Sanctified and Justified

[Netchaplain]

I believe born again includes sanctification unto justification (1 Cor 6:11). Many have the idea that sanctification is an ongoing process, but it involves a single act which never needs to be repeated. Same as salvation, which is eternal, or it isn’t salvation (Heb 5:9).

The believer is maturing or being conformed continually but it's not through sanctification, which has already taken place, "For both He that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one" (Heb 2:11).

Everything from Christ (sanctification, justification, righteousness, holiness, etc.) is fully supplied to the believer (2 Pet 1:3) and it's now a matter of the maturation from these things. They are all-inclusive in our salvation which now has become a matter of "working out your own salvation" (Phil 2:12); again, not to produce these things (already supplied) but to mature in them. The idea of "working out" has to do with figuring out, as in understanding by learning an equation which has been solved.

Once the believer has been "set apart" (sanctification), it becomes solely a matter of conformation (Rom 8:29) and transformation (Rom 12:2)--which are ongoing processes by the Spirit of God.
-NC

 

[biggandyy]

I am not sure if it is a Reformed view or a Baptist distinctive that Regeneration is the instantaneous occurrence while sanctification is the ongoing process. We might be quibbling over terminology since, once set apart by God we need not be set apart again and again, but isn't that through regeneration rather than sanctification?

 

[Hepzibah]

Absolutely agree NetChap. Set apart to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Holy as He is holy. Sinless or not saved.

 

[Netchaplain]

Absolutely agree NetChap. Set apart to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Holy as He is holy. Sinless or not saved.

Thanks for your reply, but I believe the saint is guiltless, but not sinless (1 John 1:8). Christ's atonement "condemned sin" which nullified its guilt in the believer and is how the Spirit can now indwell him.

 

[Rex]

I am not sure if it is a Reformed view or a Baptist distinctive that Regeneration is the instantaneous occurrence while sanctification is the ongoing process. We might be quibbling over terminology since, once set apart by God we need not be set apart again and again, but isn't that through regeneration rather than sanctification?

My observation and understanding is that it's maturing in Christ, it's a concuss effort a desire. I liken it to ascending a staircase, He draws me and teaches me.
Along the way there are clear victories and rewards, personal revelations in the knowledge of God. I also believe that If you are persistent in your life time you ascend a step to stand before the throne and kneel, but in no way is your training complete, you have instead become a brother. I so dearly and in all humility encourage others to continue the journey. and as always I have the bible stories to support what I have just said, It troubles me when I see so many heading into dead ends standing at the end of their understanding proclaiming this is the way, it is here I take my stand. You have to put yourself aside be willing to forsake the comforts of this world and its security and be satisfied "over whelmed" by the inter rewards and the Holy Spirit. After a while you will understand what is meant by forsaking all things for the Lord. I believe every sheep will one day become a brother, I am simply encouraging everyone with a ear to hear to boldly choose to lay up for yourself gifts that will endure. I'm not even concerned about heavenly gifts I'm more concerned with securing what I have tasted in its fullest measure.

BTW NC I completely agree


Phil 1:6

 

[Hepzibah]

Thanks for your reply, but I believe the saint is guiltless, but not sinless (1 John 1:8). Christ's atonement "condemned sin" which nullified its guilt in the believer and is how the Spirit can now indwell him.

You`ll find out one day - I`m not going to try to convince you but its the big lie that fools everyone.

 

[Netchaplain]

I am not sure if it is a Reformed view or a Baptist distinctive that Regeneration is the instantaneous occurrence while sanctification is the ongoing process. We might be quibbling over terminology since, once set apart by God we need not be set apart again and again, but isn't that through regeneration rather than sanctification?

Regeneration and sanctification are single simultaneous occurrences. We grow in our sanctification, but we are sanctified because of being regenerated (renewed).

You`ll find out one day - I`m not going to try to convince you but its the big lie that fools everyone.

