Sanctified and Justified

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Rex

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Your right Wesley and Clark are revered by Pentecostals as being the founders of the movement.


As I suspect everyone or nearly everyone that is rooted in this teaching have been taught or exposed to the Pentecostal doctrine.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Jan 6, 2012
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Rex said:
Remarkably enough I find that this teaching has its roots in the Pentecostal movement, those that believe in evidence of tongues as proof of the HS.

The Dangers of "Sinless Perfection" Doctrine
By Reese Currie, Compass Distributors

..

Closing Words.
Those who think they have attained "sinless perfection" are the most unfortunate of us all. Not only do they remain sinners, contrary to their claim, but because they refuse to admit their sinfulness, they cannot avail themselves of Jesus Christ through repentance, to forgive them and to help them do better.
That's a good post Rex. +1

In relation to the closing words:

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41
 
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Rex

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's a good post Rex. +1

In relation to the closing words:

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41
Wonderful insight
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi Rex,

Last time you mentioned James and the tongue to me, I looked it up, and formulated a reply. This is not the reply.

James writes, "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). So, is James not saying here that a man can indeed be perfect? No, because only a few verses later, he comments, "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:8).
There are two things about sinless perfection to be drawn from James’ comments. First off, James is stating that no man can tame even the tongue to the point of perfection, let alone his whole body. Advocates of sinless perfection are calling James a liar and are calling the Scripture a lie in this instance.
The second thing to note is that James is using the example of a man being perfect as a ridiculous impossibility in his writing. He is stating that all men stumble in their words, and he says anyone who claims otherwise is claiming something as ridiculous as personal sinless perfection. Advocates of sinless perfection actually believe the very thing that James cites as a ridiculous, impossible example.
Certainly we should strive to tame the tongue. We should do the best we possibly can in all areas of life. But it is unrealistic to expect perfection when the Bible itself plainly says such perfection is impossible.
The forgoing quoted argument is just another example of a Christian choosing the verses which support their thesis. For if what he has said is what James intended us all to take away from his whole comment, why does James continue with:

James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Clearly James believes that a person in whom the fruit of the Holy Spirit is manifesting, can tame their tongue.
 

Rex

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dragonfly said:
Hi Rex,



Clearly James believes that a person in whom the fruit of the Holy Spirit is manifesting, can tame their tongue.
Keep reading

[SIZE=80%]9 [/SIZE]With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.[SIZE=80%]r[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]10 [/SIZE]Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. [SIZE=80%]11 [/SIZE]Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? [SIZE=80%]12 [/SIZE]My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs?[SIZE=80%]s[/SIZE] Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Whats he talking about here, he's talking about the new inter nature.

In the next verses what do we see? the result, just as the articel I posted mentioned. No mention of being perfect but leading a good life.
Could boasting about perfection be the result, It sertainly isn't what James teaches. Your taking the presintation to the subject and concluding it as a fact.
these things ought not so to be. That supports your perfect man subject.

Two Kinds of Wisdom
[SIZE=80%]13 [/SIZE]Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it[SIZE=80%]t[/SIZE] by their good life, by deeds[SIZE=80%]u[/SIZE] done in the humility that comes from wisdom. [SIZE=80%]14 [/SIZE]But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition[SIZE=80%]v[/SIZE] in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth.[SIZE=80%]w[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]15 [/SIZE]Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven[SIZE=80%]x[/SIZE] but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.[SIZE=80%]y[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]16 [/SIZE]For where you have envy and selfish ambition,[SIZE=80%]z[/SIZE] there you find disorder and every evil practice.
[SIZE=80%]17 [/SIZE]But the wisdom that comes from heaven[SIZE=80%]a[/SIZE] is first of all pure; then peace-loving,[SIZE=80%]b[/SIZE] considerate, submissive, full of mercy[SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE] and good fruit, impartial and sincere.[SIZE=80%]d[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]18 [/SIZE]Peacemakers[SIZE=80%]e[/SIZE] who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.[SIZE=80%]f[/SIZE]

Jesus said it so well: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Luke 5:32). And yet, the Bible says no one is righteous:
 

