AN ANALYSIS OF GOD'S MISSION OF SALVATION

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soberxp

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But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

This is a discussion and I am not looking to be critical of what others believe. I will be asking questions as in….What do you think or believe and feel free to make statements. Free exchange of ideas and beliefs.

We start here….God loves us….
But why did He wait until then to initiate the salvation of mankind?

God loves while we were yet sinners? I am saying there is change here. In the OT God seemed to have no tolerance for sin or sinners. And no real possibility of salvation. Am I right or wrong? What do you think?
It’s not about right or wrong but about a misunderstanding in your perspective.

Israel is a seed, and God wants this seed to grow and flourish. To ensure its growth, God removed the weeds around it—but He didn’t uproot all the weeds in the world.

God commanded Israel to destroy certain nations, and Israel had to obey, or else they would be guilty of sin. However, God never told Israel to wipe out all the Gentiles in the world.

Moreover, at that time, Israel could offer animal sacrifices to repent for their sins—these were sin offerings.

God is slowly working out His plan, which He has meticulously prepared in advance. You could say God is a perfectionist—details matter to Him, and details matter determine everything."

Hope this helps you.
 
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soberxp

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Can God save everyone if He wants to?
The Gospel of Matthew
19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


The Gospel of Mark
9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
 

Jack

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The Gospel of Matthew
19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


The Gospel of Mark
9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Not sure how that answers my question.

"Can God save everyone if He wants to?"
 

soberxp

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Not sure how that answers my question.

"Can God save everyone if He wants to?"
With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
 

Jack

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With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
But He said BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell forever! It will happen.
 

soberxp

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But He said BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell forever! It will happen.
That's just a possibility,

Only God holds the future. Our task is to walk humbly, pray fervently, and love unconditionally—leaving outcomes to Him.

"Why should we impose or predefine such possibilities for others?"
 

Jack

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That's just a possibility,
No it is not! God said it will happen. It's impossible for Him to lie!
Only God holds the future.
And He told us about the future.
Our task is to walk humbly, pray fervently, and love unconditionally—leaving outcomes to Him.

"Why should we impose or predefine such possibilities for others?"
Jesus said ONLY a FEW will find eternal life! He cannot lie!
 

soberxp

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No it is not! God said it will happen. It's impossible for Him to lie!

And He told us about the future.

Jesus said ONLY a FEW will find eternal life! He cannot lie!
If you can ask this question, you're not the few who found the road to life.
 

Jack

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If you can ask this question, you're not the few who found the road to life.
IOW, you're saying God/Jesus lied when He said only a FEW will find eternal life!

MT 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.
 

quietthinker

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To improve our relationship with Yahweh we had to kill His Son? Why?
So what do you think guys?
Most explanations point to a perfect sacrifice.
What do you think?
Does a sacrifices normally include gruesome torture?
Gruesome torture by those that God was trying to save.
Was it the suffering of Christ that saved us?
Was it being nailed to the cross that saved us?
Was it His death that saved us?
Was it His blood that saved us?
Was it His resurrection that saved us?
Was this the plan all along?
It is God's love that saves us. He allowed us to kill him so we could see what is in our hearts and he allowed us to kill him so we could see what is in his heart.
It is our feelings of being threatened by God's love that motivates us to kill him. How do I know this? We only need to look at how we relate to others.
Any threat perceived or real generates retaliation by us. Jesus addresses this for us to reflect on, he say's 'what you have done to the least, you have done it to me'.
 

Papa Smurf

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God loves us….
But why did He wait until then to initiate the salvation of mankind?
In the OT God seemed to have no tolerance for sin or sinners. And no real possibility of salvation.
Hello Grailhunter, what some refer to as "the scarlet thread of redemption" began in the Garden of God (e.g. Genesis 3:21), right after our first parents sinned. As others have already mentioned however, this was God's plan all along, from eternity past, IOW.

As far as OT salvation goes, the Scriptures tell us that there were many who received salvation from God in the distant past, long before the Lord Jesus walked among us as a man and died on the Cross on our behalf. This salvation (of OT saints) was made possible because God chose to pass over the sins that they committed, allowing them to go unpunished until the one and only Sacrifice that could truly redeem them & save them from their sins was finally available to do so .. e.g. Romans 3:25).

As far as examples (of salvation in the OT) go, here's the first one that comes to mind.
Genesis 15
6 [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Then, later in the OT, we find King David, who was guilty of 1st degree murder and adultery, as you know, saying this to God concering his salvation,
Psalm 51
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from Thy presence, O Lord, and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; and uphold me with Thy free spirit.

David knew he had been forgiven by God .. 2 Samuel 12:13 (and knew that he had the Holy Spirit and was still saved), but what he was missing & longed for, what He pleaded with God to return to him, was the "joy" and close fellowship that he had formerly enjoyed with God before he sinned.

