Romans 11:25 - Partially blinded

[grafted branch]

Grafted branch, you might find the following link interesting. It uses the Bible to prove a kind of grid exists that runs throughout Scripture, and goes in-depth on Daniel 9 prophecy that leads to Christ.

The Atonement Clock.

Yes, I have that and it is very well done. Christian Gedge has the great jubilee cycle starting with Jacob in Genesis 28:10-15 and there are no gaps in that cycle.

Unfortunately Christian Gedge is no longer with us, I’m sure he would be able to quickly dispel the gap theory as he was well studied and an expert on these things.

 

[WPM]

Also, in my previous response, I sincerely attempted to distinguish the idea that the Jews were / are no better than any other peoples of the world. And that the word “chosen” did not refer to their superiority but rather to their “mission” given to them by God. They were definitely “chosen” to be His priests to go out into the world to teach / preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the world as the One and only true God.

But all of this does not mean that God has not put into His plan of salvation their “final mission.” This does not conflict with the many verses you provided about their is neither Jew nor Greek, etc. It simply means He has an end time mission for them to fulfill.

Yes it does! They are not chosen today. Israel rejected and rejects Christ. Those who hate Christ are not the people of God. They are apostate and of their father the devil. That is a New Testament fact. There is no special favor for ethnic Christ-rejecting apostate Israel since the cross. Quite the opposite. They are under the wrath of God! The kingdom has been removed from them. God has cursed the natural Israeli fig tree and terminated the ancient old covenant Israeli theocracy. But true Israel (Christ-accepting Israel - God's true elect), the faithful remnant, have been expanded to embrace believers in all nations today. God now works through this spiritual Israeli organism to manifest His name throughout the earth. These are the true circumcision. These are the children if Abraham. These are they that reside in true Zion.

Natural Israel and natural Jews can embrace Christ at any time and be grafted into the good olive tree and be at one with fellow Christians. This is the household of faith. This is the only Israel that carries God's favor.

 

[CTK]

Ok, I would like to take a closer look at the GJ cycle and why I don’t think there has been any gaps in that cycle.

If we start with the 15th day of Abib 1444 BC (you might disagree with this exact date) as a jubilee year when Israel left Egypt then we can count down all the jubilee years, we can see that there are no gaps, they continue one after the other.

Do you see the Exodus as a Jubilee year?

Thank you... Would you mind giving me your thoughts on the beginning and ending of the 3rd and 4th Great Jubille cycles?

 

[rwb]

Yes, I have that and it is very well done. Christian Gedge has the great jubilee cycle starting with Jacob in Genesis 28:10-15 and there are no gaps in that cycle.

Unfortunately Christian Gedge is no longer with us, I’m sure he would be able to quickly dispel the gap theory as he was well studied and an expert on these things.

Yes, Gedge's mention of Christ ushering in the final Jubilee went right over my head. Now that I understand, I don't see a problem in saying the final week is literally one week, nor do I see a problem saying the final one is seven years, because it is actually both!

 

[CTK]

Maybe you would give us NT Scripture that teaches "THEIR END TIME MISSION." You saying it means nothing. To me, the NT is not about race, it is about grace. The focus is no longer ethnic Israel, a physical temple or earthly Jerusalem, it is about the international people of God both Jew and Gentile reaching a fallen world with the truth.

I don't understand why you still repeat the same comment that its not about race and thus claiming I am stating that it is about race. I don't know what more I can see but repeat myself... salvation is not about race but grace through the Messiah... period.

But that does not mean that God will ever forsake or turn away from His people. I am quite sure you are aware of both OT and NT verses that speak of this...and they do not conflict with the verses you provided that tell us "their is neither Jew nor Greek"...

 

[grafted branch]

Thank you... Would you mind giving me your thoughts on the beginning and ending of the 3rd and 4th Great Jubille cycles?

Sure, I really think the jubilee cycles started with creation but there is very little to nothing said about dates going that far back.

If we start with Jacob’s ladder and the promises made in Genesis 28:10-15 that puts the first GJ cycle starting in 1927 BC. That cycle ends in 1437 BC, 70 years after the exodus. 1437 to 947 BC would be the second GJ, 947 to 457 BC the third, and 457 to 30 AD as the fourth.

 

[WPM]

I don't understand why you still repeat the same comment that its not about race and thus claiming I am stating that it is about race. I don't know what more I can see but repeat myself... salvation is not about race but grace through the Messiah... period.