IanLC

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Mar 22, 2011
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I just do not believe in justification and sanctification being the same both are part of salvation. I do not believe salvation is a destination or state of arrival it is constantly being worked in us by the Holy Spirit and the Word of the Lord. Sanctification is the continual process of we as believers being cleasned and washed from our old nature that should be daily dieing and living in the new nature which is renewed and more elivened daily as we walk with Jesus. Sanctiifcation is not only donts it does as well. Sanctification is how we possess the salvation we profess. Its the beauty of God's holiness being worked in us and is a process and we mature in it. When we do not willingly sin against God or our fellow man we act in love for daily we die to ourselves and take up the resurrected life we have in Jesus! The gospel is life changing and transforming from the inside "inner man" and outside. For in CHrist Jesus there is no darkness and if we still live in sin with grace we thus take it for granted and nullify it! Holiness is the lifestyle God commands for His Church who are His called OUT ones. Out of sin into salvation, out of death into life, out of godlessness into godliness out of unrighteousness into righteousness because of CHrist Jesus! The only way we can live a life not only saved from the penalty of sin but delivered from the practice and power of sin is through the Holy Ghost!
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phillippians 1:6)
"He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:8)
"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all; If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth." (1 John 1:5-6)
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phillipians 2:12)
"Follow peace with all men and holiness; for without holiness no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14)
 

Rex

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I don't see a verse that teaches we become perfct sinless beings in all that you wrote.
It's pretty easy to do word searches anymore like the word sanctified or grace or holy.

The same goes with sinless.

Heb 10:10
Heb 10:10 KJV
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

Many are called but few are chosen.
Feb 23, 2013
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Rex said:
Remarkably enough I find that this teaching has its roots in the Pentecostal movement, those that believe in evidence of tongues as proof of the HS.

The Dangers of "Sinless Perfection" Doctrine
By Reese Currie, Compass Distributors
I’ve been receiving an increased volume of e-mail lately from proponents of "sinless perfection" doctrine in response to my article, "Can We Live Sin Free?" None of these supposedly sinless folks offer any argumentation from the Bible, since the doctrine they espouse can’t be found there, but yet they seem quite concerned that I’m doing terrible things to peoples’ Christian walk in maintaining that humans never attain sinless perfection. I am, according to one writer, "an agent of Satan" holding back the true believers in Christ, and should "seek God and be taught of Him."
Obviously, another article on this is required, since the first, although quite laden with Biblical facts on the matter, does not dissuade these people from e-mailing me to label me a heretic, unknowledgeable, and "Satan’s agent." So, I offer these facts about people who advocate "sinless perfection."
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Believe the Bible.
James writes, "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). So, is James not saying here that a man can indeed be perfect? No, because only a few verses later, he comments, "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:8).
There are two things about sinless perfection to be drawn from James’ comments. First off, James is stating that no man can tame even the tongue to the point of perfection, let alone his whole body. Advocates of sinless perfection are calling James a liar and are calling the Scripture a lie in this instance.
The second thing to note is that James is using the example of a man being perfect as a ridiculous impossibility in his writing. He is stating that all men stumble in their words, and he says anyone who claims otherwise is claiming something as ridiculous as personal sinless perfection. Advocates of sinless perfection actually believe the very thing that James cites as a ridiculous, impossible example.
Certainly we should strive to tame the tongue. We should do the best we possibly can in all areas of life. But it is unrealistic to expect perfection when the Bible itself plainly says such perfection is impossible.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Have the Same Religion as the Early Church
Look carefully at the first part of James 3:2. It says, "For we all stumble in many things." The "we" here refers to Christians. James is identifying himself with "all" the Christians he writes to, stating directly that neither he, nor they, are perfect. "We all stumble in many things." Since advocates of sinless perfection do not believe they stumble in anything, they disassociate themselves from James—and they are therefore not a part of the Christian religion. James was inarguably a part of the Christian religion, but advocates of sinless perfection refuse to be included in James’ comments toward all Christians, including himself.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Are Spiritually Dead.
People who think they are sinless are obviously experiencing no conviction for sin whatsoever. They believe themselves to be perfect in every way and incapable of sinning. Scripture has already demonstrated that people who do not believe they are sinning are mistaken. In fact, Scripture paints a bleak picture for anyone who is under the delusion that they are without sin.
1John 1:8 states simply, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." People who are oblivious to the fact that they still have sin do not have the Spirit of truth within them. There is no light shining to expose the darkness of their souls.
There is sin in everyone, but how can we explain that a subculture within Christendom, the "sinless perfection" crowd, feels no conviction for the sin they have whatsoever? It is easily explained. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."
The Holy Spirit convicts the real children of God for their sins. But fakes, even if they do not realize they are fakes, receive no conviction because, since they are not God’s sons, God does not discipline them.
Two points here point definitively to a condition of spiritual death for people who believe in sinless perfection. First, the truth does not reside in people who say they have no sin. Second, people who never feel conviction for their sins have never been adopted by the Father; they may think they are sons, but they are not.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Refuse to Repent of Present Sin.
1John 1:8-10 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
The very act of claiming to be sinless is a sin in itself, as this Scripture so ably demonstrates. A person claiming not to have sin deceives himself or herself, and in effect calls Christ a liar.
Being cleared of sin is so simple! All we have to do is confess that we have sinned, and our sin is forgiven and we are cleansed of our unrighteousness. The problem is, a person who considers himself or herself to be sinless cannot confess sin. To confess sinning would run contrary to their belief that they have sinless perfection. So, because they will not admit that they are indeed sinners, they cannot have the forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is for Sinners, Not for the Sinless.
Jesus said it so well: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Luke 5:32). And yet, the Bible says no one is righteous: "As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one;’" (Romans 3:10). So what did Jesus mean? He meant He did not come for people who claimed to be righteous, He came for those who knew they were sinners. He did not come for the self-righteous; He came for those who would repent, knowing that they needed Him.
Some correspondents have accused me of encouraging Christians to keep on sinning since they cannot be "perfect" and "sinless." It isn’t my aim to make people sin, but it is my aim to make people recognize reality: they will never be perfect as long as they have a "flesh" component. Unless people will confess this, they have no need of Jesus—and will not get to have Him.
The Struggle is the Proof of Salvation.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:18-25).
As long as any person has flesh, that flesh will be serving sin. It will always be warring against the spiritual mind. We will be delivered from this sin completely only when we are delivered from "this body of death." It is only at that point that the Christian is "completely sanctified."
The absence of this struggle between body and soul means that the body has won and the soul is actually given over to sinfulness. The flesh does not become justified! So if the struggle between body and soul ends, it can only be because the flesh has won.
Closing Words.
Those who think they have attained "sinless perfection" are the most unfortunate of us all. Not only do they remain sinners, contrary to their claim, but because they refuse to admit their sinfulness, they cannot avail themselves of Jesus Christ through repentance, to forgive them and to help them do better.

