SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Taken]

Just observing what you are doing--running away from doctrine that is inconvenient for your traditions--that's all.

Continually your stance is making false allegations.
I am not rejecting Scripture, I am rejecting what YOU say is YOUR interpretation of Scripture and YOUR repetitive demands for agreement with what YOU say including your accusations. Duh!

 

[GracePeace]

It's simply this, through faith in Christ, and His shed blood, I am made to be perfect in the Father's eyes. I am not under condemnation any longer. By the Gift of God's Holy Spirit within me, I KNOW that I now have eternal life.

Again, you're selecting which Scriptures to believe, whereas I'm believing them all--I also believe God has given us eternal life, but that that life is "in the Son", and some do not abide in the Son, where there is no condemnation, but are drawn away by idols/sin and are condemned (Romans 8:1, 14:23, 1 Jn 2:28, 1 Jn 5:21), and, if they persist that way, are storing up wrath for themselves, not eternal life (Ro 2; 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10:11).

You also fail to acknowledge that eternal life is a gift because righteousness is a gift--the slavery to righteousness is a main cause of the eternal life being a gift (Ro 6)--and that those very same slaves of righteousness are told they will die, not live, if they do not repay the debt they owe to God for all He has done for them, but choose to walk after the flesh (Mt 25:25; Ro 8:12,13; 1 Co 10).

Again, you're not wrong, you're only half right--and you trample on Scripture in the process. I won't disregard Scripture like you want me to.

 

[GracePeace]

Continually your stance is making false allegations.
I am not rejecting Scripture, I am rejecting what YOU say is YOUR interpretation of Scripture and YOUR repetitive demands for agreement with what YOU say including your accusations. Duh!

Right, and, acknowledging you've made that empty allegation, I have asked you to go ahead and furnish a more plausible explanation of the passages I've cited.

Everyone is waiting!

 

[GracePeace]

Continually your stance is making false allegations.
I am not rejecting Scripture, I am rejecting what YOU say is YOUR interpretation of Scripture and YOUR repetitive demands for agreement with what YOU say including your accusations. Duh!

It's simply this, through faith in Christ, and His shed blood, I am made to be perfect in the Father's eyes. I am not under condemnation any longer. By the Gift of God's Holy Spirit within me, I KNOW that I now have eternal life.

To be clear, I'm not saying either of you do not have God, or that you're going to hell, or that you pose a threat of anyone going to hell (if they listen to your beliefs), only that you are perhaps unknowingly denying some of Scripture (maybe you don't know how it fits in your belief structure)--and that I am unwilling to overlook those verses of Scripture.

 

[Taken]

When I read Scripture… I find that men are repaid eternal life, not mere "rewards", in return for their doing good deeds.

1 John 5:
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is “IN” his Son.

[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[GracePeace]

1 John 5:
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is “IN” his Son.

[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I've already responded to this.

Again, you're selecting which Scriptures to believe, whereas I'm believing them all--I also believe God has given us eternal life, but that that life is "in the Son", and some do not abide in the Son, where there is no condemnation, but are drawn away by idols/sin and are condemned (Romans 8:1, 14:23, 1 Jn 2:28, 1 Jn 5:21), and, if they persist that way, are storing up wrath for themselves, not eternal life (Ro 2; 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10:11).

You also fail to acknowledge that eternal life is a gift because righteousness is a gift--the slavery to righteousness is a main cause of the eternal life being a gift (Ro 6)--and that those very same slaves of righteousness are told they will die, not live, if they do not repay the debt they owe to God for all He has done for them, but choose to walk after the flesh (Mt 25:25; Ro 8:12,13; 1 Co 10).

Again, you're not wrong, you're only half right--and you trample on Scripture in the process. I won't disregard Scripture like you want me to.

If you have a response, you can share it.

 

[GracePeace]

1 John 5:
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is “IN” his Son.

[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1. See, I addressed the verse directly (#362), I didn't sidestep it--that is, I absolutely affirm 1 John 5:11, AND I believe other verses regarding the issue (eg, Galatians 6:6-10).
I studied and asked God about how to reconcile the teachings, so that I would hold BOTH verses of Scripture, not just one or the other--I have no right to dismiss any verse of Scripture, so I must do that.

2. You are no less obligated to believe Galatians 6:6-10, and other passages like that one, than I am to believe 1 John 5:11--you have yet to address them.

Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I am not rejecting Scripture, I am rejecting what YOU say is YOUR interpretation of Scripture and YOUR repetitive demands for agreement with what YOU say including your accusations. Duh!

That's what you are doing!

It's what most people on this forum are doing!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The "good works" ARE the "good Fruit", which are the attributes and character of God, being the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

And... those not walking in this won't be spending eternity with the Lord.

UNLESS they confess their sins and repent and start abiding IN Christ bearing fruit.