But that does not mean that God will ever forsake or turn away from His people. I am quite sure you are aware of both OT and NT verses that speak of this...and they do not conflict with the verses you provided that tell us "their is neither Jew nor Greek"...

You are not getting it! People that reject Christ are not "His people." Also, you avoided my enquiry: Maybe you would give us NT Scripture that teaches "THEIR END TIME MISSION."

 

[CTK]

Yes, I have that and it is very well done. Christian Gedge has the great jubilee cycle starting with Jacob in Genesis 28:10-15 and there are no gaps in that cycle.

Unfortunately Christian Gedge is no longer with us, I’m sure he would be able to quickly dispel the gap theory as he was well studied and an expert on these things.

I have not yet seen this grid down by this individual. I have seen more than a few studies on the timing of each of the 4 Great Jubilee Sabbatical cycles... and they are all very different. All have identified dates but all qualify them with a statement that actual records of the dates and when Israel was or was not in "good standing" are not available.


However, if you have quick access to it, would you be so kind as to provide the beginning and ending dates for the 3rd and 4th GJ Sabbatical cycles? The reason being is that, although there are still more than one or two dates that are believed to be the dedication of Soloman's Temple, which started the 3rd GJ Sabbatical cycle, it is much stronger than any information recorded prior to that also provides a breakdown of the "reckoned" vs. "unreconkened time periods. Thanks so much.

 

[CTK]

Sure, I really think the jubilee cycles started with creation but there is very little to nothing said about dates going that far back.

If we start with Jacob’s ladder and the promises made in Genesis 28:10-15 that puts the first GJ cycle starting in 1927 BC. That cycle ends in 1437 BC, 70 years after the exodus. 1437 to 947 BC would be the second GJ, 947 to 457 BC the third, and 457 to 30 AD as the fourth.

Thank you and you can see just how difficult this specific topic is ... there are so many very different calculations and theories. And no one agrees with the other... The lack of information regarding just what time periods have been declared "unreckoned" is just not available.

Which bring us to its purpose ---- there are many theories on just when the 70 weeks of years prophecy started. There are at least three different years .. and they all believe they are able to support their starting dates.... So, rather than pick one of the three available dates (from their studies), I decided to try and determine what the starting date should be - if it was not one of the three. Consequently, one should start at the beginning... and that happened to be the beginning of the Great Jubille cycle... it all had to tie together with the 70 weeks of years prophecy...

So, I see above you start the 3rd GJ Sabbatical cycle at 947 BC. If we subtract 490 years from that we arrive at exactly 457 BC. So the math works! But, there are two other pieces that must be considered... as opposed to a pure math calculation. The Jews were being punished in exile for 70 years in Babylon. Additionally, the Temple was completely destroyed. These two factors meant they were no longer in "good standing" or "in covenant" with their God. What do you do with those issues? Again, in every one of the 4 GJ Sabbatical cycles, Israel disobeyed God and committed idolatry and during or within those cycles, there were blocks of time when they were not "in covenant" with God... and thus, they were considered "unreckoned" years (they would not count towards the required 490 literal years needed to complete the cycle.....

 

[grafted branch]

The Jews were being punished in exile for 70 years in Babylon. Additionally, the Temple was completely destroyed. These two factors meant they were no longer in "good standing" or "in covenant" with their God. What do you do with those issues?

I see the covenant as a marriage contract, even when Israel didn’t perform their obligations to that covenant/contract it still meant that they were married.

Hosea is an example of how Israel was still married despite being adulterous. I’m not of the opinion that God divorced Israel and remarried her again, nor do I think He will have more than one bride or wife at a time.

 

[CTK]

People that reject Christ as not "His people." You are not getting it! Also, you avoided my enquiry: Maybe you would give us NT Scripture that teaches "THEIR END TIME MISSION."

No, I am getting it... everyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are certainly His people, but, once again, that does not take away from God declaring in both the Old and the New Testament that they are "His people." Do you agree with that?

Secondly, I think it is very clear, based on my tendency to respond with longer comments and that I have no problem trying to explain my thoughts that I would ever be considered to "avoid anything." That is certainly unnecessary and untrue, and I would respectfully ask that you take a step back or two.... I am very accommodating but .....

