Secure Eternal Salvation

[robert derrick]

That's a fact. Even Paul, from whom we get the 'justification apart from works' gospel, said the faith that justifies is the faith that obeys...

"All that matters (towards justification) is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6​

And so what that means is faith in the blood of Christ to wash away your sin guilt is the faith that moves you to obey God's commands, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

"...because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47
​

See it? Because her many sins have been forgiven, she loved much.
And notice Jesus says it is her faith that saved her, not the obedience of her love:

And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Luke 7:50
​

Faith without action is dead and can not save, because faith without obedience is not the faith that saves. It isn't really faith. If it was, it would work.

Pages and pages of OSAS discussion would cease if we all just understood that is the fundamental argument of whether OSAS is true or not. Can a real believer stop believing? That's all we need to know to settle this.

We don't need to know that, because it is only a smokescreen for saved by faith alone.

Saved by faith alone is the real devil in the doctrine.

It doesn't matter where we were saved or never saved, but whether we are saved today, and faith without works is dead, being alone.

Faith without action is dead and can not save, because faith without obedience is not the faith that saves. It isn't really faith. If it was, it would work.

The faith of Jesus obeys Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

having been reborn, we'll go on to do good works, but those works don't mean a thing towards our being saved, they are entirely after the fact.

I.e. we may go on to good works, we just don't have to.

How long 'after the fact' does obedience kick in?

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys. There is no believing without obeying.

When believing enters the heart, so does obeying, without delay:

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.

Salvation by faith alone is not the salvation, justification, and righteousness of God.

OSAS faith alone is a delusional belief in salvation by faith alone.

"I believe I am saved, therefore I am saved."

 

[robert derrick]

We have an understanding with Him that is true, that belief and obedience is the same thing:

We are saved by grace through obedience to the faith, and so eternal salvation is for all them that believe and obey Him.

Salvation by works alone is just as false as salvation by faith alone.

Faith is obedience, which is the evidence of things unseen: eternal salvation.

Faith and obedience to God is from the heart: obedience without faith does not please God, and faith without obedience is dead to God.

 

[robert derrick]

Mental assent to the death and resurrection of Jesus does not save a soul.

Since OSAS salvation cannot be judged by works, then neither can their faith.

Faith that has no evidence of things unseen, is mental faith.

Faith alone therefore is mental assent only: believing without obeying.

OSAS first preaches salvation by faith alone, and then condemns mental assent only.

OSAS is a thoroughly twisted doctrine of self-contradiction and confusion.

All because they don't want to believe in obedience to the faith with eternal salvation of the soul.

Obedience to the faith is anathema to their salvation security.

 

[robert derrick]

External obedience is a visible sign that one is saved.

Carnal minded reasoning in the gospel of the cross is disgusting and sickening, which is why Jesus spews out such rubbish.

Baptism is a sign, not the obedience to the faith to be baptised.

Obedience to God is from the heart, which is believing God from the heart.

OSAS obedience is only a sign, even as their faith is alone.

But it is not the conclusive sign nor the primary sign.

And it's not even the 'real' sign.

OSAS 'primary' sign must therefore be words only.

OSAS obedience is virtue signalling to God Showing him some 'sign'.

They shine on Him their white light. And speak of Him with their white noise.

And the blood of Jesus is their white cover for sin.

God sees those who are his no matter how many good works or lack thereof are present in their life.

I.e. God sees my heart is good, even when my works are evil.

OSAS is hippy-dippy yahoo liberalism on steroids.

Works can be done that seem "good" but are actually motivated by ego.

I.e. OSAS virtue signalling as the sign of their obedience.

There is no external obedience to God without internal obedience from the heart.

External obedience is just a non-primary 'sign' of OSAS.

Without faith and obedience in the heart, there is no eternal salvation that believes unto righteousness.

OSAS faith alone has no obedience from the heart: Salvation without obedience in the heart is mental only.

Salvation by faith alone without obedience, is salvation alone without eternal life.

 

[bbyrd009]

us…


and them

 

[robert derrick]

In Scripture, believing and obeying are interchangeable:

We are saved by grace through faith. Eternal life is for them that obey Him.

We are saved by grace through obedient faith. Eternal life is for them that obediently believe Him.

So then, who wants to argue against being saved through obedient faith? Obediently believing Him?

Are we saved by disobedient faith? Is there disobediently believing Him?

There is only one faith that is neither obedient nor disobedient: Faith alone.

And there is only one salvation by faith alone, that neither need obey nor disobey: Mental salvation only.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree.
But I disagree with the Catholic church that you can get it back. Or that's it's necessary for a saved person to continually get it back after sinning. A person who continues in their believing continues in the one-time justification they received when they first believed, despite the failures along the way of growing up into the stature of Christ. The only sin that can cause a believing person to not continue in that one-time justification is the sin of unbelief. If they stop believing/trusting in the blood of Christ they lose any benefit of the one-time justification they received when they first believed. And, once God turns them over to that decision, they are not allowed to get it back.

Then, you disagree with Jesus.