Kindly put and I know what you mean, but the issue of the believer's condition is essential to proper growth and is important to get right.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You`ll find out one day - I`m not going to try to convince you but its the big lie that fools everyone.

H, you might be the one surprised in that day. Faith without works is dead.

This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

 

[biggandyy]

Regeneration and sanctification are single simultaneous occurrences. We grow in our sanctification, but we are sanctified because of being regenerated (renewed).

That I can agree with, thanks.

 

[williemac]

You`ll find out one day - I`m not going to try to convince you but its the big lie that fools everyone.

So you are here to dangle a carrot, telling us that you know something but are keeping silent? It fools everyone, does it? All except you and a select few?
But you have already let the cat out of the bag with this comment....
". Set apart to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Holy as He is holy. Sinless or not saved."
Sinless or not saved? O really? What bible are you reading...or should I ask.. what limited part of the bible are you hanging this on? I may remind you that we do not save ourselves. This would be like drowning in water, splashing around unable to swim, then going to get swimming lessons so that you can go back in the water and swim and not drown. Is that what you are selling us? We are sanctified, justified, filled with the Spirit, so that we can quit sinning so that we can be saved? So much for the sacrifice of Jesus.
I have news for you. God made a promise to Abraham. Then Abraham, after one failure, resulting in an illegitimate son, showed that he believed the promise, and therefore it was accounted to him as righteousness. Imagine that. He did not even need to actually be righteous. He simply believed, and righteousness was placed on his account. (imputed) But hold on. Our covenant is not as good as that one. No, wait, my mistake. It is a better covenant based on better promises.
I advise you to humble yourself and be open to correction.

Gal.3:1-3....."O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among us as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Vs.6..." Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Vs7. Therefore you know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham."
Vs. 11. "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith"
vs. 13..Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us..."
I could go on. Paul equates the law with the flesh. Those who are attempting to be justified by the law are those who are walking in the flesh. This is the truth. Keeping the law is not sinning. If we are saved by not sinning, then Paul, and Jesus, and John, and God, (etc.) got it wrong. Maybe we should forsake all of them and listen to you. <_< (tongue in cheek)

 

[Hepzibah]

williemac

It`s in the whole of the Bible. Sin is man`s problem and Jesus came to save a man from sin. The OT is full to the brim with the concept of holiness which is the condition of man with his sin problem dealt with. Only two choices, be a sinner or be saved, in this life not the next.

Man has twisted this to mean that man can be saved yet still sin and twists many verses to prove it. It is the work of Satan.

Through Christs death His holiness ie His nature can be transfered to man, not as a notion but as a reality. All it takes is faith that God`s words can be fulfilled in actuality then the man stops sinning because his nature is changed.

Those whose nature has not been changed do not believe it is possible and they ridicule those who testify to it.

The faith required is that God can do ALL He promises, not just a part of it. His promise in the whole scripture is to make a man holy and be able to walk as Christ walked,.

Man has whittled this down to believing that Jesus is the Son of God is enough to save and leaves out the rest because he does not want to make the sacrifice required ie to submit all of his rights to Christ.

This will be clear one day and the ones who oppose it will be left at the door. Be warned.

 

[Netchaplain]

That I can agree with, thanks.

BA - I wanted to re-edit what I posted here: "We grow in our sanctification." It's more accurate to say we grow, not in our sanctification but from it, because sanctification is not in degrees but the growth from it is.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Man has twisted this to mean that man can be saved yet still sin and twists many verses to prove it. It is the work of Satan.

H, those who say they don't sin at all are deceived. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Do you have perfect faith? If not you sin. If you say you are perfect, you are a liar, and thus sin. Please explain this contradiction.

 

[ScottAU]

H, those who say they don't sin at all are deceived. Whatever is not of faith is sin. Do you have perfect faith? If not you sin. If you say you are perfect, you are a liar, and thus sin. Please explain this contradiction.

What is not of faith is sin because sin is a violation of one's conscience.

Look at the context...

