SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[GracePeace]

Therefore, all professing Christians should heed the advice of Paul, and then take inventory through Rom. 8:8-9, of HOW each are STANDING by faith, according to 1 Cor. 2:5.
Is our personal faith standing by the wisdom of men or by the authority of the Holy Spirit and what he teaches?
The latter part of Rom.8:9 discerns in each of us, of who we each are, and to whom we belong.
"....if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Now, for all concerned, who would ever expect to hear the words: "depart from ye workers of iniquity", after spending their whole life "doing" many wonderful [good] works, coming in Jesus' name??

Well unfortunately, it will be those who did not HAVE the Spirit of Christ within them, because that was all that was required in the first place.
John 3:3-8, 16; Rev. 3:20.

1. So... still not addressing the passages.

2. Jesus is not contradicting Galatians 6. Not sure how this is unclear to you, but I will clarify it here and now (I don't run from Scripture, I address it head-on, like a man): Jesus finds fault with these FALSE PROPHETS, who mislead many by performing miracles, yet who are "workers of lawlessness". They are evildoers, despite performing miracles. Do you see the difference between the two? You're conflating the two--you're (whether intentionally or unintentionally) miscategorizing the good deeds which Paul says earn men eternal life at the coming judgment as if they're "miracles false prophets do" when they're clearly the good deeds false prophets DON'T do, which is the entire basis of Christ's objection to them.

Again, not sure how you could've gotten mixed up about this, but there it is laid out pretty clearly and simply--not sure how much more clear it can be made, but if you want it clarified any further, I can try.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

But....in your lack of willingness to understand, there is only that ONE sin that NEVER has forgiveness

ALL sin will land a person in hell.... unless the confess and forsake it do they can be cleaned of all un righteousness

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

All other sins, that are common to men, SHALL BE FORGIVEN.

I hear the universalists say this all the time...

All sin can be forgiven... but making the blanket statement that ALL sins will be forgiven is universalism and would mean nobody has to even be born again.... everyone is forgiven and going to heaven!

That's a false gospel and some other jesus... that's not the real Jesus of God's Word.

 

[Earburner]

1. So... still not addressing the passages.

2. Jesus is not contradicting Galatians 6. Not sure how this is unclear to you, but I will clarify it here and now (I don't run from Scripture, I address it head-on, like a man): Jesus finds fault with these FALSE PROPHETS, who mislead many by performing miracles, yet who are "workers of lawlessness". They are evildoers, despite performing miracles. Do you see the difference between the two? You're conflating the two--you're (whether intentionally or unintentionally) miscategorizing the good deeds which Paul says earn men eternal life at the coming judgment as if they're "miracles false prophets do" when they're clearly the good deeds false prophets DON'T do, which is the entire basis of Christ's objection to them.

Again, not sure how you could've gotten mixed up about this, but there it is laid out pretty clearly and simply--not sure how much more clear it can be made, but if you want it clarified any further, I can try.

Let's both stop running in circles and get to the point, concerning Rom. 8:8-9 and Luke 13:27-28, by focussing on John 3:3-8.

Though Jesus was speaking directly to the Jews in Luke, Romans 8:8-9 speaks to all people, as to who the "workers of iniquity" really are through John 3:3-8.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN [of the Holy Spirit].

Therefore, in Rom. 8:9, anyone and everyone "who hath not the Spirit of Christ, is none of His", and as a result, ALL OF SUCH ARE "WORKERS OF INIQUITY".

So then, in that which I have shown above, what scripture reveals it to be absolutely true?
Ans. Rom. 8[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot [ever] please God.

 

[Earburner]

ALL sin will land a person in hell.... unless the confess and forsake it do they can be cleaned of all un righteousness

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




I hear the universalists say this all the time...

All sin can be forgiven... but making the blanket statement that ALL sins will be forgiven is universalism and would mean nobody has to even be born again.... everyone is forgiven and going to heaven!

That's a false gospel and some other jesus... that's not the real Jesus of God's Word.

I never said anything of what you think that I am saying. Please, get a grip, because if you hear anything at all, of all that I have said in this forum, it's ALWAYS: "ye must be born again", which is directly connected to Rom. 8:9. "Whosoever hath not the Spirit of Christ, is none of his". Please see also Rev. 3:20.
Evidently, you did not read or digest my previous post #383.

