Romans 11:25 - Partially blinded

[Spiritual Israelite]

Very nice comments. Israel will always be His chosen people and they will have such an important and necessary final assignment to complete before the end.

Please read the New Testament which teaches that the church made up of Christian Jews and Gentiles are His chosen people.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

When Paul said "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" who do you think he was talking about?

Who are the chosen people in these passages:

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

1 Thessalonians 1: Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you. 2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

[Keraz]

Israel will always be His chosen people

This is a fundamental error.

Who is the true Israel of God?
Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It cannot be just those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behaviour, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10

It was always possible for foreigners to become an Israelite, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant:
Leviticus 19:33-34…foreigners are to be treated as native born among you…..
Isaiah 56:1-8….foreigners who give their allegiance to Me will be acceptable in My House of Prayer…..I shall add them to those who are already gathered.

Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is accepted into the House of Israel. Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18

So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:
1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. Nobody today, has proof of ancestry back to Abraham .
2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.
3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17

Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Cor. 1:20
So now all we Christians, in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel.

Jews have been cut off, but can be grafted back, as individual Christian believers. Bible prophecy proves that only a remnant will do that. Ezekiel 6:1-14, Zechariah 13:7-9, Romans 9:27

WE Christians are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8
This truth that: all righteous Christians are the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. Jewish Israel have been broken off from the Olive Tree and can only be grafted back, by having Christian faith.

The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27. Romans 9:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:24-26

 

[CTK]

While I agree with much of what you say, but I believe Christ when He tells us that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die.

First, thank you very much for your comments and thoughts... I certainly agree with you and enjoy reading them. The above comment is quite true but I believe the key here is that "whosoever...." meaning, the only way one will not die (second death) is if they believe and have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. We will all die once, but we do not want to be in the second death.

John 11:24-26 (KJV) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I think this passage might confirm my first statement - "though they were dead......" all will die, but on the day of resurrection.... they shall live."

Christ spoke these words after Lazarus had died. Martha, like you, believed her brother would not live again until the resurrection on the last day. So, Christ raised him from the dead to prove He has all power and authority over life and death. Telling her and us that physical death of our body cannot kill our soul. That's why Christ says, "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul" (Mt 10:28).

Agree with you! But all physically will die and their body goes into the ground. At the time of resurrection, all will be brought out from the grave and those who have accepted Jesus, God will once again place His Spirit back into him and he will once again be a "living soul.' Without God placing His Holy Spirit back into us, there will not be a "soul" or a "living soul" that can stand in His presence.

Because the life believers have in the flesh is mortal and destined to die, but since the life we have in Christ is eternal our spirit returns to God in heaven a living soul.

I believe that Christ raised Lazarus from the dead that we might know that death of our body for all who trust in Him is not the end of life, but the beginning of life in another realm.

Totally agree with you, but the "life" as a "living soul" will not be consumated until the resurrection when God will once again place His Holy Spirit with those that believed in Him. Please remember the "formula" for a "living soul." It is one part A - dust of the earth, and one part B - God's placing His Spirit / His Holiness / His Righteousness within us. Until the resurrention, these two parts have been separated.

Whether part A (our physical being) is still very much alive at the time of the resurrection, or we have indeed passed away and are in the ground, that part A is still separated from God. God's Holy Spirit / His Righteousness / His Holiness still resides in the ONLY place where it can be found - with God. We do not possess any Holiness or Righteousness apart from God placing His within us. At the time of resurrection, He will raise the dead and the living in Christ and once again create or re-create us a a "living soul."

Paul would not have been looking forward to physically dying, except that he knew, with blessed assurance that when his flesh was dead, he in spiritual body would be a living soul in the realm of heaven, the spiritual Kingdom of God where Christ is.

Personally, I do not find this in the Scriptures....and I am sure you are more well verses in both the New and the Old Testament. I agree Paul was looking forward to being with Jesus in heaven, but does he specifically say that would take place immediately after death? I don't find that at all.

All the verses that say the DEAD know nothing, speak of our mortal bodies of flesh & blood.

Totally agree.

Because when our living spirit departs our dead flesh it ascends to heaven a living soul through the power of God, the Holy Spirit in us.

But what "living spirit" are you referring to? We do not have a living spirit. We have a spirit or a sense of being, etc., but we do not have a living spirit that is separate from our physical being. The only "spirit" that WAS GIVEN TO US WAS IN THE GARDEN BY GOD WHEN HE BREATHED "HIS" HOLINESS / HIS SPIRIT / HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS INTO ADAM. But this had to be taken back once Adam sinned. Now, Adam was a living being, no longer a living soul. This is a very specific term here --- this "spirit" represents His imparting His Holiness within us... so we can be in His presences without immediately being destroyed. We do not have "His Spirit" within us after the Garden but we certainly do or are have an awareness, our own spirit of being, our personality and thought processes, etc. This are part of our "being." But it is not to be confused with HIS SPIRIT that we must have to be within His presence. There is nothing to move on....