I've gotta run, so talking about why the Lord waited until the "fullness of time came" .. Galatians 4:4-5 to send the Lord Jesus to us will have to wait for later.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

Hebrews 9
22 All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 10
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
 
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soberxp

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IOW, you're saying God/Jesus lied when He said only a FEW will find eternal life!

MT 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.
Don't jump to conclusions, listen to what I want to tell you. From Genesis, God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The sentence has never changed. It is clear from your words that you are trying to discern good from evil, and doing so means that you are not obeying God's Word. It means you didn't find your way. Jesus' words were certainly true. Jesus said the road was narrow and few found it. Didn't say anything else. It's your idea of good and evil that tells you something else. I don't know if you understand me.
 

Jack

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Don't jump to conclusions, listen to what I want to tell you. From Genesis, God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The sentence has never changed. It is clear from your words that you are trying to discern good from evil, and doing so means that you are not obeying God's Word. It means you didn't find your way. Jesus' words were certainly true. Jesus said the road was narrow and few found it. Didn't say anything else. It's your idea of good and evil that tells you something else. I don't know if you understand me.
Huh?
 
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soberxp

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"It is clear from your words that you are trying to discern good from evil, and doing so means that you are not obeying God's Word."
Do you not understand what I mean, or do you think I am distinguishing between good and evil? Or are you asking me the true meaning of this sentence?
 

Grailhunter

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No takers on the meaning and aspects of Christ crucifixion?
To improve our relationship with Yahweh we had to kill His Son? Why?
So what do you think guys?
Most explanations point to a perfect sacrifice.
What do you think?
Does a sacrifices normally include gruesome torture?
Gruesome torture by those that God was trying to save.
Was it the suffering of Christ that saved us?
Was it being nailed to the cross that saved us?
Was it His death that saved us?
Was it His blood that saved us?
Was it His resurrection that saved us?
Was this the plan all along?
 

Grailhunter

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Now this is an abbreviated account. If anybody would like to bring something up….please be my guest. Also this thread is about a friendly exchange of ideas and beliefs and questions for each other is fine….but not hard debate.

So here we are….it is after the crucifixion and Christ has resurrected and was walking and talking among them. Christ tells Peter…tend my lambs…shepherd my sheep. Then…

John 21…20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” 22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23

Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” 24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. 25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Just FYI…..Two Apostles wrote Gospels….Matthew and John are Apostles and Mark was the disciple of Peter and Luke was the disciple of Paul….Luke wrote Acts….The majority of the rest of the New Testament was written by Paul.

Moving into Acts….Read carefully there will be a test.
Acts 1:1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” 6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas. 12 BB Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer,

along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. 15 AA In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’
and,“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” 23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost….Pentecost a Christian and Jewish holiday…Chapter 2: The day of Pentecost (50) the fourth of the annual feasts of the Jews after Passover, Unleavened bread, and Firstfruits.

1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5 At the time there were God-fearing Jews staying in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard in their own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Why are all these speaking like Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappdocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome. 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

Continued....
 

Grailhunter

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Peter Addresses the Crowd.
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, and raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! (The third hour by Jewish reckoning.)16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay. CC Some Bibles has the word Hades in this verse.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

AA In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) It appears that the number of Jewish-Christians was about 120. Or are they only referring to the people present? Note: Non-Jewish convert had to be circumcised and follow various Mosaic Laws….various because not even full Jews could follow all of the them and still it is hard to say if the Jews and Jewish-Christian followed them to the same extent. And still converts were still not allowed in the Temple, instead they worshipped in the outer court Ezrat Cohanim. Of course women were not allowed in the Temple.

And it appears that Peter is asserting his authority as leader of the Apostles.

BB Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. Sabbath Day’s walk….a measurement of half a mile. The Mosaic Law only allowed Jews to travel half a mile on the Sabbath.

CC Some Bibles has the word Hades in this verse. The word Sheol would have been a better fit here, but they wanted to suggest Hell. Well that is a double edged problem….1. There is no word for Hell in this time period. Hell, 725 AD, Old English hel, helle, nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic haljō "the underworld" (source also of Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern")

So they borrowed the word Hades from the Greek, suggesting it is the eternal fiery place of torment ….The problem with that is…. Hades is a Greek god that presided over a realm of the same name ….Hades. It was one of the reasons that everybody in the New Testament was having difficulty referring to Hell….no word for it. And one of the reasons that today the easily confused do not believe there is one.

It is all just the tip of the iceberg called Christian Greek. Koiné Greek did not have Judeo-Christian religious terms….no reason for it have those terms….So Christian writers would take Greek words and change the definitions to include these terms and definitions….Christian Greek. For example: The Greek word for sin means you missed your target with your arrow….The Christian changed it to mean transgression against God.