What an INDICTMENT!!
 

IanLC

Member
Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
862
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North Carolina
Rex said:
I don't see a verse that teaches we become perfct sinless beings in all that you wrote.
It's pretty easy to do word searches anymore like the word sanctified or grace or holy.

The same goes with sinless.


Heb 10:10
Heb 10:10 KJV
Did I ever say that I supported sinless perfection? No for no man is perfect only CHrist Jesus is! Yet Jesus commands that His CHurch while walking in Grace walks in a lifestyle of holiness. Not of our own merit of working but by His righteousness imputed in us that leads us by faith to produce works that are a product or fruit of our genuine faith in Him!
Too many so called "professing" believers take God's grace for granted and make the issue of sin small or take it lightly and look at holiness as radical or unimportant. ANd then their are those who are so spiritually ignorant thinking that holiness is not required for God's people. And then the camp of those who are legalistic that place human limits and halts on holiness and what it is to be holy. The truth I am trying to get across is that genuine belife produces action. We believe in a Holy Christ, are indwelled witht the HOLY Spirit and read the HOLY Bible and thus we should live holy as a result. True salvation is not only professing Jesus but possessing the lifestyle of Jesus. Does our walk match our talk? Our profession match our possession? There is no excuse not to live holy for we have the WOrd of God, the work of Jesus and the Holy Writ to aid us in our Christian journey.
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11)
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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Rex said:
Remarkably enough I find that this teaching has its roots in the Pentecostal movement, those that believe in evidence of tongues as proof of the HS.