Jesus stated that the ONLY sin that would not be forgiven was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31). In context, this means FINAL impenitence and refusal to accept the truth. As long as we are alive - there is ALWAYS a chance to repent, as we see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) - and God us ALWAYS willing to forgive.

Jesus told Peter that he must forgive his brother - not 7 times, but 7 times 70 (unlimited) as God does (Matt. 18:21-22).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Believing means TRUSTING.
All references to believing in regard to salvation mean trusting in the blood of Christ for justification.

"God presented Him as the atoning sacrificei through faith in His blood" Romans 3:25​

Demons do not have 'faith in his blood'.
To willingly turn back to one's sins is to cease having faith in Jesus' blood for forgiveness.

And this goes back to my point about WHAT true faith is.
True faith = Belief + Complete Surrender (trust, works, obedience).

Willful disobedience is NOT a matter of unbelief - but a lack of faith. The people in Matt. 7:21 truly though that they were saved because the believed by the works they were doing in His name. They lacked true faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because the points I challenged you on weren't OSAS points.
You instantly went into anti-OSAS when that's not even what I was challenging you about.

And the fact that you can't drop this already shows me TWO things:
- You are too full of self-pride to let this go.
- You lack the maturity to let this go.

Nobody is attacking you. I have repeatedly conceded the fact that I was mistaken when I responded to your initial post.

Now - let's see if you can muster the maturity to drop this now . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Bible does not teach that the Catholic church is the church of God/Christ.

The Bible teaches that there was ONE Church in the NT which was in several LOCATIONS (THE Church IN Corinth, THE Church IN Ephesus, THE Church IN Galatia, etc.). It was NOT a gaggle of "denominations" with different and competing doctrines.
Church History teaches us WHAT the name of that ONE Church in the 1st century was . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).”

Tell me – WHAT Church does that sound like, described here by the Apostle John’s lifelong student, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who was ordained by Peter?
Oh yeah - HE calls it, “The Catholic Church.”

And before you try to say that this was NOT used as a title but only a “description” – here is an excerpt from another 2nd century document that describes the death of another student of John’s and a contemporary of Ignatius:

This document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, has a very interesting phrase in it which would make NO sense at all if what you're claiming is true. Let's take a look, shall we?

Excerpt from The Martyrdom of Polycarp:
When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath.

The words, καθ ολης (katah-holos) is GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal”.

The phrase in this document - which, by the way, is ALSO written in GREEK - would be horribly redundant, if not comical if this was NOT being used as the Title of the Church. It would go something like this:
"... and the whole whole throughout Church throughout the world ..."

It is blindingly clear that this document is using the term Catholic Church as a TITLE and not a mere description or the wording would make no sense whatsoever.

 

[Cassandra]

I have a question for the OSASers :
Suppose I give my life to Jesus and I'm saved. Later on, down the road a few years, I get into an altercation with someone. I am so angry I kill him. (I showed no remorse for killing. I was just angry and went off on the guy.)The police show up and shoot me and I die. Am I still saved?

I would like, in your opinion, a yes or no answer. I don't need Bible verses, as are plenty in this thread from both sides. What I need is your judgement of the situation, based on your understanding of OSAS.

 

[bbyrd009]

hmm youre saved but you kill a guy? Cops killed you but you’re saved?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As long as they are believing those sins are covered by the blood they believe and trust in.

A minor point, but it is the love of God that covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8). The blood of Jesus only washes clean.

Which is why He loves us by convincing us of sin, that we may come clean with Him and be cleaned by Him through His blood.

The blood 'covering' sins, which is not found in Scripture, to me smacks of saved by faith alone, so that we have no sin, because God can see no sin 'under' His blood.

God sees all our sins, until they are washed clean of us by His blood.

Saved by faith alone believe in a whitewashing blood, where the sins are hidden against the wall by the whited paint, and remain there so long as the paint is there.

Such paint ends at the cross of faith that believes, or in the grave with shame and condemnation.

Propitiation is the correct word.

 

[Cassandra]

I have a question for the OSASers :
Suppose I give my life to Jesus and I'm saved. Later on, down the road a few years, I get into an altercation with someone. I am so angry I kill him. (I showed no remorse for killing. I was just angry and went off on the guy.)The police show up and shoot me and I die. Am I still saved?

I would like, in your opinion, a yes or no answer. I don't need Bible verses, as are plenty in this thread from both sides. What I need is your judgement of the situation, based on your understanding of OSAS.

hmm youre saved but you kill a guy? Cops killed you but you’re saved?

Yes. The scenario shows a few years down the road.
Are you OSAS? Can you answer?
People get mad and and sin. I just want to know, if the above happened, am i still saved, since I guess Christ's blood covers future sins too.