 

[Earburner]

Again, you're selecting which Scriptures to believe, whereas I'm believing them all--I also believe God has given us eternal life, but that that life is "in the Son", and some do not abide in the Son, where there is no condemnation, but are drawn away by idols/sin and are condemned (Romans 8:1, 14:23, 1 Jn 2:28, 1 Jn 5:21), and, if they persist that way, are storing up wrath for themselves, not eternal life (Ro 2; 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10:11).

You also fail to acknowledge that eternal life is a gift because righteousness is a gift--the slavery to righteousness is a main cause of the eternal life being a gift (Ro 6)--and that those very same slaves of righteousness are told they will die, not live, if they do not repay the debt they owe to God for all He has done for them, but choose to walk after the flesh (Mt 25:25; Ro 8:12,13; 1 Co 10).

Again, you're not wrong, you're only half right--and you trample on Scripture in the process. I won't disregard Scripture like you want me to.

It is apparent that your belief system is heavily focused on the words of Heb. 10:26-27, having no understanding of the verses following in context: verses 28-38, of which in a previous post, I clearly spelled out HOW a person can sin wilfully, and what THAT ONE sin is, which never has forgiveness.

[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Please re-study Heb.10:28-38 and know how it is that verse 38 applies.
[38] Now THE JUST shall live by faith: but if any man draw back [from faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
See also 2 Thes. 2:3.

So, my question to you, and all the listeners is: when were you made to be just in the eyes of God the Father?

 

[Earburner]

And... those not walking in this won't be spending eternity with the Lord.

UNLESS they confess their sins and repent and start abiding IN Christ bearing fruit.

But....in your lack of willingness to understand, there is only that ONE sin that NEVER has forgiveness. All other sins, that are common to men, SHALL BE FORGIVEN.
Therein is the "Peace of God that passes ALL understanding".
Phil. 4
[4] Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
[5] Let your moderation** be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
[6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

**Note:
Strong's Number - G1933
Greek: ἐπιεικής
Transliteration: epieikēs
Pronunciation: ep-ee-i-kace'
Definition: From G1909 and G1503; appropriate that is (by implication) mild: - gentle moderation patient.
KJV Usage: gentle (3x), patient (1x), moderation (1x).
Occurs: 5
In verses: 5

 

[GracePeace]

It is apparent that your belief system is heavily focused on the words of Heb. 10:26-27, having no understanding of the verses following in context: verses 28-38, of which in a previous post, I clearly spelled out HOW a person can sin wilfully, and what THAT ONE sin is, which never has forgiveness.

[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Please re-study Heb.10:28-38 and know how it is that verse 38 applies.
[38] Now THE JUST shall live by faith: but if any man draw back [from faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
See also 2 Thes. 2:3.

So, my question to you, and all the listeners is: when were you made to be just in the eyes of God the Father?

It's so interesting that you are willing to discuss so many other verses of Scripture, and ridiculously find fault with someone's "belief system", alleging it to be based on some other verses of Scripture, over there, which you are okay with discussing, but you are never willing to discuss the verses of Scripture I raised which pose a threat your belief system--eg, Galatians 6:6-10, which teaches eternal life will be reaped from the Spirit in due time only by those who do not grow weary in sowing to the Spirit (defined as "doing good to all men").

If you were interested in believing the Bible, interested in walking in the Truth, instead of looking like you know it all, looking correct, being "teachers" (except you now know you speak inaccurately--know you're lying), you would have no issue with accepting the plain text of Scripture. Why not humble yourselves and ask God to help you understand how the doctrine fits in rather than audaciously dismissing it? Who do you all think you are to dismiss God's Words?

 

[GracePeace]

[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Please re-study Heb.10:28-38 and know how it is that verse 38 applies.
[38] Now THE JUST shall live by faith: but if any man draw back [from faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
See also 2 Thes. 2:3.

So, my question to you, and all the listeners is: when were you made to be just in the eyes of God the Father?

Oops, Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23 say God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith, and, accordingly, each man should be fully persuaded in his own mind, because anything that's not from faith, anything done with doubt, is (not God's righteousness but is) sin--THAT is why Hebrews 10 says "My righteous one will live by faith, but if My righteous one draws back, My soul will have no pleasure in him", because "without faith it is impossible to please God", and "My righteous one" didn't persist in walking in faith, so Romans 14:23 declares he is "condemned", not justified, just as Ro 2 warns he is "storing up wrath".

 

[Earburner]

It's so interesting that you are willing to discuss so many other verses of Scripture, and ridiculously find fault with someone's "belief system", alleging it to be based on some other verses of Scripture, over there, which you are okay with discussing, but you are never willing to discuss the verses of Scripture I raised which pose a threat your belief system--eg, Galatians 6:6-10, which teaches eternal life will be reaped from the Spirit in due time only by those who do not grow weary in sowing to the Spirit (defined as "doing good to all men").

I agree with your scripture references, but as for what you want to deliver from them, you are coming through the wisdom of men, and not the authority of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:5.
You know, "...comparing spiritual things with spiritual".