The Dangers of "Sinless Perfection" Doctrine
By Reese Currie, Compass Distributors
I’ve been receiving an increased volume of e-mail lately from proponents of "sinless perfection" doctrine in response to my article, "Can We Live Sin Free?" None of these supposedly sinless folks offer any argumentation from the Bible, since the doctrine they espouse can’t be found there, but yet they seem quite concerned that I’m doing terrible things to peoples’ Christian walk in maintaining that humans never attain sinless perfection. I am, according to one writer, "an agent of Satan" holding back the true believers in Christ, and should "seek God and be taught of Him."
Obviously, another article on this is required, since the first, although quite laden with Biblical facts on the matter, does not dissuade these people from e-mailing me to label me a heretic, unknowledgeable, and "Satan’s agent." So, I offer these facts about people who advocate "sinless perfection."
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Believe the Bible.
James writes, "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). So, is James not saying here that a man can indeed be perfect? No, because only a few verses later, he comments, "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:8).
There are two things about sinless perfection to be drawn from James’ comments. First off, James is stating that no man can tame even the tongue to the point of perfection, let alone his whole body. Advocates of sinless perfection are calling James a liar and are calling the Scripture a lie in this instance.
The second thing to note is that James is using the example of a man being perfect as a ridiculous impossibility in his writing. He is stating that all men stumble in their words, and he says anyone who claims otherwise is claiming something as ridiculous as personal sinless perfection. Advocates of sinless perfection actually believe the very thing that James cites as a ridiculous, impossible example.
Certainly we should strive to tame the tongue. We should do the best we possibly can in all areas of life. But it is unrealistic to expect perfection when the Bible itself plainly says such perfection is impossible.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Do Not Have the Same Religion as the Early Church
Look carefully at the first part of James 3:2. It says, "For we all stumble in many things." The "we" here refers to Christians. James is identifying himself with "all" the Christians he writes to, stating directly that neither he, nor they, are perfect. "We all stumble in many things." Since advocates of sinless perfection do not believe they stumble in anything, they disassociate themselves from James—and they are therefore not a part of the Christian religion. James was inarguably a part of the Christian religion, but advocates of sinless perfection refuse to be included in James’ comments toward all Christians, including himself.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Are Spiritually Dead.
People who think they are sinless are obviously experiencing no conviction for sin whatsoever. They believe themselves to be perfect in every way and incapable of sinning. Scripture has already demonstrated that people who do not believe they are sinning are mistaken. In fact, Scripture paints a bleak picture for anyone who is under the delusion that they are without sin.
1John 1:8 states simply, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." People who are oblivious to the fact that they still have sin do not have the Spirit of truth within them. There is no light shining to expose the darkness of their souls.
There is sin in everyone, but how can we explain that a subculture within Christendom, the "sinless perfection" crowd, feels no conviction for the sin they have whatsoever? It is easily explained. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."
The Holy Spirit convicts the real children of God for their sins. But fakes, even if they do not realize they are fakes, receive no conviction because, since they are not God’s sons, God does not discipline them.
Two points here point definitively to a condition of spiritual death for people who believe in sinless perfection. First, the truth does not reside in people who say they have no sin. Second, people who never feel conviction for their sins have never been adopted by the Father; they may think they are sons, but they are not.
Advocates of Sinless Perfection Refuse to Repent of Present Sin.
1John 1:8-10 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
The very act of claiming to be sinless is a sin in itself, as this Scripture so ably demonstrates. A person claiming not to have sin deceives himself or herself, and in effect calls Christ a liar.
Being cleared of sin is so simple! All we have to do is confess that we have sinned, and our sin is forgiven and we are cleansed of our unrighteousness. The problem is, a person who considers himself or herself to be sinless cannot confess sin. To confess sinning would run contrary to their belief that they have sinless perfection. So, because they will not admit that they are indeed sinners, they cannot have the forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is for Sinners, Not for the Sinless.
Jesus said it so well: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Luke 5:32). And yet, the Bible says no one is righteous: "As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one;’" (Romans 3:10). So what did Jesus mean? He meant He did not come for people who claimed to be righteous, He came for those who knew they were sinners. He did not come for the self-righteous; He came for those who would repent, knowing that they needed Him.
Some correspondents have accused me of encouraging Christians to keep on sinning since they cannot be "perfect" and "sinless." It isn’t my aim to make people sin, but it is my aim to make people recognize reality: they will never be perfect as long as they have a "flesh" component. Unless people will confess this, they have no need of Jesus—and will not get to have Him.
The Struggle is the Proof of Salvation.
When we are saved, a battle begins between our saved soul and our unsaved body. Paul writes of this battle that continues within us even after our salvation, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:18-25).
As long as any person has flesh, that flesh will be serving sin. It will always be warring against the spiritual mind. We will be delivered from this sin completely only when we are delivered from "this body of death." It is only at that point that the Christian is "completely sanctified."
The absence of this struggle between body and soul means that the body has won and the soul is actually given over to sinfulness. The flesh does not become justified! So if the struggle between body and soul ends, it can only be because the flesh has won.
Closing Words.
Those who think they have attained "sinless perfection" are the most unfortunate of us all. Not only do they remain sinners, contrary to their claim, but because they refuse to admit their sinfulness, they cannot avail themselves of Jesus Christ through repentance, to forgive them and to help them do better.
Pretty much right on per God's Word and Apostle Paul's Epistles.
 

