Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
It does not have to go into being born again
It is assumed the son was already the fathers child
The father is God in heaven.
The child left.
A non believer has no inheritance from God.
"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.
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It is assumed the son was already the fathers child
The father is God in heaven.
The child left.
A non believer has no inheritance from God.
Cooper
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There's no limit on the number of times a lost sheep can wander astray.
Yet John also said this in that same epistle:
1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And this promise for all those that sin;
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I do not agree. The truth is, a believer should not live in sin nor walk in darkness but look to Jesus for forgiveness & help to stop sinning in following Him daily in walking in the light in having that fellowship with the Father & the Son.
Right. If someone believes they are not living in sin when they are walking in darkness, they will not ask Jesus for forgiveness let alone His help in living a life of repentance to abide in Him & His words to be fruitful and to have their joy full and thus at risk of being cut off or left behind when the Bridegroom comes John 15:1-8 But He still calls them His servants for why they are getting stripes for not being ready per Luke 12:40-49 .
Not so. This is why believers are warned about sowing to the works of the flesh for they will reap corruption. Those that are spiritual are to minister unto them.
Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden. 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
So when a brother is caught in a trespass, we do not condemn him as not saved, but correct him, and if need be, excommunicate him in the hopes God will lead him to repentance, but Jesus will get that lost sheep even if they get left behind as excommunicated from Him. Matthew 18:10-17
2 Timothy 2:11-13
Given that this forum uses the ESV, I will have to show it in the KJV for where I am coming from.
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. KJV
So if a former believer denies Him, He will deny them, but even if we believe not, He still abides because He is faithful; He cannot deny Himself in us.
How do you apply that to mean even when comparing with the ESV below?
2 Timothy 2:11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us; 3 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. ESV
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
commiting a sin and living in sin is not the same
John said whoever sin has never seen or known God. Whoever has been born in f God can not sin
now either John contradicted himself or he is speaking of ongoing habitual sin as many believe
I never said any different so not sure if your point
a believer walks in the spirit and in the love of God. That’s how they live righteous lives
A believer can not live in sin so again not sure of your point
a non believer repents if his guilt and falls on God. Then through learning to walk in the love of God grows in righteousness living
Please read what I said again you evidently did not understand me
Think of those professing believers left behind in missing out on the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event for why they are still His sons.
I've read all Paul's writings and they all agree with each other.
I already answered earlier that I was saved, now at this moment. What is it you are looking for?LOL...
QUESTION...Are you saved?
Possible Answer...no <— 2 letters
Possible Answer...yes <—- 3 letters
Your answer .... 20 letters of vagueness.
Yes, and I've read it all multiple times and never found irresistible salvation that can't be discarded. I found lots of clear warning about not falling away from Christ, however.
Yes, he warned genuine Christians that if they if they went back to the law, Christ would be of no use to them.
But James was not talking about saving faith but the abuse of the church towards the poor by the church professing the church's faith in God's Providence to the poor after church service just to get out of helping the poor. The church was being mean for why James rebuked them that they should lead by example, otherwise the church's faith in God's Providence uttered to the poor will not "profit" nor "save" the poor when the poor sees the church's faith in His Providence as dead by the church not leading by example.
But that is not the whole truth because John did not address their fate for when they die. Paul addressed that in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 John singled those going out from us as not abiding in Him for why they are not of us for us to follow them.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Heresy is a work of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ) as that is a work that can deny Him. Any work of the flesh on that foundation, defiles the temple of God for why God will deal with it in finishing His work in them too (Philippians 1:6 ), in burning it off of that foundation so that they may be partakers of His holiness even though left behind as disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven for not abiding in Him & is words ( John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 )
As you can see how a carnal believer, by his work of iniquity, is denying Him, so He will deny him, but I agree that they are still saved just as a former believer is which is why even they are still called to depart from iniquity in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 as that foundation & seal is sure.
If you consider how there are former believers because of the false science, the evolution theory, what would be your task there? To preach the gospel when they already know it? Or to expose the lie that is the evolution theory so the Lord can recover him from that snare of the devil?
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
So the former believers that believed the lie that the resurrection had passed already, needs scripture to prove otherwise.
Could they be misled by that false teaching that was taking this reference below out of context?
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
It is possible but hopefully you can see how a heresy can cause a believer to go astray and why as former believers like carnal believers, they are still saved because of that heresy on that foundation for why they do not believe any more & are denying Him because of it.
So like carnal believers, former believers need correction by the scripture to see their need of Jesus's help in forgiveness & repentance.