 

[CTK]

All the verses that say the DEAD know nothing, speak of our mortal bodies of flesh & blood. Because when our living spirit departs our dead flesh it ascends to heaven a living soul through the power of God, the Holy Spirit in us. And the Holy Spirit in all who are of faith will not leave us after our body is dead, He shall be with us until we are re-united with immortal & incorruptible body fit to inhabit the new earth. The dead in Christ, as a spiritual body will return with Christ to once again give physical life to our new body. Then we will once more be body + spirit (breath of life) = complete living souls.

We do not have His Holy Spirit within us in the sense that He placed it within Adam. We are all living beings after the fall but God has made it possible for us to be with Him once again --- but only if we declare He is the Messiah and Lord and Savior of our lives. If we make this declaration. He will send His Holy Spirit within our hearts and minds to give us the power to obey His commands and walk in His ways while we are on this earth. But this does not make any of us "righteous", or "Holy." That can only be consummated at the time of the resurrection. He will see or remember our sins no more at the time of the resurrection - we certainly continue to sin while on earth - even after we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior and after He has sent His Holy Spirit within us... It is yet to be consummated.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I totally agree, but I find this is one of the most misinterpreted verses in all the Bible. There is no doubt what it is telling us --- it is better to be with God than to be here on earth. But please consider the following:

This verse is telling us that Paul / we WOULD RATHER be absent from the body (dead) and to be present with the Lord. Paul would RATHER not wait around another XXX years on this earth but would certainly give us whatever remaining years on earth that he has just to be with the Lord. And that makes total sense... he knew and loved the Lord with all his heart and had a tremendous knowledge and relationship with Him.... certainly, being with his God is so much better than being on this earth.

However, consider the importance of the word "RATHER" which is almost always left out of everyone's mouth when this verse is mentioned. They assume that immediately after death, they will stand in the presence of God... but that is not what it is saying. Otherwise, all the verses in the OT and NT that specifically address that the "dead know nothing" and we will all be "resurrecte," etc., would contradict this verse or this verse would contradict all of them.... or just perhaps, we have to interpret this verse using all the words found within in and align it's meaning with all the other relevant verses in the Scriptures that speak of "after death" or the "resurrection."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those who sleep - those who are dead and in the grave..... even though they are dead, do not worry, God will bring them out of the grave at the time of the end... they too will be with Him that believed in Him. No need to bring a corpse out of the grave unless God is going to impart His Spirit within him as He did with Adam.


And why bring the dead out of the grave for those that rejected the Messiah? They are already dead... did their "spirit" also leave them and go to be with God? If not, where did this spirit go to? It certainly could not enter heaven since no sin can exist in the presence of God....and there is no purgatory or holding place for an unrepentent spirit of a dead person.... to me it just doesn't work and I don't find this at all in the Scriptures - yet, it is indeed found in ALMOST ALL of "today's accepted interpretations." I don't know when this started... it may have been started or preached aggressively by the RCC after the Reformation period....

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I agree... this is referring to those who will still be alive when the Messiah returns. And notice the words used.... "they shall be "raised incorruptible," meaning those dead bodies, those filthy rags will be given the Holiness of God as they are raised to meet with Him. He will once again marry our bodies with His Holy Spirit / His Holiness / His righteousness --- for only those that have placed their faith and trust in Him. He is not marrying OUR spirit with our bodies.... we had no holiness of our own when we died.

We, who have been made alive through Christ, have no more fear of death. Because death cannot take away our everlasting life we have through Him. Our physical flesh is NOT us. It is what Paul calls a tabernacle, or outward form that houses out spirit. Because in Christ we are spiritual body that shall outwardly made new again, glorified when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again. Then our body with spirit as living soul will be where there is no more hell (grave) and no more death.

We, who have been made alive through Christ, have no more fear of death. Because death cannot take away our everlasting life we have through Him. Our physical flesh is NOT us. It is what Paul calls a tabernacle, or outward form that houses out spirit. Because in Christ we are spiritual body that shall outwardly made new again, glorified when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again. Then our body with spirit as living soul will be where there is no more hell (grave) and no more death.

Totally agree. Once again, God will create us a "living soul" by marrying our body with His Holiness so we can be in His presence forever. Everything has now come full circle. He created Adam by imputing His Holy Spirit within him at creation. Now, He will re-create us in the same way He created Adam... His entire plan of salvation since the beginning of the world was to restore HIS HOLINESS / HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS / HIS SPIRIT back into the dust of the earth.


And although this is not part of the discussion, it is my belief that this is exactly the reason why Satan rebelled and decieived Adam and Eve. Lucifer was the most brilliant, talented, powerful, most unbelievable angel created by God. All of the other angels must have been in awe of him..... however, all of a sudden, God decided to create a new world - and in that world, a place called earth where He would take the dirt of this place and create a human being. Certainly, this human, made out of mere dust, was absolutely nothing for Lucifer to worry about or even give a second thought about -- he was still second only to God Himself.