If you were interested in believing the Bible, interested in walking in the Truth, instead of looking like you know it all, looking correct, being "teachers" (except you now know you speak inaccurately--know you're lying), you would have no issue with accepting the plain text of Scripture. Why not humble yourselves and ask God to help you understand how the doctrine fits in rather than audaciously dismissing it? Who do you all think you are to dismiss God's Words?

God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time.

The scriptures say what they say verbatim, but it's only by the Holy Spirit that we can discern God's interpretation and meaning, of His use of our human words. Isa. 55:8-9.

 

[GracePeace]

I agree with your scripture references, but as for what you want to deliver from them, you are coming through the wisdom of men, and not the authority of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:5.
You know, "...comparing spiritual things with spiritual".

God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time.

The scriptures say what they say verbatim, but it's only by the Holy Spirit that we can discern God's interpretation and meaning, of His use of our human words. Isa. 55:8-9.

So, now, if those Scriptures DON'T say what I "claim" they say--if they DON'T say what I think is painfully obvious they DO say--then, again, I am challenging you to tell all the readers what they DO, in your "spiritual" opinion, mean.

Surely you only base your disagreement with my "dim" reading on your own "enlightened" reading you have in reserve, and are not merely knee-jerk reacting to your traditional religion's structural integrity being threatened by Scriptural truth.

 

[Earburner]

So, now, if those Scriptures DON'T say what I "claim" they say--if they DON'T say what I think is painfully obvious they DO say--then, again, I am challenging you to tell all the readers what they DO, in your "spiritual" opinion, mean.

Surely you only base your disagreement with my "dim" reading on your own "enlightened" reading you have in reserve, and are not merely knee-jerk reacting to your traditional religion's structural integrity being threatened by Scriptural truth.

Honestly GP, why are you struggling and fretting over the Grace of God through faith in Jesus. Do you fear that if you commit sin, that you are not going to be saved?

Don't you know that your faith in the shed blood of Christ has made you to be "sin-LESS" (perfect) before God the Father, and that as long as we have our being, while in our corrupted mortal bodies, we are not ever "sin-FREE"?

 

[GracePeace]

Honestly GP, why are you struggling and fretting over the Grace of God through faith in Jesus. Do you fear that if you commit sin, that you are not going to be saved?

1. So... still not addressing the passages.

2. I desire to believe God's Word, because I believe God's grace is contained in "the Word of God's grace".
Is that a sin I am committing?

 

[Earburner]

1. So... still not addressing the passages.

2. I desire to believe God's Word, because I believe God's grace is contained in "the Word of God's grace".
Is that a sin I am committing?

Rom. 7:14-25
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the [mortal] body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Our body of flesh is a virtual grave in and of itself. The deepest desire of all born again Christians is to be physically delivered from it.

 

[GracePeace]

Rom. 7:14-25
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the [mortal] body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Our body of flesh is a virtual grave in and of itself. The deepest desire of all born again Christians is to be physically delivered from it.

1. So... still not addressing the passages.

2. I never said, "Everyone, we're under the Law, like the man in Romans 7", because "the Law is weak in that it relies on sinful flesh [which has nothing good in it to correspond to the good demands of the Law, as you noted from Ro 7]" (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3), rather, I said, "If Christians don't walk in faith, walk after the Spirit, they will be walking after the flesh, and, instead of sowing to the Spirit by doing good deeds by the power of the Spirit (because, while they are NOT under the Law, they ARE under Grace, the Spirit of Grace) working God's works in them, in return for which they would be repaid eternal life, they will be stuck fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and will die and not live" (Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13; Gal 5, 6).

 

[Earburner]

1. So... still not addressing the passages.

2. I never said, "Everyone, we're under the Law, like the man in Romans 7", because "the Law is weak in that it relies on sinful flesh [which has nothing good in it to correspond to the good demands of the Law, as you noted from Ro 7]" (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3), rather, I said, "If Christians don't walk in faith, walk after the Spirit, they will be walking after the flesh, and, instead of sowing to the Spirit by doing good deeds by the power of the Spirit (because, while they are NOT under the Law, they ARE under Grace, the Spirit of Grace) working God's works in them, in return for which they would be repaid eternal life, they will be stuck fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and will die and not live" (Ro 2:6-16, 8:12,13; Gal 5, 6).

Therefore, all professing Christians should heed the advice of Paul, and then take inventory through Rom. 8:8-9, of HOW each are STANDING by faith, according to 1 Cor. 2:5.
Is our personal faith standing in/by the wisdom of men or in/by the authority of the Holy Spirit and what he teaches?
The latter part of Rom.8:9 discerns it within in each of us, of who we each are, and to whom we each belong.
"....if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Now, for all concerned, who would ever expect to hear the words: "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity", after spending their whole life "doing" many wonderful [good] works, in Jesus' name??

Well unfortunately, it will be those who did not HAVE the Spirit of Christ within them, because that was all that was required in the first place.
John 3:3-8, 16; Rev. 3:20.