To be precise, an unbeliever that never had believed in Jesus Christ has never been saved.
Jesus still abides in former believers for why they and carnal believers are still called to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.
And still be called son regardless, even if they miss out on the first fruits of the resurrection for why some saints gets left behind for living the wild life. They cannot be partakers of that first inheritance ( vessels of gold & silver ) any more once that door is shut, but that is why they are still sons bas vessels of wood & earth that did not depart from iniquity and yet still in His House. 2 Timothy 2:18-21 Note verses 20-21
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
They would be professing believers only. not true believers
and they would not be sons so the prodigal son does not relate
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yep
which means they were never saved christ was no use to the
as a dog they returned to their
Vomit. Because they remained dogs. Winces in sheeps clothing not believers just Make believers
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Believers in ongoing habitual sin without repentance are to be marked but still called to depart from iniquity.
John only marked those not abiding in Him so other saints do not follow them. Example in context; bold in verse 10
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Verse 8 shows the necessity for any habitual sinning believer to place all their hopes in Christ. Those who try to keep a commitment or a promise or look to themselves to overcome habitual sin will find themselves failing because they cannot do it, but Jesus can for why they are to rely on Him all the time to help them to follow Him as our confidence is in Him to finish His work in us to His glory ( Philippians 1:6-11 ).
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Just needing clarity so we understand where we are coming from to make sure we are progressing in this iron sharpen iron part of His ministry in this discussion.
Hopefully the Lord will get us on the same page in understanding where we are coming from even if it reaches the conclusion that we still disagree.
The reason I believe unrepentant carnal believers are still saved is because of this reference for why He warns believers not to sow to the flesh les they reap corruption.
2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
But James was not talking about saving faith but the abuse of the church towards the poor by the church professing the church's faith in God's Providence to the poor after church service just to get out of helping the poor. The church was being mean for why James rebuked them that they should lead by example, otherwise the church's faith in God's Providence uttered to the poor will not "profit" nor "save" the poor when the poor sees the church's faith in His Providence as dead by the church not leading by example.
James was talking about a specific kind of faith; the faith in God's Providence, that the church was using in saying to the departing poor to get out of helping the poor. James even referred to Abraham and Isaac for proof that he was just talking about the faith in God's Providence as that story is all about the faith in God providing for His servants as that name of place is called Jehovah-jireh for that point & purpose for that reference by James.
Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
If you read at the beginning, you can see how mean the church was being to the poor as James was correcting them on that too.
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Note how James still addressed them as "my brethren" even though they were mistreating the poor and applying faith in God's providence to the poor just to get out of helping the poor after church service. By referring to the story about Abraham & Isaac is proof James was just talking about the faith in God's Providence so that when the church says that to the poor, the church should lead by example by meeting the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from starvation & the elements from the bounty collected at church service. By not doing that for the poor, the church's verbal faith in God's Providence was not going to "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor seeing how the church's faith in God' s Providence was dead in the eyes of the poor.
James was talking about a specific kind of faith; the faith in God's Providence, that the church was using in saying to the departing poor to get out of helping the poor. James even referred to Abraham and Isaac for proof that he was just talking about the faith in God's Providence as that story is all about the faith in God providing for His servants as that name of place is called Jehovah-jireh for that point & purpose for that reference by James.
Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
If you read at the beginning, you can see how mean the church was being to the poor as James was correcting them on that too.
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Note how James still addressed them as "my brethren" even though they were mistreating the poor and applying faith in God's providence to the poor just to get out of helping the poor after church service. By referring to the story about Abraham & Isaac is proof James was just talking about the faith in God's Providence so that when the church says that to the poor, the church should lead by example by meeting the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from starvation & the elements from the bounty collected at church service. By not doing that for the poor, the church's verbal faith in God's Providence was not going to "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor seeing how the church's faith in God' s Providence was dead in the eyes of the poor.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Not sure how you apply carnal believers then when you believe they are still saved because by their works they are denying Him.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Note the word reprobate as in disqualified. That is what happens for why they are not accepted at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven. They lost the race for that high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House, but not salvation for why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity in being ready for the Bridegroom when He comes. 2 Timothy 2:18-21
Remember the parable of the ten virgins? Matthew 25:1-13 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto those ten virgins. What does that mean? I'd say the ten virgins are of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it was the five that were foolish for being out to the market and thus not being ready for the Bridegroom & shut out, but they are still in that kingdom of heaven. They just missed out on the Bridegroom's reception in that kingdom of heaven.
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