However, God did something that He did not due with ANY OTHER ANGEL INCLUDING LUCIFER. He breathed into this "dust" His own Holiness, His own Holy Spirit, His own Righteousness. The angels, including Lucifer were not given this unbelievable gift... no matter how beautiful, powerful, talented, etc., they were made... they had NO righteousness of God placed within them.

This was something Lucifer could not accept. This lonely simple being made of dust was given such a gift from God and he was not given this gift? This was unacceptable and he knew if he could make this thing (Adam) disobey God, this gift would be taken away from him since sin and God cannot be together or coexist. It would a permanent separation of His gift and God... great plan, easy, peazy, were are done here! That is, until God would reveal His plan to restore us to His presence. He had designed a plan to restore His Holiness / His righteousnes / His Holy Spirit back into this Adam once again. And Satan would do everything in his power to try and get these people to disobey their God and remain in sin forever.

 

[CTK]

Please read the New Testament which teaches that the church made up of Christian Jews and Gentiles are His chosen people.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

When Paul said "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" who do you think he was talking about?

Who are the chosen people in these passages:

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

1 Thessalonians 1: Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you. 2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Thank you and if you do not mind, I would like to try and respond to this latter this evening.... thanks.

 

[CTK]

This is a fundamental error.

Who is the true Israel of God?
Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It cannot be just those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behaviour, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10

It was always possible for foreigners to become an Israelite, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant:
Leviticus 19:33-34…foreigners are to be treated as native born among you…..
Isaiah 56:1-8….foreigners who give their allegiance to Me will be acceptable in My House of Prayer…..I shall add them to those who are already gathered.

Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is accepted into the House of Israel. Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18

So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:
1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. Nobody today, has proof of ancestry back to Abraham .
2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.
3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17

Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Cor. 1:20
So now all we Christians, in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel.

Jews have been cut off, but can be grafted back, as individual Christian believers. Bible prophecy proves that only a remnant will do that. Ezekiel 6:1-14, Zechariah 13:7-9, Romans 9:27

WE Christians are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8
This truth that: all righteous Christians are the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. Jewish Israel have been broken off from the Olive Tree and can only be grafted back, by having Christian faith.

The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27. Romans 9:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:24-26

Thank you for your comments and if you do not mind, I will try and respond to your comments latter this evening. Thanks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you and if you do not mind, I would like to try and respond to this latter this evening.... thanks.

No, I don't mind. I have no certain expectations of how long it should take for someone to respond, if they decide to respond at all. Thanks.

 

[CTK]

Please read the New Testament which teaches that the church made up of Christian Jews and Gentiles are His chosen people.

There is no question that those Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah (after the cross) were commissioned to go out into the world (both in Judah, Samaria and the Gentile world) to preach the Good News. And they were immensely successful despite all the perscution that was placed upon them.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

When Paul said "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" who do you think he was talking about?

Who are the chosen people in these passages:

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Again, totally agree.

1 Thessalonians 1: Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you. 2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Totally agree.

This is the end of Part 1... please see Part 2 for the narrative.

 

[CTK]

No, I don't mind. I have no certain expectations of how long it should take for someone to respond, if they decide to respond at all. Thanks.

Part 2

So, how can I totally agree with you yet claim the Jews are His chosen people at the same time? Doesn't make sense! I believe it may be because how I am looking at them, or I am looking at them differently, not just through the lens of being saved as a Christian or not..... which of course, you pointed out does not depend on being a Jew or Greek.


However, it was God who selected Abraham to begin His priestly nation. He was not a Jew... Isaac was not a Jew, Jacob was not a Jew but his name was changed to Israel and of course had 12 children - one named Judah. But through his lineage, God would cause a special people to come forth where He would reveal that He was the One and only true God. There is no other. He would give them His laws and commands to obey - both ceremonial and moral laws and commands. They were given this knowledge to read, study and learn and adopt in their every waking moments. They were to separate themselves from the pagan world and maintain this very difficult way of life - an unworldly way of life unlike the rest of the pagan world.

Although they were to keep themselves separate from on the pagans, they were also required to go out into the pagan world and teach / preach their One true God to them so they might be saved. But they did not do that... they kept themselves separate in every way including keeping this One true God to themselves. BUT THIS IS WHY THEY WERE CHOSEN BY GOD. Certainly not because they were better than others, bigger, stronger, etc., but because God had selected Abraham to begin His priestly nation for this one purpose. That selection process cannot be reversed... it will always be.... they were and will always be His chosen people where He would establish a special relationship with .... and if you look throughout the Tanakh, there is certainly no other peoples that had such a special relationship with God or interacted with their God, or God had revealed Himself so often and in so many ways with these same people..... Clearly, He had a special relationship with them... and always will!


Now, despite having this special relationship with His people, His demands on them were clearly too much for them. There is no way that anyone, any human being could keep His 10 commandments for one hour or one day on this earth. We are indeed a fallen creature incapable of meeting His holy requirements - because there is absolutely NO holiness, righteousness in any one of us for one second of one day - the only place we will find "holiness or righteousness" is in God.... period! And the only time He placed that in mankind was in the Garden with Adam at the time of his creation.... and he still disobeyed God.