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Paul is teaching that we are to live by our conscience for we have liberty in Christ.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The law of liberty is that of a faith that works by love.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Immediately before Romans 14 Paul writes this...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

He then goes into the chapter that ends with "what is not of faith is sin" which is a concluding statement in the context of the liberty we have in Christ in not being under the "letter of the law." Instead of being under the letter we are under the Spirit.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Thus we have liberty in food, drink and sabbath days. We are to walk by faith according to our conscience. Thus...

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.



Yet what do you do with Rom 14:23? You rip it out of its context in an attempt to discredit Hepzibah's contention that the Christian indeed ceased from sin and walks in purity. I don't even think your realise what you are doing but you are treading on very dangerous ground and are self deceived and thus cannot see the error of your words.

Jesus was not mocking the inability of man when He commanded "go and sin no more." Jesus meant it. We have the full capability of going and sinning no more by walking in the Spirit. Thus...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Look at what Ezekiel wrote...

Eze_3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

The righteous have stopped sinning.


You are in denial of what the Bible plainly states.

You deny the words of 1st John. John plainly states that those who are born of God and thus abide in Jesus Christ do not sin. You don't believe what the Bible states.

1Joh 1:8 is not a verse which proves that those born of God will always be sinning. No. As I have shown you before it is clearly a repentance passage when taken in context. Yet you never quote the context, you isolate it out of context to try and cotend for ongoing sinfulness.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Joh 1:8-10 is about how we initially approach God in repentance confessing our wrong doing. John is teaching that no-one can approach God in repentance and claim they have no sin. It is through confessing and forsaking our sins that we find pardon and reconciliation with God.

You cannot refute what I wrote above. You have to blow it off with some rhetoric.

The Bible clearly proves you in error.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What is not of faith is sin because sin is a violation of one's conscience.

You cannot refute what I wrote above. You have to blow it off with some rhetoric.

The Bible clearly proves you in error.

The bible says:

If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith. Habakkuk 2:4

Scott, if you don't have perfect faith, you are not perfectly just (righteous), and therefore a sinner.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is sin not unto death. 1 John 5:17

 

[Rex]

BA - I wanted to re-edit what I posted here: "We grow in our sanctification." It's more accurate to say we grow, not in our sanctification but from it, because sanctification is not in degrees but the growth from it is.

Very nice and and a verse that says just that Acts

Acts 26
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Sanctified by the HS Romans 15:16
1 Cor 6:11

A warning
Heb 10:28-29

[SIZE=80%]28 [/SIZE]Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SIZE=80%]29 [/SIZE]How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,[SIZE=80%]l[/SIZE] who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Don't be insulting the Spirit of grace
Zech 12:10

 

[williemac]

What is not of faith is sin because sin is a violation of one's conscience.

Look at the context...

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Paul is teaching that we are to live by our conscience for we have liberty in Christ.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The law of liberty is that of a faith that works by love.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Immediately before Romans 14 Paul writes this...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

He then goes into the chapter that ends with "what is not of faith is sin" which is a concluding statement in the context of the liberty we have in Christ in not being under the "letter of the law." Instead of being under the letter we are under the Spirit.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Thus we have liberty in food, drink and sabbath days. We are to walk by faith according to our conscience. Thus...

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.



Yet what do you do with Rom 14:23? You rip it out of its context in an attempt to discredit Hepzibah's contention that the Christian indeed ceased from sin and walks in purity. I don't even think your realise what you are doing but you are treading on very dangerous ground and are self deceived and thus cannot see the error of your words.

Jesus was not mocking the inability of man when He commanded "go and sin no more." Jesus meant it. We have the full capability of going and sinning no more by walking in the Spirit. Thus...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Look at what Ezekiel wrote...

Eze_3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

The righteous have stopped sinning.


You are in denial of what the Bible plainly states.

You deny the words of 1st John. John plainly states that those who are born of God and thus abide in Jesus Christ do not sin. You don't believe what the Bible states.

1Joh 1:8 is not a verse which proves that those born of God will always be sinning. No. As I have shown you before it is clearly a repentance passage when taken in context. Yet you never quote the context, you isolate it out of context to try and cotend for ongoing sinfulness.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Joh 1:8-10 is about how we initially approach God in repentance confessing our wrong doing. John is teaching that no-one can approach God in repentance and claim they have no sin. It is through confessing and forsaking our sins that we find pardon and reconciliation with God.

You cannot refute what I wrote above. You have to blow it off with some rhetoric.

The Bible clearly proves you in error.

I noticed you did not include 1John2:1. " My little children, these things I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

In his letter, John is exhorting his readers to walk in righteousness and abstain from sin. Paul also made the same plea to his readers. If this exhortation is needed, this is proof in itself that it is entirely possible for the believer to sin. Hence 1John 2:1.

I agree with your conclusion that 1John 1:9 is a description of the initial event of coming to God with confession of sin to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness. I disagree with those who insist that this is needed to be repeated over and over again in the life of a believer. In Him we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin. We do not jump in and out of being in Christ. The forgiveness is perpetual. It is yesterday, today, and forever.

Here is a passage that is found in 1John 5:4. There is a word in it that some have been using a lot. See if you can recognize it.
" For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-OUR FAITH.

As well, in 1John 3:9, he makes an incredible statement; one that you are making as well.
" Whoever has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him....." There you are. Just what you and others are saying. But this is not the end of that verse. He goes on to say..." and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God"
Cannot sin? What about 1John 2:1..."if anyone sins"? Either we can sin or we cannot sin. There is no middle ground. So why the apparent contradiction? Here it is: The part of us that is born of God is our spirit, also called the new man. This part of us is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24), and cannot sin. If we do sin, it is not the new man who is blamed. It is the old man. But the old man is declared dead in Christ. His position is that he has already been crucified with Christ for sin.

Therefore as Paul declared in Rom.7:17&20, if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in me.
Can a believer sin? Certainly. Do we identify the believer with his sin? Who are we to go against God in this matter?

As for cherry picking verses from John's letter, we could trade blows all day. But it is more profitable to get an understanding of his intention and his theme in writing the letter. It happens that the word "love" is found no less than 36 times in 1John.

Here is one reference..(1John3:23)..." And this is His commandment; that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and LOVE one another, as He gave us commandment". Another: 1John 4:7..." Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God".

If one wants to condemn a believer for sin in his life, then where do we draw the line? There are some who say a smoker cannot be saved. But what about obesity? Is this not an indication of a lust for food? Some would say so. How many fat preachers are out there? I do not intend to insult anyone. Just saying...if we look hard enough we can find sin in anyone. Even in those who don't think they have sin. They are in denial. Or maybe they just don't understand what sin is. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. If anyone is so naive to think that his or her life is equal to the glory of God, then another reminder to that person. Have a look at Luke 18:10-14, where we find two men praying to God. The conclusion in vs.14 is that he who exalts himself will be humbled. No man will stand before God and get away with boasting in his walk. No man. We stand before Him entirely by His grace and mercy. Now and forever. This is the victory that overcomes....Our faith. (a fruit of humility)
As an edit, I will mention the conscience. It is the blood of Jesus that purges our conscience. We cannot purge it by our own effort or obedience. Jesus has removed our guilt. We do not remove it by our own effort. It is the law that brings the conscience back into play, not sin.
Blessings, Howie

 

[Hepzibah]

As well, in 1John 3:9, he makes an incredible statement; one that you are making as well.
" Whoever has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him....." There you are. Just what you and others are saying. But this is not the end of that verse. He goes on to say..." and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God"
Cannot sin? What about 1John 2:1..."if anyone sins"? Either we can sin or we cannot sin. There is no middle ground. So why the apparent contradiction

If anyone sins, is referring to what you said

I agree with your conclusion that 1John 1:9 is a description of the initial event of coming to God with confession of sin to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The confusion is over the difference between a believer and a Christian. When the scripture is saying that a Christian does not sin, the meaning is that if they do sin then they are no longer Christians but are still believers but who are not walking in the power of the Holy Spirit, This is the position of those who have not been taught the full gospel, that Christ comes to save from all sin or those who reject it. This is the position of the man in Romans 7, the man who wishes to cease from sin but has not yet experienced the full sanctification waiting for those who will just believe it possible. The reason why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the passage is because He is still unknown as the power of an endless life ie holiness.

Believers sin, but if they come to Christ for deliverance they will be saved.

I am not condeming those who still sin and who wish to stop - I was in that place. God Himself though condemns those who shorten the gospel to one where a man is like a compost heap covered in snow and is happy to stay there instead of hungering and thirsting for holiness. Those are not condemned even though they struggle with sin.

 

[Rex]

Remarkably enough I find that this teaching has its roots in the Pentecostal movement, those that believe in evidence of tongues as proof of the HS.

The Dangers of "Sinless Perfection" Doctrine
By Reese Currie, Compass Distributors
I’ve been receiving an increased volume of e-mail lately from proponents of "sinless perfection" doctrine in response to my article, "Can We Live Sin Free?" None of these supposedly sinless folks offer any argumentation from the Bible, since the doctrine they espouse can’t be found there, but yet they seem quite concerned that I’m doing terrible things to peoples’ Christian walk in maintaining that humans never attain sinless perfection. I am, according to one writer, "an agent of Satan" holding back the true believers in Christ, and should "seek God and be taught of Him."
Obviously, another article on this is required, since the first, although quite laden with Biblical facts on the matter, does not dissuade these people from e-mailing me to label me a heretic, unknowledgeable, and "Satan’s agent." So, I offer these facts about people who advocate "sinless perfection."
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Believe the Bible.
James writes, "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). So, is James not saying here that a man can indeed be perfect? No, because only a few verses later, he comments, "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:8).
There are two things about sinless perfection to be drawn from James’ comments. First off, James is stating that no man can tame even the tongue to the point of perfection, let alone his whole body. Advocates of sinless perfection are calling James a liar and are calling the Scripture a lie in this instance.
The second thing to note is that James is using the example of a man being perfect as a ridiculous impossibility in his writing. He is stating that all men stumble in their words, and he says anyone who claims otherwise is claiming something as ridiculous as personal sinless perfection. Advocates of sinless perfection actually believe the very thing that James cites as a ridiculous, impossible example.
Certainly we should strive to tame the tongue. We should do the best we possibly can in all areas of life. But it is unrealistic to expect perfection when the Bible itself plainly says such perfection is impossible.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Have the Same Religion as the Early Church
Look carefully at the first part of James 3:2. It says, "For we all stumble in many things." The "we" here refers to Christians. James is identifying himself with "all" the Christians he writes to, stating directly that neither he, nor they, are perfect. "We all stumble in many things." Since advocates of sinless perfection do not believe they stumble in anything, they disassociate themselves from James—and they are therefore not a part of the Christian religion. James was inarguably a part of the Christian religion, but advocates of sinless perfection refuse to be included in James’ comments toward all Christians, including himself.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Are Spiritually Dead.
People who think they are sinless are obviously experiencing no conviction for sin whatsoever. They believe themselves to be perfect in every way and incapable of sinning. Scripture has already demonstrated that people who do not believe they are sinning are mistaken. In fact, Scripture paints a bleak picture for anyone who is under the delusion that they are without sin.
1John 1:8 states simply, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." People who are oblivious to the fact that they still have sin do not have the Spirit of truth within them. There is no light shining to expose the darkness of their souls.
There is sin in everyone, but how can we explain that a subculture within Christendom, the "sinless perfection" crowd, feels no conviction for the sin they have whatsoever? It is easily explained. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."
The Holy Spirit convicts the real children of God for their sins. But fakes, even if they do not realize they are fakes, receive no conviction because, since they are not God’s sons, God does not discipline them.
Two points here point definitively to a condition of spiritual death for people who believe in sinless perfection. First, the truth does not reside in people who say they have no sin. Second, people who never feel conviction for their sins have never been adopted by the Father; they may think they are sons, but they are not.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Refuse to Repent of Present Sin.
1John 1:8-10 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
The very act of claiming to be sinless is a sin in itself, as this Scripture so ably demonstrates. A person claiming not to have sin deceives himself or herself, and in effect calls Christ a liar.
Being cleared of sin is so simple! All we have to do is confess that we have sinned, and our sin is forgiven and we are cleansed of our unrighteousness. The problem is, a person who considers himself or herself to be sinless cannot confess sin. To confess sinning would run contrary to their belief that they have sinless perfection. So, because they will not admit that they are indeed sinners, they cannot have the forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is for Sinners, Not for the Sinless.
Jesus said it so well: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Luke 5:32). And yet, the Bible says no one is righteous: "As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one;’" (Romans 3:10). So what did Jesus mean? He meant He did not come for people who claimed to be righteous, He came for those who knew they were sinners. He did not come for the self-righteous; He came for those who would repent, knowing that they needed Him.
Some correspondents have accused me of encouraging Christians to keep on sinning since they cannot be "perfect" and "sinless." It isn’t my aim to make people sin, but it is my aim to make people recognize reality: they will never be perfect as long as they have a "flesh" component. Unless people will confess this, they have no need of Jesus—and will not get to have Him.
The Struggle is the Proof of Salvation.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:18-25).
As long as any person has flesh, that flesh will be serving sin. It will always be warring against the spiritual mind. We will be delivered from this sin completely only when we are delivered from "this body of death." It is only at that point that the Christian is "completely sanctified."
The absence of this struggle between body and soul means that the body has won and the soul is actually given over to sinfulness. The flesh does not become justified! So if the struggle between body and soul ends, it can only be because the flesh has won.
Closing Words.
Those who think they have attained "sinless perfection" are the most unfortunate of us all. Not only do they remain sinners, contrary to their claim, but because they refuse to admit their sinfulness, they cannot avail themselves of Jesus Christ through repentance, to forgive them and to help them do better.

 

[Hepzibah]

Pentecostalism, took traditional holiness teaching and pushed tongues into it. It caused great dispute and division at the time, traditional holiness folk separating themselves from the errors.

The problem with quoting scripture and arguing over it is that without holiness no man sees God which means he does not understand more than the basic levels of understanding the word. If a man is not seeking holiness then arguing scriptures with him is a waste of time and only adds to his condemnation.

There are men who say they are sinless and are not, but the doctrine should not be rejected because of the fakes. Some of the greatest, most prolific and respected of Christians throughout church history believed in the doctrine of holiness like Wesley.

To answer the verse from James 3 I quote Adam Clarke theologian

Some have produced these words as a proof that "no man can live without sinning against God; for James himself, a holy apostle speaking of himself, all the apostles, and the whole Church of Christ, says, In many things we offend all." This is a very bad and dangerous doctrine; and, pushed to its consequences, would greatly affect the credibility of the whole Gospel system. Besides, were the doctrine as true as it is dangerous and false, it is foolish to ground it upon such a text; because St. James, after the common mode of all teachers, includes himself in his addresses to his hearers. And were we to suppose that where he appears by the use of the plural pronoun to include himself, he means to be thus understood, we must then grant that himself was one of those many teachers who were to receive a great condemnation, James iii. 1; that he was a horse-breaker, because he says, "we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us," ver. 3; that his tongue was a world of iniquity, and set on fire of hell, for he says, "so is the tongue among our members," ver. 6; that he cursed men, "wherewith curse we men, ver. 9. No man possessing common sense could imagine that James, or any man of even tolerable morals, could be guilty of those things. But some of those were thus guilty to whom he wrote; and to soften his reproofs, and to cause them to enter the more deeply into their hearts, he appears to include himself in his own censure; and yet not one of his readers would understand him as being a brother delinquent.