Now, I can cut / paste a section from my commentary on this topic... but I would rather ask you to provide me with your understanding of the following"

1) what, if anything, do we do with the last 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy,
2) how does it tie into other important Levitical requirements,
3) how does it tie into God's promise of "removing the blindness from the eyes of His people."
4) how or is this mentioned or referred to somehow in Revelation,
5) why and how is this important to the Jews at the end times,
6) how is it important to the Christians at the end times,
7) how does this tie in with the prophetic verses in Chapter 11 and 12,
8) how does this tie in with the NT verses that speak of God never abondoning His people,
9) how does this tie into the verses in Deuteronomy regarding God never turning away from His people,
10) how does this tie into the verses in Isaiah and Psalms regarding His people,
11) this could go on.... meaning, no one verse stands alone like most have done with 9:27... all of the pieces of this 10,000 piece puzzle fit together quite nicely and proves the picture on the outside of the box
12) you cannot see the picture on the outside of the box by looking at one, two or three piecess only.... It is so difficult to place these very unsual shaped pieces together. I feel quite comfortable that I have pieced the Book of Daniel together... (no other book have I studied), but Daniel is such an unbelievable puzzle.

So, if you have not yet figured it out, all of the 12 comments mentioned above can be answered to support your demand for the 3.5 year interpretation of the Jews preaching the Good News at the end of time..... I do apologize for this response but I just did not like the way it was presented....

 

[CTK]

I see the covenant as a marriage contract, even when Israel didn’t perform their obligations to that covenant/contract it still meant that they were married.

Hosea is an example of how Israel was still married despite being adulterous. I’m not of the opinion that God divorced Israel and remarried her again, nor do I think He will have more than one bride or wife at a time.

You are certainly correct in viewing the term "covenant" that way.... to be candid, I am probably not using the best / proper term for when Israel is / was "not in good standing" or "not in covenant" with their God where the actual years would not be counted towards the Great Jubilee years requirement. Let me go back and do a little more digging to see what the scholars use for this..... I will get back to you, thanks.

 

[grafted branch]

You are certainly correct in viewing the term "covenant" that way.... to be candid, I am probably not using the best / proper term for when Israel is / was "not in good standing" or "not in covenant" with their God where the actual years would not be counted towards the Great Jubilee years requirement. Let me go back and do a little more digging to see what the scholars use for this..... I will get back to you, thanks.

I can really appreciate you taking the time to word your response in the right way. I often have to think about things, sometimes for several days before I can put down in words what I want to.

Take your time on this, I always have a lot to do on Saturday evening and Sundays. Thanks for the good conversation so far, even though we don’t agree on everything.

 

[CTK]

I can really appreciate you taking the time to word your response in the right way. I often have to think about things, sometimes for several days before I can put down in words what I want to.

Take your time on this, I always have a lot to do on Saturday evening and Sundays. Thanks for the good conversation so far, even though we don’t agree on everything.

Thank you so much for your kind words… very nice to hear…

 

[rwb]

I have not yet seen this grid down by this individual. I have seen more than a few studies on the timing of each of the 4 Great Jubilee Sabbatical cycles... and they are all very different. All have identified dates but all qualify them with a statement that actual records of the dates and when Israel was or was not in "good standing" are not available.


However, if you have quick access to it, would you be so kind as to provide the beginning and ending dates for the 3rd and 4th GJ Sabbatical cycles? The reason being is that, although there are still more than one or two dates that are believed to be the dedication of Soloman's Temple, which started the 3rd GJ Sabbatical cycle, it is much stronger than any information recorded prior to that also provides a breakdown of the "reckoned" vs. "unreconkened time periods. Thanks so much.

You would really be helped perusing the book "The Atonement Clock" I linked for you. Like Grafted branch has said the first of 490-year era begins with the era of Jacob's ladder. The second 490-year era is found through the time of the Judges. The third 490-year era in the reigns of the Kings, and the fourth and last 490-year era from Daniel to Christ. The author, Christian Gedge proves this.

 

[CTK]

You would really be helped perusing the book "The Atonement Clock" I linked for you. Like Grafted branch has said the first of 490-year era begins with the era of Jacob's ladder. The second 490-year era is found through the time of the Judges. The third 490-year era in the reigns of the Kings, and the fourth and last 490-year era from Daniel to Christ. The author, Christian Gedge proves this.

Thank you, but does he include the periods of time WITHIN each of the 4 GJ Sabbatical cycles that reconcile with the 490 year Sabbatical cycles? I have reconciled the 3rd and the 4th Sabbatical cycles.

 

[rwb]

Thank you, but does he include the periods of time WITHIN each of the 4 GJ Sabbatical cycles that reconcile with the 490 year Sabbatical cycles? I have reconciled the 3rd and the 4th Sabbatical cycles.