Therefore, God knew from the foundation of the world that Abraham's children would be chosen and they had no ability to keep His laws and commands and they would constantly fail.... but that is the assignment He placed on them. I don't believe anyone would ever want to be placed in a position where the assignment was impossible to complete yet that is what has been asked of you.

Further, they were partially blinded from recognizing their Messiah when He arrived to fulfill His God given mission mentioned in 9:24. Again, not only were His chosen people unable to live one minute perfectly under His laws and commands, but now they are being divinely blindfolded so they will not recognize the One who has placed all of these laws and commands on them.

All of this was known / designed by God before the foundation of the world. Any His chosen people were given this impossible assignment and blinded to their Messiah so the Gentiles of the world would also be saved by this One true God. Personally, I cannot believe the price they had to pay that would give us the opportunity to be saved. But it is this manner that I use the word "chosen" people for they have been given a very impossible assignment by their God.

Finally, as a result of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah (again, partially blinded), they would be severely punished for over 2000 years. God would become "desolate" to His people - His chosen people for what is termed the "Time of the Gentiles." Once again, their punishment is beyond what anyone would want.... but they are paying the price so we can be saved - this is His plan of salvation.

As it is mentioned in both the OT and the NT, there is neither Jew nor Greek in regards to our "salvation." However, none of this has changed the definition of the Jews being His chosen people. And further, God clearly tells us that He will NEVER abandone His people (those same chosen people)... and this speaks to those after the cross.

God has still one very important mission for His chosen people to complete and it can ONLY be completed by them... It is not a mission that can be fulfilled by any Gentile, no matter if He is a believer of Jesus or not, and it cannot be fulfilled by God. It must be fulfilled by His people and that pertains to the last 3.5 years of the 4th Great Jubilee cycle. As you are aware, the 4th GJ cycle is 490 years long and it started the exact same time as the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Thus, they were both scheduled to end at the very same time - the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy or at the end of the last week - exactly 3.5 years after the cross.

Because of their decision / actions against their Messiah, the counting of the 4th GJ cycle would stop. They were no longer in good standing with their God. Consequently, the actual number of years completed for the 4th and final GJ cycle was exactly 486.5 years - 3.5 years short of the 490 years. At the end of the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle, God would arrive to be with His people. Unfortunately, the clock had stopped and it has been some 1994 years (2024 - 30) that this clock has been stuck at 486.5 years. It can ONLY begin to run again when the Jews are back in good standing with their God. But that cannot happen as long as they continue to reject Him as they did in the first century. And this is where God comes in... He will, just as He did with Paul, divinely give them a "Damascus" like experience and remove the blindness from their eyes. This will occur when God deems the "Times of the Gentiles" is over. At that time, His chosen people will go out into the world no different that Paul and preach the Good News to the world. This will be the true Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus ... it will not sound like the false gospel preached today by the little horn (RCC), but through the eyes and ears of His people - from the Tanakh to Revelation. They will preach for exactly 3.5 years and this will bring in the return of Jesus.

So, in this manner, I refer to them as His chosen people.... they will always be in His plans to the very end of time.

 

[CTK]

This is a fundamental error.

Who is the true Israel of God?
Who are the legitimate heirs of God’s promises? It cannot be just those who claim to be descendants of Jacob, such as the citizens of the modern State of Israel, or the many people groups who assert they are the ‘lost tribes’, etc.

The true Israelites of God are those individuals who meet the Covenant conditions, who by belief in God and in their moral and ethical behaviour, prove they belong to Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10

It was always possible for foreigners to become an Israelite, therefore parentage and actual descent is irrelevant:
Leviticus 19:33-34…foreigners are to be treated as native born among you…..
Isaiah 56:1-8….foreigners who give their allegiance to Me will be acceptable in My House of Prayer…..I shall add them to those who are already gathered.

Jesus said: Other sheep I must gather….John 19:16 and the Apostles made it clear that it is only by righteousness and faith that anyone is accepted into the House of Israel. Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 2:11-18

So to determine who qualifies as an Israelite person of God, we know:
1/ They cannot be determined by natural descent from Abraham, or more specifically, from Jacob. Nobody today, has proof of ancestry back to Abraham .
2/ They cannot become an Israelite by conversion to Judaism.
3/ Any person can become an Israelite of God by faith in Him, obedience to His Laws and the acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. John 3:16-17

Jesus is the ‘root and tree trunk’ of Israel. Paul said that the promises made to Abraham were to one Person and they are all ‘yes’ in Christ. Galatians 3:16, 2 Cor. 1:20
So now all we Christians, in Christ as His friends and working with Him, are now the branches of the ‘olive tree’ of the true Israel.

Jews have been cut off, but can be grafted back, as individual Christian believers. Bible prophecy proves that only a remnant will do that. Ezekiel 6:1-14, Zechariah 13:7-9, Romans 9:27

WE Christians are all true born again people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8
This truth that: all righteous Christians are the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, destroys the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. Jewish Israel have been broken off from the Olive Tree and can only be grafted back, by having Christian faith.

