaching.
That's a great question, thanks.
It actually says "the many", not just many. It is the SAME "the many" that "were made sinners".
How many is that? We know that "the many" who were made sinners is ALL of humankind.
Therefore, "the many" that will be MADE righteous is also ALL of humankind.
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
]
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
IMO that doesn't sufficiently answer this:
How many is "whosoever" in this verse, and what is everlasting life?:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
We need to consider the NT Greek for the word eternal. Aionios. What does it mean?
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
]
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Firstly, what you wrote above doesn't sufficiently answer this - which you keep avoiding an answer to:
How many is "whosoever" in this verse?:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish."
Question: Does "whosoever believes in Him should not perish" mean "God so loved the world so that no one will perish"?
Secondly, you have made it clear to me that you have not considered the biblical meaning of the words aiṓn (age) aiṓnios (eternal age) and zōḗ (eternal life), as derived from the context of each verse they are found in, and your post above is a very good example of someone insisting that what is written does not mean what it says.
You have made it obvious to me that you have completely ignored the context in all the verses you quoted in order to make a false assertion.
Matthew 13:22:
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this age [aiṓn], and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word,and he becomes unfruitful.
The above is only referring to an age, not to life everlasting:
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'
properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).
00166 αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os from 165 [aiṓn];
perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
The word aiṓnios, which means eternal age, is derived from the word aiṓn, which means an age.
The word zōḗ is always referring to everlasting life, wherever it is used in the scripture of the New Testament, without exception.
John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life [aiṓnios zōḗ]: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life [zōḗ]; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:26:
For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.
John 5:29:
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life [zōḗ]; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 17:2-3:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life [aiṓnios zōḗ] to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal [zōḗ aiṓnios], that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
You cannot ignore the context of each verse the way you are doing. The word aiṓnios is also found in these verses:
Matthew 18:8:
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 19:16:
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:29:
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Matthew 25:41:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [aiṓnios] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 3:29:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke 16:9:
And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Romans 5:21
That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life [aiṓnios zōḗ] by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The list goes on and on - and it's a long list.
By all your posts to me in this thread so far you have already completely lost my consideration of the truthfulness of anything you say about this, because you have made it completely obvious to me that you have consciously changed and are continuously consciously changing the plain and obvious meaning of what is written in scripture to get it to suit your own doctrine.
Christ is Lord of ALL but Savior ONLY OF whosoever will believe in Him and ALL will confess Him as Lord because even those who do not believe in Him will have no option but to confess Him as Lord, but whosoever believes in Him will receive everlasting life. Their names are written in the Lamb's book of life and they will not experience the second death, which is also called the lake of fire.
So IMO nowhere is the New Testament telling us that all will be saved and all will receive everlasting life. Jesus does not use words lightly or to confuse anyone. Whosoever believes in Him will receive everlasting life does not mean all will receive everlasting life.
But you have already proved to me that you are changing the meaning of what is written to suit the doctrine you are trying to prove to me, because so far all your interpretations of the scriptures that you have quoted, have shown you to have consciously and deliberately changed the meaning of what is written, and also ignored the meaning of words which do not agree with your doctrine, so I don't need to give what you say about this any more consideration, because you have made me realize by now that what you believe regarding this, is wishful thinking.
Thanks for your time though :)
How many is "whosoever" in this verse?:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish."
Question: Does "whosoever believes in Him should not perish" mean "God so loved the world so that no one will perish"?
Secondly, you have made it clear to me that you have not considered the biblical meaning of the words aiṓn (age) aiṓnios (eternal age) and zōḗ (eternal life), as derived from the context of each verse they are found in, and your post above is a very good example of someone insisting that what is written does not mean what it says.
You have made it obvious to me that you have completely ignored the context in all the verses you quoted in order to make a false assertion.
Matthew 13:22:
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this age [aiṓn], and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word,and he becomes unfruitful.
The above is only referring to an age, not to life everlasting:
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'
properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).
00166 αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os from 165 [aiṓn];
perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
The word aiṓnios, which means eternal age, is derived from the word aiṓn, which means an age.
The word zōḗ is always referring to everlasting life, wherever it is used in the scripture of the New Testament, without exception.
John 3:36:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life [aiṓnios zōḗ]: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life [zōḗ]; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:26:
For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.
John 5:29:
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life [zōḗ]; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 17:2-3:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life [aiṓnios zōḗ] to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal [zōḗ aiṓnios], that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
You cannot ignore the context of each verse the way you are doing. The word aiṓnios is also found in these verses:
Matthew 18:8:
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 19:16:
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:29:
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Matthew 25:41:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [aiṓnios] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 3:29:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke 16:9:
And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Romans 5:21
That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life [aiṓnios zōḗ] by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The list goes on and on - and it's a long list.
By all your posts to me in this thread so far you have already completely lost my consideration of the truthfulness of anything you say about this, because you have made it completely obvious to me that you have consciously changed and are continuously consciously changing the plain and obvious meaning of what is written in scripture to get it to suit your own doctrine.
Christ is Lord of ALL but Savior ONLY OF whosoever will believe in Him and ALL will confess Him as Lord because even those who do not believe in Him will have no option but to confess Him as Lord, but whosoever believes in Him will receive everlasting life. Their names are written in the Lamb's book of life and they will not experience the second death, which is also called the lake of fire.