logabe

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NetChaplain said:
I believe born again includes sanctification unto justification (1 Cor 6:11). Many have the idea that sanctification is an ongoing process, but it involves a single act which never needs to be repeated. Same as salvation, which is eternal, or it isn’t salvation (Heb 5:9).

The believer is maturing or being conformed continually but it's not through sanctification, which has already taken place, "For both He that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one" (Heb 2:11).

Everything from Christ (sanctification, justification, righteousness, holiness, etc.) is fully supplied to the believer (2 Pet 1:3) and it's now a matter of the maturation from these things. They are all-inclusive in our salvation which now has become a matter of "working out your own salvation" (Phil 2:12); again, not to produce these things (already supplied) but to mature in them. The idea of "working out" has to do with figuring out, as in understanding by learning an equation which has been solved.

Once the believer has been "set apart" (sanctification), it becomes solely a matter of conformation (Rom 8:29) and transformation (Rom 12:2)--which are ongoing processes by the Spirit of God.
-NC
God justifies us when we believe on the blood of the Lamb. That doesn't mean
you are innocent, but it means someone has paid your sin debt. In this case it is
Jesus. You were guilty and Jesus qualified to pay for your debt by becoming your
Redeemer. In other words, He redeemed your debt and now you owe Him your
life. You were imputed righteous, because you believe the account that God
gave of his son, and that activates your justification. God calls you righteous
although you still have death inside of you called the carnal mind.

The carnal mind, or as Paul calls it, "the Old Man", is what we have to overcome in
order to be chosen by God in leadership. Paul says, we have to press into the "High
Calling", of God. The high calling is not about your salvation, but it is learning the
ways of God by submitting to God's Spirit.

Sanctification is the process God uses to bring us into obedience to the Spirit. We
cut covenant with God when we believe, and God covers us with the blood of Jesus,
when He sees our faith. In essense, God has signed a contract with you saying, I will
make you an Overcomer.

Many are called, but few are chosen. Why? If you don't allow God to work inside, you
will have to await the 2nd resurrection. You will miss the 1st resurrection (Rev. 20:6),
but if you allow God to change you, you will be part of that chosen generation that Peter
spoke of in 1st Peter 2:9.

The purpose of sanctification is to qualify you as a leader in the kingdom of God. When
you are imputed righteous, it is God giving you the opportunity to be exposed to the Spirit
of God, until you can mature enough, and become trustworthy to the things of God. When
you begin to show God you are worthy by your actions, it is no longer imputed to you, but
imputation is being taken over by actual righteousness. Now, you are actually being set
apart for the Master's use, because you have allowed God to work inside of you (Rom. 8:
28).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

Netchaplain

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logabe said:
God justifies us when we believe on the blood of the Lamb.

That doesn't mean you are innocent, but it means someone has paid your sin debt.

The carnal mind, or as Paul calls it, "the Old Man", is what we have to overcome in order to be chosen by God in leadership.
Hi Lagabe - I agree with your concept concerning the goal (be used of God to lead) but My concept differs concerning others you've included.

The only debt the believer has is to "love one another" and that's summarizes everything concerning the believer and God, because salvation is a gift, not something to owe for. The believer's sins are atoned for out of unconditional love and did not incur a debt for it.

Though believer's still posses the sin nature ("old man") he is not after it (Rom 6:12, 14), but after the Spirit in his new nature ("new man") and therefore can be carnal (1Cor 3:1) but not "carnal minded (which would be death--Rom 8:6)," which is one who is unregenerate (not born again); nor is he guilty of the sin nature (innocent). You may be referring to the idea that the believer is forgiven of his sins (1 John 1:9) but the sin itself is not forgiven, because something God has irrevocably condemned (Rom 8:3) cannot be forgiven.