 

[Earburner]

ALL sin will land a person in hell.... unless the confess and forsake it do they can be cleaned of all un righteousness

Only ALL, and they ONLY, who HAVE NOT the literal "Spirit of Christ" within them , shall end up in hell, aka eternal death!!

"Ye MUST BE....born again", of the literal "Spirit of Christ", otherwise all of such who are not, will be lost forever.

 

[GracePeace]

Let's both stop running in circles and get to the point, concerning Rom. 8:8-9 and Luke 13:27-28, by focussing on John 3:3-8.

Though Jesus was speaking directly to the Jews in Luke, Romans 8:8-9 speaks to all people, as to who the "workers of iniquity" really are through John 3:3-8.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN [of the Holy Spirit].

Therefore, in Rom. 8:9, anyone and everyone "who hath not the Spirit of Christ, is none of His", and as a result, ALL OF SUCH ARE "WORKERS OF INIQUITY".

So then, in that which I have shown above, what scripture reveals it to be absolutely true?
Ans. Rom. 8[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot [ever] please God.

1. So... still not addressing the passages. Still running away.

2. Stop lying, pretending we're anything like in this matter: I speak directly, you run from Scripture.
I'm not interested in investing myself in any more of your little "Scriptural challenges" until YOU address the passages I challenged you to answer long ago.
For the record, I've already addressed John's Gospel--people can just go back and read that.

 

[Earburner]

1. So... still not addressing the passages. Still running away.

2. Stop lying, pretending we're anything like in this matter: I speak directly, you run from Scripture.
I'm not interested in investing myself in any more of your little "Scriptural challenges" until YOU address the passages I challenged you to answer long ago.
For the record, I've already addressed John's Gospel--people can just go back and read that.

" Long ago" in this thread was most likely addressed, but you can't recognize it. What post# are you referencing

 

[GracePeace]

" Long ago" in this thread was most likely addressed, but you can't recognize it. What post# are you referencing

I'm not going to let you keep running away to other passages, and warrantlessly "tasking" me--you got to raise Matthew 7, and I knocked your misrepresentation of it down (it actually proves that my point from Galatians 6:6-10 is correct--Christ DOES repay men with eternal life for doing good, and sends evildoers to hell, when He returns), and now you're running to another passage, and after I knock it down, you'll raise another passage, and another, and another.

Answer the passages I raised.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Only ALL, and they ONLY, who HAVE NOT the literal "Spirit of Christ" within them , shall end up in hell, aka eternal death!!

"Ye MUST BE....born again", of the literal "Spirit of Christ", otherwise all of such who are not, will be lost forever.

If some one that has been born again.... and sins, they just because UNrighteous.

IF they confess and forsake their sin, the Lord will cleanse them of all unrighteousness.

IF they don't... He won't... and they will die in a state of being UNrighteous


Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

 

[Earburner]

ALL sin will land a person in hell.... unless the confess and forsake it do they can be cleaned of all un righteousness

Apparently, your confusion is because you have not read or correctly discerned the two judgments of God in John 3:18.
1. Eternal death.
2. Eternal life.

1. Everyone who is born of flesh only, abides under the judgment of eternal death through Adam, and are "condemned ALREADY".

2. Everyone who is "born again" of the Spirit, abides under the judgment of eternal life, through faith in Christ, are no longer condemned and "shall NEVER die".

That brings us back to Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[Earburner]

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

Well, you do have half of John 3:18 correct.
All who are of "the natural man" only, cannot help but to sow to the flesh.

But, you didn't follow through with the other half.
Q**. How does one "sow" to the Spirit?
Clue: 1 Cor. 15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption [our flesh]; it is raised in incorruption [by His Spirit]:
[43] It is sown in dishonour [our flesh]; it is raised in glory [by His Spirit]: it is sown in weakness [our flesh]; it is raised in power [by His Spirit]:
[44] It is sown a natural body [our flesh]; it is raised a spiritual body [by His Spirit]. There is a natural body [our flesh], and there is a spiritual body [by His Spirit].
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy [our flesh]: the second man is the Lord from heaven [by His Spirit,].
**Ans. One must be born again by His Spirit.