So IMO nowhere is the New Testament telling us that all will be saved and all will receive everlasting life. Jesus does not use words lightly or to confuse anyone. Whosoever believes in Him will receive everlasting life does not mean all will receive everlasting life.
But you have already proved to me that you are changing the meaning of what is written to suit the doctrine you are trying to prove to me, because so far all your interpretations of the scriptures that you have quoted, have shown you to have consciously and deliberately changed the meaning of what is written, and also ignored the meaning of words which do not agree with your doctrine, so I don't need to give what you say about this any more consideration, because you have made me realize by now that what you believe regarding this, is wishful thinking.
Thanks for your time though :)
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See post #23 for a video explanation.
All three doctrines of the final judgment have biblical support.
And all three doctrines are in conflict with each other.
Which of the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement do you align yourself with?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universalism
]
All false teachings have biblical support. In all the citations I gave to you earlier, some person, many of them Patriarchs came up with their own interpretation of some text. If you want to know how the Church answered false teachings read Acts 15 dealing with circumcision issue at what could be called the first Church Council or Council of Jerusalem.
I err on the side of eternal damination of the lost souls. With regards to annihilationism and universalism, I think they have an emotional appeal for anyone who has lost someone who was unsaved but that's it. The issue I have with universalism in particular is that it negates the necessity of the cross. What was the purpose of Christ's crucifiction and resurrection if everyone will be saved anyway? It also removes all personal accountability. What is the point of being good if it doesn't matter in the end?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Universalism is out, because a person has to customize the text of the scriptures by changing the meaning of words so that the same word speaks three languages but mean a different thing in English and Greek on one hand + the created language on the other hand.
And no one knows whether or not eternal damnation = annihilation because no one knows whether or not the second death / lake of fire means annihilation of body and soul.
So asking questions like the above is pointless because the question pretends that ALL believers can be placed in a box labeled with the answer to the question that precedes the question. Not everyone has made up his mind about what happens to the bodies and souls of individuals who have been thrown into the lake of fire. The question is presumptive.
Skepticism is fine until logical arguments and proof is presented.
Then after the logic is presented....still remaining Skeptical is defined as refusal to believe.
Which makes me believe you belong to the latter instead of the former. Logic is logic...you either understand logic or you don't. Do you want to be healed?
Then after the logic is presented....still remaining Skeptical is defined as refusal to believe.
Which makes me believe you belong to the latter instead of the former. Logic is logic...you either understand logic or you don't. Do you want to be healed?
Are we saved by logical arguments?
Are we lost for not agreeing with them?
There is some value in apologetics as a resource. But they have no power to save.
Neither are we saved by doctrine. There is no doctrinal consensus in the church.
Salvation can only be found in one source. What is that source?
]
Here is the problem from my perspective.
We were all raised in a church that organizes salvation like this:
No questions = believer = saved
Skeptic = unbeliever = lost
Here's the question;
If there were no questions, why would faith be required?
]
| Heb 11:6 | But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. |
Is fire hot?
Sun come up in the morning?
These questions have logical answers. Only someone dedicated to unbelief and withholding faith has more questions to these questions asked. It's really that simple. It's not complicated.
You either choose to believe or you don't.
This "I don't know yet" is people trying to play a game and hoping for a "since I was still seeking I don't think God will hold it against me".
That never works out for anyone either....it's as good as unbelief and is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
So, you bought that idea, I see.
What does the biblical context say that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is?
Here's what happened. (and why you shouldn't trust apologetics)
The apologists CHOSE to address "What is the unforgivable sin?"
instead of looking to the biblical context to answer the question,
"What is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
]
Calling what is good evil....or vice versa.
Which includes saying that the gospel message is worthless and not believable.
From the OP,
Just heard a sermon that came down pretty hard on skepticism.
Trying to process how I feel about that. Thanks for listening. (send help)
It appears that there is no room for healthy skepticism in the church.
But for some reason the skeptics weren't called gullible. No one was, actually.
We are offered apologetics to counteract skepticism. (unbelief)
I was raised evangelical Protestant.
I remember my state of shock when I found out where the Bible actually came from.
Not what the church told me.
I had never heard of the canon of scripture.
I thought a cannon was a war relic, not a religious relic. - Ha!
Same with the hell doctrine.
No one informed me that there were three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
They did bad-mouth Universalism though.
I had no idea that Universalism was actually a Christian doctrine from the early church in the East.
Which is where the church came from, hello?
And what about inerrancy? Don't get me started... Grr...
Anyone else want to rant on either aspect? Thanks.
[
Just heard a sermon that came down pretty hard on skepticism.
Trying to process how I feel about that. Thanks for listening. (send help)
It appears that there is no room for healthy skepticism in the church.
But for some reason the skeptics weren't called gullible. No one was, actually.
We are offered apologetics to counteract skepticism. (unbelief)
I was raised evangelical Protestant.
I remember my state of shock when I found out where the Bible actually came from.
Not what the church told me.
I had never heard of the canon of scripture.
I thought a cannon was a war relic, not a religious relic. - Ha!
Same with the hell doctrine.
No one informed me that there were three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
They did bad-mouth Universalism though.
I had no idea that Universalism was actually a Christian doctrine from the early church in the East.
Which is where the church came from, hello?
And what about inerrancy? Don't get me started... Grr...
Anyone else want to rant on either aspect? Thanks.
[
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