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you OSAS? Can you answer?
People get mad and and sin. I just want to know, if the above happened, am i still saved, since I guess Christ's blood covers future sins too

well im pretty sure we have different definitions of “saved” right now…yours being about eligibility for an “afterlife,” im assuming? Whereas mine would likely be more centered on the fact that you got shot and died, ergo not “saved” at all

but since that isnt much of an answer, ill say that osas assumes that one has been “saved” at all, to begin with, which i pretty much doubt, or to put that another way, few there are who find it, or iow i doubt that very many people claiming to be “saved” actually are, and prolly actually none of the ones claiming it tbh

saying “im saved” unequivocally is pretty much an expression of lostness, when perceived thru a certain lens anyway; it is something said by the wise in their own eyes

 

[amadeus]

us…


and them

Even so and if the only in between places, is lukewarm? Should we get off?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have to be a believer when Christ returns to be saved from his wrath when he returns.

I find it interesting that you think a person who used to believe but doesn't anymore is a person who is dead in Christ and hidden with Christ and will appear with him when he returns. Unbelievers, whether they used to believe or not, are not saved. I can't believe we even have to have this discussion. This was understood very well and did not even need to be discussed just 20 or 25 years ago.

I say that simply because you are simply judging based on appearance while God judges from the inside. god knows if a person truly got saved or not! If they are truly a child of God, they cannot become an unchild of God, The Bible forbids that kind of thought! I do not support, encourage or promote believers to fail. But I do know that if a believer stumbles, god will keep them from falling.

We cannot turn our backs on Jesus. He will never leave or forsake us! If we turn th eother way- He turns with us- so we cannot turn our backs.

You don't understand yet that you are a new man being conformed into the image of Jesus. The old sinner is dead and gone forever! Even though we still sin (old thought habits God is ridding us via Romans 12:1-3)

We are alreadu inheavenly places, we are already dead in and his in Jesus! He elected us from the foundation of the World, foreknew us predestined us etc.etc.etc. He is not going to do all that just to undo it and say whoops my bad!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The thread began with the irrefutable Scripture of necessity of obedience to the faith for eternal salvation, which was never addressed, especially not refuted.

Because it cannot be.

Well that belief in the greek is a once for all time belief! In grammatic terms, it is an action that continues to hold true throughout all time!

Teh Bible shows many types of faith a believer displays.

1. Saving faith- a once for all time act
2. living faith- this is the faith given us by which we do th eworks fo God
3. Miracle faith to do and believe in god doing miracles.

2&3 are active ongoing practices. If we fail thiese we will not be blessed because we will allow sin to block our fellowship with God, not our relationship.

Children are children forever. They are either obedient of disobedient children.

 

[robert derrick]

You act as if we're conditionally saved, which is heresy, and are slaves to God the master. Who cracks the whip if we don't remain obedient to what?
The master whip cracker of your faith? Who dies to take the world's sins, not all sins of all people, but the sins of the world itself.
That whomever he gifts with faith and salvation by his grace, shall perish if they aren't strictly obedient to his every whim to the day they die. And only after death will that conditionally appointed person find out if they worked,obeyed enough, to be rewarded with eternal life.

You have to turn scripture on its head, eradicate context all together, and then twist God into a lying egocentric psychopath, to believe that is The Word made flesh and his message of good news.

Seriously. This is the kind of thing I was talking about before. Unbelievers posing as Christians, fouling scripture, insisting lies are truth, because they get satisfaction watching Christians try to change their mind.

You act as if we're conditionally saved, which is heresy, and are slaves to God the master. Who cracks the whip if we don't remain obedient to what?

The faith of Jesus.

And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ.

Faith alone sees servitude to the righteousness of God as a repellent whip.

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

I act conditionally saved by obedience to the faith, while you act unconditionally saved by disobedience to the faith.

strictly obedient to his every whim to the day they die.

Strict obedience to His every whim is anathema to the devil, who resented such obedience from the beginning.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

The carnal mind on display. "What?? I am expected to obey Him in all things??! What heresy!!!"

And only after death will that conditionally appointed person find out if they worked,obeyed enough, to be rewarded with eternal life. You have to turn scripture on its head, eradicate context all together, and then twist God into a lying egocentric psychopath. Seriously. This is the kind of thing I was talking about before.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Seriously. The carnal minded rant is from a heart of hate against them that preach righteousness of God by obedience to the faith of God for eternal salvation is...most indignant. Their indignance against obedience is...blubbering rubbish.

because they get satisfaction watching Christians try to change their mind.

I.e. they know it's true, but they refuse the correction, because their reprobate minds are made up about a made up mental faith that is alone and dead.

I will not! disbelieve in faith alone!!!!

They rage on against the truth and are as scarlet red about it as the beast upon whom the mother of harlots sits.

Let them huff and puff, until their nostrils burn smoke from the pit (Rev 9:2). It won't change the Scripture of truth.

Pytho is a real hoot:

"Obedience to the faith with eternal salvation is straight from the pit of hell!!! Arrrrghh!!"

The Word made flesh and his message of good news.

Good news. By the faith of Jesus we can certainly obey Him.

Can anyone seriously believe the lengths to which these people go to condemn salvation by the faith of Jesus that obeys Him??

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

No big mystery. It's called salvation by faith alone. The real mystery of iniquity is how indignant they get, when obedience is even suggested as necessary for the salvation that is to them that obey Him. And not for them that believe only, which is dead on arrival.