Zech. 4
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, [self will] nor by power, [religious persuasion] but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[GracePeace]

Well, you do have half of John 3:18 correct.
All who are of "the natural man" only, cannot help but to sow to the flesh.

But, you didn't follow through with the other half.
Q**. How does one "sow" to the Spirit?
Clue: 1 Cor. 15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption [our flesh]; it is raised in incorruption [by His Spirit]:
[43] It is sown in dishonour [our flesh]; it is raised in glory [by His Spirit]: it is sown in weakness [our flesh]; it is raised in power [by His Spirit]:
[44] It is sown a natural body [our flesh]; it is raised a spiritual body [by His Spirit]. There is a natural body [our flesh], and there is a spiritual body [by His Spirit].
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy [our flesh]: the second man is the Lord from heaven [by His Spirit,].
**Ans. By His Spirit.
Zech. 4
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, [self will] nor by power, [religious persuasion] but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Interesting: you're willing to discuss a whole range of Biblical subjects, just not the passages that once-and-for-all debunk your religious tradition.

Curious: Are you really at peace with yourself knowing you're knowingly and intentionally suppressing God's Truth in order to preserve your religious tradition?

 

[Fred J]

The gift of Gods grace is a free gift but there are still conditions that must be met
The very first condition is Faith in Jesus and His gospel.

'For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of GOD, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.' (Ephesians2:8&9)

The gift of GOD provides, not only 'grace' but also 'faith', for unbelievers, including me, to respond according to the Gospel and be saved.

"No man can come to Me, except the FATHER which hath sent Me draw him: ................................................" (John6;44)

Gibberish and heresy, shame even to those who react with, 'Like', to your post.

Scripture is the authority to determine between the, spirit of error and the spirit of truth. (1John4:6)

'My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.' (James3:1)

 

[Earburner]

Interesting: you're willing to discuss a whole range of Biblical subjects, just not the passages that once-and-for-all debunk your religious tradition.

Curious: Are you really at peace with yourself knowing you're knowingly and intentionally suppressing God's Truth in order to preserve your religious tradition?

No, John 3:18 is the answer to Gal. 6:6-10.
[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. See John 3:3-8.
[9] And [also] let us not be weary in well doing [two greatest commandments]: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not [not lose faith in Jesus].

 

[GracePeace]

No, John 3:18 is the answer to Gal. 6:6-10.
[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. See John 3:3-8.
[9] And [also] let us not be weary in well doing [two greatest commandments]: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not [not lose faith in Jesus].

So, you agree that men are repaid eternal life "in due season" for persisting in doing good deeds during this life--but doers of evil (like the false prophets you mentioned from Mt 7) will be repaid with torment (like Mt 7 and Ro 2 teach)?

Also, the entire passage teaches "doing good deeds during your life on earth is sowing to the Spirit so that you will reap a harvest of eternal life 'in due season'", nowhere is "believing in Jesus makes you have eternal life" mentioned.

You are dishonest, and you don't even care that you're dishonest. Why are you doing that?

 

[Fred J]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?

Again back to the same topic, when the Scripture sound doctrine already given the conclusion, even i've post it prior. It is apparent that the 'babes in Christ', have a lot of free time in their hands, to discuss just one topic.

They tend to proceed back and forth, even open a new tread of the same thing, when all the time ignore the Scripture sound doctrine and authority already spoken. Instead of becoming wise and stick to the sown seeds by the Lord through the Apostles in foundation and source of spirit and life. But rather they proceed unwisely and scatter them, accumulating trouble for themselves on judgement day.

The Gospel dogma of the Apostles' testament, have been very clear. That is, every unbeliever are saved by the gift of GOD imparted in them. Therefore, the gift is not only consist of 'grace', but also 'faith', by which unbelievers draw near to the Son and His Gospel. They did not draw near by themselves, nor by of works, least any man should boast.

Next, now they have become believers, as the body of Christ, as members of His body, while He is the Head of the church. They are disciple in the foundation of the Apostles, being people called to the New Covenant, even in the lessons of the Old as references. (2Timothy3:16)

'That the man of GOD may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.' (2timothy3:17)

'Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.' (James2:17)


Thank you.