The prophesies about Judah, the Jewish people, are clear: only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:13, Luke 19:27. Romans 9:27 They have set up their own religion and refuse to acknowledge Jesus. Romans 10:1-4

It will be all the true, righteous Christian people that will inherit the holy Land and they are the people who will display God’s glory and be His witnesses to the nations, in the last few years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 49:8-13, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:24-26

Thanks for your response and waiting for mine... I would kindly ask that you read my last / recent response to Spiritual Israelite - parst 1 and 2 in #'s 128 and 129. I believe it might address your response as well, thanks.

 

[grafted branch]

Unfortunately, the clock had stopped and it has been some 1994 years (2024 - 30) that this clock has been stuck at 486.5 years.

They will preach for exactly 3.5 years and this will bring in the return of Jesus.

I agree with looking at the jubilee cycle and seeing the importance of the 490 year cycle but when you place a gap in the cycle that’s where I see issues.

If the clock stopped then the Genesis 1:14 ordinance of the sun and moon being used for seasons, days, and years is not being followed which then causes the Jeremiah 31:36 promise of Israel ceasing from being a nation before God, forever, to be fulfilled.

Another issue I see is if the Jews have a Damascus event that restarts the clock with exactly 3.5 years till Christ returns then after that event people will be able to calculate the exact day that Christ returns which seems to be in conflict with Matthew 24:36, of that day and hour knoweth no man.

 

[rwb]

First, thank you very much for your comments and thoughts... I certainly agree with you and enjoy reading them. The above comment is quite true but I believe the key here is that "whosoever...." meaning, the only way one will not die (second death) is if they believe and have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. We will all die once, but we do not want to be in the second death.

I think this passage might confirm my first statement - "though they were dead......" all will die, but on the day of resurrection.... they shall live."

Agree with you! But all physically will die and their body goes into the ground. At the time of resurrection, all will be brought out from the grave and those who have accepted Jesus, God will once again place His Spirit back into him and he will once again be a "living soul.' Without God placing His Holy Spirit back into us, there will not be a "soul" or a "living soul" that can stand in His presence.

Totally agree with you, but the "life" as a "living soul" will not be consumated until the resurrection when God will once again place His Holy Spirit with those that believed in Him. Please remember the "formula" for a "living soul." It is one part A - dust of the earth, and one part B - God's placing His Spirit / His Holiness / His Righteousness within us. Until the resurrention, these two parts have been separated.

Whether part A (our physical being) is still very much alive at the time of the resurrection, or we have indeed passed away and are in the ground, that part A is still separated from God. God's Holy Spirit / His Righteousness / His Holiness still resides in the ONLY place where it can be found - with God. We do not possess any Holiness or Righteousness apart from God placing His within us. At the time of resurrection, He will raise the dead and the living in Christ and once again create or re-create us a a "living soul."

Personally, I do not find this in the Scriptures....and I am sure you are more well verses in both the New and the Old Testament. I agree Paul was looking forward to being with Jesus in heaven, but does he specifically say that would take place immediately after death? I don't find that at all.

Totally agree.

But what "living spirit" are you referring to? We do not have a living spirit. We have a spirit or a sense of being, etc., but we do not have a living spirit that is separate from our physical being. The only "spirit" that WAS GIVEN TO US WAS IN THE GARDEN BY GOD WHEN HE BREATHED "HIS" HOLINESS / HIS SPIRIT / HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS INTO ADAM. But this had to be taken back once Adam sinned. Now, Adam was a living being, no longer a living soul. This is a very specific term here --- this "spirit" represents His imparting His Holiness within us... so we can be in His presences without immediately being destroyed. We do not have "His Spirit" within us after the Garden but we certainly do or are have an awareness, our own spirit of being, our personality and thought processes, etc. This are part of our "being." But it is not to be confused with HIS SPIRIT that we must have to be within His presence. There is nothing to move on....

When Christ says that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall not die, He meant it! It is only by believing that mankind is alive because they are clothed in flesh & bone that one might believe eternal life lasts only as long our body breathes. It is not our physical body that gives us life, neither physical, nor spiritual. It is our breath of life [spirit] that gives physical life to our natural physical body, and it is the Holy Spirit that gives eternal life to our natural spirit, taking us from being dead in trespasses and sins to being alive in Christ. When our spirit is made alive through the Holy Spirit in us we SHALL NEVER DIE! Because our natural body of flesh is NOT us. Our natural body is simply the conduit that houses our spirit, which is what we are when we are born again.

To be born again means that we have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive through the Holy Spirit in us. We who were dead, are now alive forevermore!

Christ says eternal and everlasting life that we might know that we, as spirit shall never die. Eternal and everlasting life is not defined as you have defined it.

 

[rwb]

We do not have His Holy Spirit within us in the sense that He placed it within Adam.

Yes, we do, when we have been born again from above. The same Spirit (breath of life) that made Adam's body alive (a living soul), is the Spirit that quickens (makes alive) our spirit (mind, heart, will, emotions) that before new birth is dead in trespasses and sins.