Here is a small snippet of his work. He writes, "A grid exist of 'weeks', periods of seven years and multiples of seven that extend beneath the pages of Scripture surfacing briefly within stories and seemingly innocuous chronologies. Take, for example, Jacob's age of 147 years at death. This is 7 X 21. His bethel dream came to him at age 77 (7X11) and its confirmation from God came 21 years later (7 X 3). Jacob worked seven years for Leah and seven years for Rachel and on the fourteenth year Joseph was born. He entered Egypt as an old man with seventy offspring.

All this might be dismissed as a little quirk of Genesis if it were not for another fact. The pattern of sevens picks up again in the next book of the Bible some four to five hundred years later."

This same sequence of sevens continues throughout. Chris has done an excellent Job of showing the link between these multiples of seven that fantastically take us exactly to Christ's Atonement. If you can find the time, I promise you will be amazed when you see the amount of time and work he put into this book. I am not in agreement with some of what he has written beyond the prophecy of Daniel' 70 weeks of years, but in reading some your posts here, I'm betting you will find agreement where I do not. Because like you, he concludes with the salvation of the Jews, thinking that God says their blindness will be one day be removed and all of them shall be saved.

 

[Keraz]

Thanks for your response and waiting for mine... I would kindly ask that you read my last / recent response to Spiritual Israelite - parst 1 and 2 in #'s 128 and 129. I believe it might address your response as well, thanks.

No, You have not proved that those who call themselves Jews, are still the Chosen people of God.
1 Peter 2:9-10 makes it crystal clear who the Chosen peoples of God are.

But all of this does not mean that God has not put into His plan of salvation their “final mission.” This does not conflict with the many verses you provided about their is neither Jew nor Greek, etc. It simply means He has an end time mission for them to fulfill.

The Jews do not have a final mission as a nation. Some individuals, who are Christian's now, will join with their brethren; Jeramiah 50:4-5
Many Prophesies tell of the virtual demise of the Jewish State of Israel. God has given them 2000 years to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah.

 

[WPM]

No, I am getting it... everyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are certainly His people, but, once again, that does not take away from God declaring in both the Old and the New Testament that they are "His people." Do you agree with that?

Secondly, I think it is very clear, based on my tendency to respond with longer comments and that I have no problem trying to explain my thoughts that I would ever be considered to "avoid anything." That is certainly unnecessary and untrue, and I would respectfully ask that you take a step back or two.... I am very accommodating but .....

Now, I can cut / paste a section from my commentary on this topic... but I would rather ask you to provide me with your understanding of the following"

1) what, if anything, do we do with the last 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy,
2) how does it tie into other important Levitical requirements,
3) how does it tie into God's promise of "removing the blindness from the eyes of His people."
4) how or is this mentioned or referred to somehow in Revelation,
5) why and how is this important to the Jews at the end times,
6) how is it important to the Christians at the end times,
7) how does this tie in with the prophetic verses in Chapter 11 and 12,
8) how does this tie in with the NT verses that speak of God never abondoning His people,
9) how does this tie into the verses in Deuteronomy regarding God never turning away from His people,
10) how does this tie into the verses in Isaiah and Psalms regarding His people,
11) this could go on.... meaning, no one verse stands alone like most have done with 9:27... all of the pieces of this 10,000 piece puzzle fit together quite nicely and proves the picture on the outside of the box
12) you cannot see the picture on the outside of the box by looking at one, two or three piecess only.... It is so difficult to place these very unsual shaped pieces together. I feel quite comfortable that I have pieced the Book of Daniel together... (no other book have I studied), but Daniel is such an unbelievable puzzle.

So, if you have not yet figured it out, all of the 12 comments mentioned above can be answered to support your demand for the 3.5 year interpretation of the Jews preaching the Good News at the end of time..... I do apologize for this response but I just did not like the way it was presented....

Where in "the New Testament" does it teach "that they are 'His people'"?

You are stuck in the OT. I hate to burst your bubble, but the old covenant is gone forever. The Old Testament was focused on a physical people, in a physical earthly land, fighting physical enemies, worshiping in a physical temple and natural earthly Jerusalem. The new covenant changed all that. We see a significant move:

• From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
• From the imperfect to the perfect
• From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
• From the physical to the spiritual
• From the external to the internal
• From the natural to the supernatural
• From the temporary to the eternal
• From the earthly to the heavenly
• From the national to the international
• From the conditional to the unconditional

These two economies couldn’t be more diverse. The improvement is obvious, substantial and indisputable. The repercussions are even greater for mankind. What was long-anticipated by the old covenant prophets has now wonderfully arrived. The appearance of Israel’s Messiah was the pivotal moment in history and the catalyst for a colossal transformative change.