 

[GracePeace]

No, John 3:18 is the answer to Gal. 6:6-10.
[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. See John 3:3-8.
[9] And [also] let us not be weary in well doing [two greatest commandments]: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not [not lose faith in Jesus].

What I do when I see Scriptures that seem to be disagree with one another is I look around for what details I might be missing--maybe there are some doctrinal "pieces" I'm missing that might act as a bridge between the two (as I previously explained my position on these two seemingly mutually exclusive doctrines)--and, if I'm really smart that day, I'll remember I can ask God about it.

What I'm seeing with you is if/when you find doctrines that seem mutually exclusive, you impose the verse you're more comfortable with onto the one that seems to disagree, attempting to smother it, snuff the shining light out, so that it will no longer grieve you, and you then turn around and try to persuade everyone watching you doing what you are doing, "No, the passage is certainly not teaching what it is obviously teaching!"

It's like when the gays deny the Bible condemns homosexuality--it obviously does, and all the Christians know it, yet the gays prattle on and on, convinced, in their delusions, that they're actually making headway with their ridiculous arguments, while the Christians aren't budging at all.

I couldn't live with myself if I did what you are doing--my thoughts would be screaming at me that I am being dishonest. I would rather acknowledge the Scriptures say what they say, and sit with the question, and say that I do not know the answer.

 

[Earburner]

What I do when I see Scriptures that seem to be disagree with one another is I look around for what details I might be missing--maybe there are some doctrinal "pieces" I'm missing that might act as a bridge between the two (as I previously explained my position on these two seemingly mutually exclusive doctrines)--and, if I'm really smart that day, I'll remember I can ask God about it.

What I'm seeing with you is if/when you find doctrines that seem mutually exclusive, you impose the verse you're more comfortable with onto the one that seems to disagree, attempting to smother it, snuff the shining light out, so that it will no longer grieve you, and you then turn around and try to persuade everyone watching you doing what you are doing, "No, the passage is certainly not teaching what it is obviously teaching!"

It's like when the gays deny the Bible condemns homosexuality--it obviously does, and all the Christians know it, yet the gays prattle on and on, convinced, in their delusions, that they're actually making headway with their ridiculous arguments, while the Christians aren't budging at all.

I couldn't live with myself if I did what you are doing--my thoughts would be screaming at me that I am being dishonest. I would rather acknowledge the Scriptures say what they say, and sit with the question, and say that I do not know the answer.

Since you are now condescending towards my understanding of that which the "Holy Spirit teacheth", I shall show that the comparison that you are seeking to make, is through the mind of your "natural man", and not by "the mind of Christ", that is if He is within you.
Gal. 6:7-8. Is interpreted by Rom. 8:8-10

Gal. 6
[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
[8] For he that [hath not Christ] soweth to his flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption [eternal death]; but he that [hath Christ] soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting [eternal life, which is Christ Himself].
Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God [for they have not the Spirit of Christ].
[9] But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of [His] righteousness [not our form of righteousness, which is by Law keeping].
Edit: please see John 3:3-8, 18.

 

[Ritajanice]

Since you are now condescending towards my understanding of that which the "Holy Spirit teacheth", I shall show that the comparison that you are seeking to make, is through the mind of your "natural man", and not by "the mind of Christ", that is if He is within you.
Gal. 6:7-8. Is interpreted by Rom. 8:8-9

Excellent Brother....Amen!!!

 

[GracePeace]

Since you are now condescending towards my understanding of that which the "Holy Spirit teacheth", I shall show that the comparison that you are seeking to make, is through the mind of your "natural man", and not by "the mind of Christ", that is if He is within you.
Gal. 6:7-8. Is interpreted by Rom. 8:8-10

Gal. 6
[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
[8] For he that [hath not Christ] soweth to his flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption [eternal death]; but he that [hath Christ] soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting [eternal life, which is Christ Himself].
Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God [for they have not the Spirit of Christ].
[9] But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of [His] righteousness [not our form of righteousness, which is by Law keeping].
Edit: please see John 3:3-8, 18.

Everything you have said is irrelevant--you either affirm what passages like Galatians 6 teach (and you already unknowingly have in citing Matthew 7), or else you reject it. I am not the wrongdoer here.