I believe your post brings up a few good points. The old man has already been overcome and the believer just lives according to the Spirit, who guides him because He restrains the old man so we can be guided (Gal 5:17).

Not suspecting you of this, but many needlessly strive for sinlessness (though in position we are, but not in our condition). God does not require it, nor is it necessary, because the Lord Jesus atoned for it.

God's blessings to your Family!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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logabe said:
Many are called, but few are chosen. Why? If you don't allow God to work inside, you will have to await the 2nd resurrection. You will miss the 1st resurrection (Rev. 20:6), but if you allow God to change you, you will be part of that chosen generation that Peter spoke of in 1st Peter 2:9.
Do you believe that all christians will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection, or that some will not be resurrected until the 2nd one.
 

Wormwood

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What if the first resurrection takes place at baptism and a persons salvation. After all, isn't that when we are "raised with Christ" and are "born from above?"
 

logabe

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NetChaplain said:
Hi Lagabe - I agree with your concept concerning the goal (be used of God to lead) but My concept differs concerning others you've included.


The only debt the believer has is to "love one another" and that's summarizes everything concerning the believer and God, because salvation is a gift, not something to owe for. The believer's sins are atoned for out of unconditional love and did not incur a debt for it.

I am not talking about salvation... I am talking about santification, which is, the vehicle
to becoming an Overcomer that Jesus spoke to the churches (not unbelievers) in Rev.
2 & 3. He said, the ones that Overcome will be a pillar, he will give them power over the
nations, and sit with him in his throne, just to name a few.

As for as debt, my point in a sense is, we become bondslaves of Jesus until we mature
and become friends @ Pentecost (John 15:14-15). God's slavery is alot different than
man's slavery. A slave has no choice, so they are humble, and they become obedient to
the Master's will.

When biblical slavery is practiced in a lawful manner by the mind of Christ, it results in
godly discipline and training, resulting in full spiritual maturity as Sons of God. In other
words, Kingdom slavery is beneficial to the slave, because it is ministered by the second
great law, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

A selfish master uses slaves to benefit himself. A loving master uses slaves to increase
the scope of the Kingdom of God and to spread it's love worldwide.

In Ex. 21:5-6, we find the bondslave returning to the master because he loves him. So
the master bores a hole in his ear and attaches it to the door. When the slave's ear is
opened by the awl, he is joined to the Door, which is Jesus Christ (John 10:9). In fact,
those who are truly in Christ, hear his voice and obey him (John 10:3).
Though believer's still posses the sin nature ("old man") he is not after it (Rom 6:12, 14), but after the Spirit in his new nature ("new man") and therefore can be carnal (1Cor 3:1) but not "carnal minded (which would be death--Rom 8:6)," which is one who is unregenerate (not born again); nor is he guilty of the sin nature (innocent). You may be referring to the idea that the believer is forgiven of his sins (1 John 1:9) but the sin itself is not forgiven, because something God has irrevocably condemned (Rom 8:3) cannot be forgiven.

I believe your post brings up a few good points. The old man has already been overcome and the believer just lives according to the Spirit, who guides him because He restrains the old man so we can be guided (Gal 5:17).

Not suspecting you of this, but many needlessly strive for sinlessness (though in position we are, but not in our condition). God does not require it, nor is it necessary, because the Lord Jesus atoned for it.

God's blessings to your Family!
 

aspen

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Justification - God loves us and forgives us

Sanctification - God teaches us how to love Him and His creation as we were originally created to do.


No need to complicate things.
 

logabe

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Do you believe that all christians will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection, or that some will not be resurrected until the 2nd one.
No... I believe most Christians will be raised in the 2nd resurrection. Let me tell you why.

When Jesus said, wide is the gate and broad is way that leads to destruction, and many
there be that find it, because strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life,
and few there be that find it. What was he talking about?

First we have to understand... Jesus was talking about "The Great Rest that was to come
upon the earth on the seventh day of history". We are approaching that day, which we
call, "the Tabernacles Age". It is where Jesus gives the ones that Overcome a position in
His government upon this earth. They will rule and reign under the authority of Jesus and
they will be responsible for bringing the Great Commission to the rest of the nations.