At creation humans alone were created in the likeness and image of God. But after the fall the spirit (mind, heart, will, emotions) became like that of the voice they heeded in the garden, who brought sin and death through sin into creation. That being the spirit of Satan, the liar and murderer from the beginning. (Jo 8:44)

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

This verse is telling us that Paul / we WOULD RATHER be absent from the body (dead) and to be present with the Lord. Paul would RATHER not wait around another XXX years on this earth but would certainly give us whatever remaining years on earth that he has just to be with the Lord. And that makes total sense... he knew and loved the Lord with all his heart and had a tremendous knowledge and relationship with Him.... certainly, being with his God is so much better than being on this earth.

This appears to be reading a preconceived opinion into the text. Because that is NOT what Paul says.

In the following passage, Paul, without doubting, is certain that when his body of flesh is dead that he would be with Christ in heaven. Of course from other places in Scripture, we understand that his presence with the Lord in heaven would not be in physical form. Rather absent from the body and present with the Lord as spiritual body in heaven.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

And why bring the dead out of the grave for those that rejected the Messiah? They are already dead... did their "spirit" also leave them and go to be with God? If not, where did this spirit go to? It certainly could not enter heaven since no sin can exist in the presence of God....and there is no purgatory or holding place for an unrepentent spirit of a dead person.... to me it just doesn't work and I don't find this at all in the Scriptures - yet, it is indeed found in ALMOST ALL of "today's accepted interpretations." I don't know when this started... it may have been started or preached aggressively by the RCC after the Reformation period....

It is we, a spiritual body of faithful saints that return from heaven with the Lord to give our resurrected body of flesh physical life again. Because the life we have in Christ is ETERNAL. As spiritual body, living souls, we live on with Christ in heaven until the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer and Christ returns. It is through the Spirit of Christ in us that believers as spiritual body, still living souls go to be with the Lord in heaven. Because we have assurance from Christ that His Spirit shall be with us until that which was purchased (our physical body) is resurrected immortal & incorruptible.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[WPM]

Part 2

So, how can I totally agree with you yet claim the Jews are His chosen people at the same time? Doesn't make sense! I believe it may be because how I am looking at them, or I am looking at them differently, not just through the lens of being saved as a Christian or not..... which of course, you pointed out does not depend on being a Jew or Greek.


However, it was God who selected Abraham to begin His priestly nation. He was not a Jew... Isaac was not a Jew, Jacob was not a Jew but his name was changed to Israel and of course had 12 children - one named Judah. But through his lineage, God would cause a special people to come forth where He would reveal that He was the One and only true God. There is no other. He would give them His laws and commands to obey - both ceremonial and moral laws and commands. They were given this knowledge to read, study and learn and adopt in their every waking moments. They were to separate themselves from the pagan world and maintain this very difficult way of life - an unworldly way of life unlike the rest of the pagan world.

Although they were to keep themselves separate from on the pagans, they were also required to go out into the pagan world and teach / preach their One true God to them so they might be saved. But they did not do that... they kept themselves separate in every way including keeping this One true God to themselves. BUT THIS IS WHY THEY WERE CHOSEN BY GOD. Certainly not because they were better than others, bigger, stronger, etc., but because God had selected Abraham to begin His priestly nation for this one purpose. That selection process cannot be reversed... it will always be.... they were and will always be His chosen people where He would establish a special relationship with .... and if you look throughout the Tanakh, there is certainly no other peoples that had such a special relationship with God or interacted with their God, or God had revealed Himself so often and in so many ways with these same people..... Clearly, He had a special relationship with them... and always will!


Now, despite having this special relationship with His people, His demands on them were clearly too much for them. There is no way that anyone, any human being could keep His 10 commandments for one hour or one day on this earth. We are indeed a fallen creature incapable of meeting His holy requirements - because there is absolutely NO holiness, righteousness in any one of us for one second of one day - the only place we will find "holiness or righteousness" is in God.... period! And the only time He placed that in mankind was in the Garden with Adam at the time of his creation.... and he still disobeyed God.

Therefore, God knew from the foundation of the world that Abraham's children would be chosen and they had no ability to keep His laws and commands and they would constantly fail.... but that is the assignment He placed on them. I don't believe anyone would ever want to be placed in a position where the assignment was impossible to complete yet that is what has been asked of you.

There are so many points that you are wrong on here that it is difficult to know where to start.

Hello! Breaking news: we have entered the new covenant. The old is gone forever. Race means nothing today. It is all about grace. The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

• We have moved from the old to the new covenant. The rules have therefore changed.
• We are not going back to racial favor.
• People who reject Christ are not God's chosen or His children, they are children of the devil.

The only way your arguments are sustained are by removing the whole New Testament teaching on this subject from off the table.

There has only ever been one people of God. We have been grafted into faithful Israel. You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

The fact is, there is (and only has been) one people of God from the beginning. Whilst they were largely found within the nation of Israel before the cross, that was broadened out after the cross to embrace all nations. Race means nothing under the new covenant. The New Testament outlines clearly and repeatedly that "there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

 

[CTK]

I agree with looking at the jubilee cycle and seeing the importance of the 490 year cycle but when you place a gap in the cycle that’s where I see issues.

If the clock stopped then the Genesis 1:14 ordinance of the sun and moon being used for seasons, days, and years is not being followed which then causes the Jeremiah 31:36 promise of Israel ceasing from being a nation before God, forever, to be fulfilled.

Another issue I see is if the Jews have a Damascus event that restarts the clock with exactly 3.5 years till Christ returns then after that event people will be able to calculate the exact day that Christ returns which seems to be in conflict with Matthew 24:36, of that day and hour knoweth no man.

Thanks and nice comments! In each of the 4 Great Jubilee’s there have been “unreckoned” years - years when Israel was not in “good standing” with their God. For example, from the 2nd to the 3rd GJ cycle, there was 560 literal years between them. This was comprised of 490 years when they were in covenant with God and 70 years were they were not (exile) and these were not counted toward the GJ Sabbatical cycle.

But the sun, moon, seasons did not change or was affected. In fact, it was in 457 BC, exactly 80 years after Cyrus decreed they could return to Jerusalem, when the 4th GJ Sabbatical cycle would begin. So the 7, 49, and 490 years Sabbatical cycles continued. The clock for the counting of the 3rd GJ Sabbatical cycle did not “re-start” until his decree in 537/6 BC.

Regarding your comment on knowing the exact time of His return - that is another good comment. But I am not sure that violates the statement that “we cannot know the hour of His return.” First, I believe Jesus was telling us only the Father knew the timing, He was speaking as a “man” not as God. It was a teaching lesson to remind us to always be in covenant with God, we can never know when He will return OR when are life will end and have no more time to change our decision to accept Jesus and obey His laws and commands. We must always be ready.

But the 3.5 years period is definitely required to complete the 4th GJ Sabbatical cycle. Secondly, even if we do not consider this 3.5 year time period, we certainly know when He will return - He has to return on the 5th Festival- the Day of Trumpets. The 4 Spring Feast Days were fulfilled at His first coming and the final 3 will / must be fulfilled at His second coming. The blowing of the Trumpets will bring in His return. So, one could say that we already know when He will return- on the Day of Trumpets. Even though we can count down the year of that day, we still do not know the “actual day / hour” because, even at that time, we do not know when the full moon will come … and begin the new month.

But I do believe God was really telling us not to try and predict His return… but always be ready for it. We never know when we will pass… and then it would be too late…

 

[CTK]

When Christ says that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall not die, He meant it! It is only by believing that mankind is alive because they are clothed in flesh & bone that one might believe eternal life lasts only as long our body breathes. It is not our physical body that gives us life, neither physical, nor spiritual. It is our breath of life [spirit] that gives physical life to our natural physical body, and it is the Holy Spirit that gives eternal life to our natural spirit, taking us from being dead in trespasses and sins to being alive in Christ. When our spirit is made alive through the Holy Spirit in us we SHALL NEVER DIE! Because our natural body of flesh is NOT us. Our natural body is simply the conduit that houses our spirit, which is what we are when we are born again.

To be born again means that we have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive through the Holy Spirit in us. We who were dead, are now alive forevermore!

Christ says eternal and everlasting life that we might know that we, as spirit shall never die. Eternal and everlasting life is not defined as you have defined it.

I don’t disagree with you … again, it’s believe it is just looking at it differently.

God will send His Holy Spirit within us should we place our faith in the Messiah. This does not mean He has placed His Holiness or His righteousness within us. It does mean His Holy Spirit will empower us to obey His Word and walk in His way while we are still on the earth. But when we are “born again” we are His, and unless we decide to turn away from Him AFTER we are “born again,” which unfortunately, we have all become aware of some well known Christians who became atheists, God will not see or remember our sins.

I don’t think anyone would claim that because they were “born again” they would no longer commit sin or that they were now “a living soul” who had God’s righteousness and Holiness already within him. That can only take place at the resurrection. Remember, God said He will raise us up in our “glorified bodies.” We have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior but we are not glorified- that will not happen until the resurrection. He will place His Holiness / His Spirit / His Righteousness within our raised body to he with Him.

I keep using all three terms (Holiness, Righteousness and Spirit) to distinguish this from our common use of the word “spirit.”

We breathe air no differently than the animals of the earth. This is not a definition of “spirit”. This term must be viewed from His point of view not ours. We think of “spirit” as our awareness that is apart from our purely physical being, but that is not what / or how God views that “Spirit” that He breathed / placed into Adam at His creation. That was His Holiness … we do not have any Holiness within us because we lost it when we sinned.

His plan of salvation is to restore HIS Holiness / HIS Holy Spirit / His Righteousness back into us to be with Him …

I attempted to get this extremely difficult view across by using sin as an analogy. Even after we receive the Holy Spirit, we still will sin. God has not removed our sin nature. He has not removed our ability to sin. But we are still saved … He has given us the power to not sin and to obey Him … as much as we desire… some seek the power of the Holy Spirit more than others. But we will not be perfected until we are resurrected and God places His Holiness back into us.

 

[CTK]

There are so many points that you are wrong on here that it is difficult to know where to start.

Hello! Breaking news: we have entered the new covenant. The old is gone forever. Race means nothing today. It is all about grace. The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

Agree.

• We have moved from the old to the new covenant. The rules have therefore changed.
• We are not going back to racial favor.
• People who reject Christ are not God's chosen or His children, they are children of the devil.

Agree.

The only way your arguments are sustained are by removing the whole New Testament teaching on this subject from off the table.

Disagree. There is nothing in the NT that contradicts any verse in the OT. All, both Jew and Greek can find salvation through the Messiah. There is no other way. We are both standing on the same footing (I think I may have already stated that). If a Jew or a Greek rejects the Messiah, they will not be saved.

There has only ever been one people of God. We have been grafted into faithful Israel. You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

I don’t see how you can say that. I have already stated that there is only one way for salvation and that applies to everyone- whether they are of a Jewish Origen or any other nationality.

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Agree.

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

Agree.

The fact is, there is (and only has been) one people of God from the beginning. Whilst they were largely found within the nation of Israel before the cross, that was broadened out after the cross to embrace all nations. Race means nothing under the new covenant. The New Testament outlines clearly and repeatedly that "there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Once again, I agree. There is nothing that I said that disagrees with your statements.

The ONLY thing I can TRY to understand why you think I am saying something very different than what you are claiming (and also what is clearly in the NT), might have to do with THEIR END TIME MISSION when God will remove the blindness from their eyes and restore their relationship with Him once again.

Also, in my previous response, I sincerely attempted to distinguish the idea that the Jews were / are no better than any other peoples of the world. And that the word “chosen” did not refer to their superiority but rather to their “mission” given to them by God. They were definitely “chosen” to be His priests to go out into the world to teach / preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the world as the One and only true God.

But all of this does not mean that God has not put into His plan of salvation their “final mission.” This does not conflict with the many verses you provided about their is neither Jew nor Greek, etc. It simply means He has an end time mission for them to fulfill.

 

[grafted branch]

For example, from the 2nd to the 3rd GJ cycle, there was 560 literal years between them. This was comprised of 490 years when they were in covenant with God and 70 years were they were not (exile) and these were not counted toward the GJ Sabbatical cycle.

Ok, I would like to take a closer look at the GJ cycle and why I don’t think there has been any gaps in that cycle.

If we start with the 15th day of Abib 1444 BC (you might disagree with this exact date) as a jubilee year when Israel left Egypt then we can count down all the jubilee years, we can see that there are no gaps, they continue one after the other.

Do you see the Exodus as a Jubilee year?

 

[rwb]

Ok, I would like to take a closer look at the GJ cycle and why I don’t think there has been any gaps in that cycle.

If we start with the 15th day of Abib 1444 BC (you might disagree with this exact date) as a jubilee year when Israel left Egypt then we can count down all the jubilee years, we can see that there are no gaps, they continue one after the other.

Do you see the Exodus as a Jubilee year?

Grafted branch, you might find the following link interesting. It uses the Bible to prove a kind of grid exists that runs throughout Scripture, and goes in-depth on Daniel 9 prophecy that leads to Christ.

The Atonement Clock.

 

[WPM]

Agree.


Agree.


Disagree. There is nothing in the NT that contradicts any verse in the OT. All, both Jew and Greek can find salvation through the Messiah. There is no other way. We are both standing on the same footing (I think I may have already stated that). If a Jew or a Greek rejects the Messiah, they will not be saved.

I don’t see how you can say that. I have already stated that there is only one way for salvation and that applies to everyone- whether they are of a Jewish Origen or any other nationality.


Agree.

Agree.


Once again, I agree. There is nothing that I said that disagrees with your statements.

The ONLY thing I can TRY to understand why you think I am saying something very different than what you are claiming (and also what is clearly in the NT), might have to do with THEIR END TIME MISSION when God will remove the blindness from their eyes and restore their relationship with Him once again.

Also, in my previous response, I sincerely attempted to distinguish the idea that the Jews were / are no better than any other peoples of the world. And that the word “chosen” did not refer to their superiority but rather to their “mission” given to them by God. They were definitely “chosen” to be His priests to go out into the world to teach / preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the world as the One and only true God.

But all of this does not mean that God has not put into His plan of salvation their “final mission.” This does not conflict with the many verses you provided about their is neither Jew nor Greek, etc. It simply means He has an end time mission for them to fulfill.

Maybe you would give us NT Scripture that teaches "THEIR END TIME MISSION." You saying it means nothing. To me, the NT is not about race, it is about grace. The focus is no longer ethnic Israel, a physical temple or earthly Jerusalem, it is about the international people of God both Jew and Gentile reaching a fallen world with the truth.