Mirroring the process that a caterpillar undergoes developing into the maturity and beauty of a colorful butterfly, the Old Testament Church underwent a significant metamorphic change in the New Testament, progressing into the current Spirit-filled international New Testament Church. The ekklesia essentially took on wings! That is not to say that we can separate the elect of God in either dispensation or view them as two different entities. Rather, we must view both as the same organic entity. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report gives a similar illustration: “The relationship between the two Testaments is similar to that of a bud and its full blossom” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

Just because Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church carry different names and possess a different outward appearance and scope of movement does not negate the fact they are the same overall entity.

 

[WPM]

No, I am getting it... everyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are certainly His people, but, once again, that does not take away from God declaring in both the Old and the New Testament that they are "His people." Do you agree with that?

Secondly, I think it is very clear, based on my tendency to respond with longer comments and that I have no problem trying to explain my thoughts that I would ever be considered to "avoid anything." That is certainly unnecessary and untrue, and I would respectfully ask that you take a step back or two.... I am very accommodating but .....

Now, I can cut / paste a section from my commentary on this topic... but I would rather ask you to provide me with your understanding of the following"

1) what, if anything, do we do with the last 3.5 years of the last week of the prophecy,
2) how does it tie into other important Levitical requirements,
3) how does it tie into God's promise of "removing the blindness from the eyes of His people."
4) how or is this mentioned or referred to somehow in Revelation,
5) why and how is this important to the Jews at the end times,
6) how is it important to the Christians at the end times,
7) how does this tie in with the prophetic verses in Chapter 11 and 12,
8) how does this tie in with the NT verses that speak of God never abondoning His people,
9) how does this tie into the verses in Deuteronomy regarding God never turning away from His people,
10) how does this tie into the verses in Isaiah and Psalms regarding His people,
11) this could go on.... meaning, no one verse stands alone like most have done with 9:27... all of the pieces of this 10,000 piece puzzle fit together quite nicely and proves the picture on the outside of the box
12) you cannot see the picture on the outside of the box by looking at one, two or three piecess only.... It is so difficult to place these very unsual shaped pieces together. I feel quite comfortable that I have pieced the Book of Daniel together... (no other book have I studied), but Daniel is such an unbelievable puzzle.

So, if you have not yet figured it out, all of the 12 comments mentioned above can be answered to support your demand for the 3.5 year interpretation of the Jews preaching the Good News at the end of time..... I do apologize for this response but I just did not like the way it was presented....

Our Savior is also seen challenging the Jewish leaders of His day, in John 8:32, saying, “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which they responded, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted, “Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of these hypocrites, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [or slave] of sin. And the servant [or slave] abideth not in the house for ever: but the son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

There is such a battle going on here between the natural and the spiritual. The unbelieving religious Jews are pushing their genetic pedigree here as proof of their connection to Abraham, whereas Christ is trying to show them a spiritual truth – showing them that Israel’s inheritance is not secured by native heritage but rather by spiritual means What Jesus was basically saying is: ‘you might be a physical descendent of Abraham and yet not qualify to be a son or a child of God. What then would your ethnic DNA matter?’ He is showing them that faith matters!

These religious Jews had no revelation of their own innate sin. They were depending upon their own self-righteousness. Little did they know it, but man’s only deliverer from sin was standing in their midst. Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. Jews and Gentiles approach God on the same grounds being collectively blighted with the same disfigurement – sin. They consequently require the same cure (the only medicine for this affliction) – the blood of Jesus. All men are on a level playing field when it comes to birth. All are equally required to submit to the exact same requirements – faith in Christ and repentance towards God.

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Our Savior hits these religious imposters clean between the eyes with marksman’s accuracy and sobering truth. Firstly, He informed them that they had no right to consider themselves as “Abraham's children.” He advanced: “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” What He was telling them was: if you truly were Abraham’s children then your life and conduct would be like him and his. He was telling them that behavior reveals identity. He goes even further, He informs them that the evidence of them being true children of Abraham is demonstrated by them loving Him. This is the litmus test of who is a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Secondly, He identifies their true father as Satan. This would have been explosive and offensive to these proud religiously Jewish leaders. Jesus demonstrated that favor with Him didn’t come through natural pedigree but rather spiritual pedigree. Those Jews who rejected God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any way considered as God’s chosen people. They were children of the devil and they were heading to hell.