In order to be a part of this Great thousand year reign, you must learn how God want's
you to treat His people. It's not about being perfect, but it's about learning the ways of God
so you can become mature to the things of God and His Kingdom. That's where sanctification
comes in. It's not you working to do something for God, it is you learning how to submit to
the Spirit of God. In other words, you can't take the credit for anything that God is working
in your life. Why? Because you are MORTAL!

As you grow in Grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, you become responsible for the
things you know. At the same time, you have to stay humble before God, and you can't allow
your knowledge that God has given you to puff you up. You have to constantly remember that
it is God giving you the opportunity to be an Overcomer. You can't be an Overcomer without
God, because the gate is too wide and the way is too broad.

Peter tells us that we have to partake of the divine nature. In essense, we have to reach out
and put ourselves in the position to receive from God. As we begin to understand that God has
exceeding Great and Precious Promises and by these you might be partakers of the divine nature
2nd Peter 1:4. In other words, when you begin to understand God's will and plan, it will put hope
inside and motivate you to do the things of God natually. IT WILL BECOME YOUR NATURE, when
you see the Great Age where God restores all things (Acts 3:21).

God has promised us that there will be a day when he begins to restore all things. The question is,
do we want to live in that day, or do we want to live this life our way, and miss the Great Age that
is upon us?

If you have truly had a Passover experience with Jesus Christ you are saved. I have had a Passover
experience, but I also see what God is doing and is going to do... and I want to be a part of it.

Paul said, I press toward the mark of the High Calling in Christ Jesus. What was he talking about?
Surely he was saved, but he knew he had to learn the ways of God in order to quaify for the next
Great Age, or he would be raised in a lesser resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6). The question that we should
ask ourselves is... do we want to be in that first resurrection, or, are we satisfied with where we are?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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logabe said:
No... I believe most Christians will be raised in the 2nd resurrection. Let me tell you why.
Doesn't this contradict what Paul said?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

He didn't say some of the dead in Christ. The notion of Christians not being in Christ is self-contradictory. It sounds like you are adding to GOD's word, and consequently changing its message.
 

Episkopos

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NetChaplain said:
I believe born again includes sanctification unto justification (1 Cor 6:11). Many have the idea that sanctification is an ongoing process, but it involves a single act which never needs to be repeated. Same as salvation, which is eternal, or it isn’t salvation (Heb 5:9).

The believer is maturing or being conformed continually but it's not through sanctification, which has already taken place, "For both He that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one" (Heb 2:11).

Everything from Christ (sanctification, justification, righteousness, holiness, etc.) is fully supplied to the believer (2 Pet 1:3) and it's now a matter of the maturation from these things. They are all-inclusive in our salvation which now has become a matter of "working out your own salvation" (Phil 2:12); again, not to produce these things (already supplied) but to mature in them. The idea of "working out" has to do with figuring out, as in understanding by learning an equation which has been solved.

Once the believer has been "set apart" (sanctification), it becomes solely a matter of conformation (Rom 8:29) and transformation (Rom 12:2)--which are ongoing processes by the Spirit of God.
-NC

Sanctification is both an initial infilling of the Spirit AND an ongoing process of learning to maintain a vessel unto honour. One can only be sanctified as being a vessel that contains the Holy Spirit. The maintaining the purity of a cleansed heart requires maturity in a character that is exercised unto godliness. What God gives us in purity (sanctification) must be maintained through faithfulness in a growing maturity unto the fulness of Christ (in sanctification).
 

logabe

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Doesn't this contradict what Paul said?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

He didn't say some of the dead in Christ. The notion of Christians not being in Christ is self-contradictory. It sounds like you are adding to GOD's word, and consequently changing its message.
Not at all... the key to understanding what Paul just said, is knowing what "in Christ" means.
When you believe on the Lord, he comes and resides inside of you, but in order for you to be
in Christ, you have to learn his ways, or Jesus will tell you to depart for I have never known you.
Why? Because you did it your way... you did what you thought was right in your lifetime, but
you were wrong.

Will God throw you away? No... He will raise you in the 2nd resurrection and correct your way
of life. You will lose your reward of the 1st resurrection and be raised with the unbelievers in the
2nd resurrection (Luke 12:46), because you didn't learn how to forgive.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe