Revelation - chapters 19 and 20

[Davidpt]

If you want to go in that direction, keep in mind that Adam wasn’t deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Some people interpret this verse as Adam knowingly taking on sin in order to cleave to his wife.

While that is true about Adam it is not equally true about Eve. I see it being irrelevant per Revelation 20:7-9 the fact those verses tell us everyone meant in verse 8, satan deceives them all, and not just some of them. Therefore, it would be similar to what satan did to Eve in the beginning but not similar to Adam's participation since he wasn't deceived. Why then did he also eat? Pretty simple. It's because he loved his wife and couldn't imagine living apart from her, so, if she's going down, so to speak, then so am I. And that both of these were obviously in God's presence and saw Him face to face, yet Eve was tempted by satan then deceived.

What we have to keep in mind about Revelation 20 is that the idea is, you generally deceive someone not already deceived, or are no longer deceived, rather than someone who is already deceived. Per Amil, if the millennium is now, the fact these in verse 8 are not meaning the saved during the millennium if they are attacking the saved after the millennium, this contradicts that you deceive someone not already deceived rather than someone already deceived.

Per Premil no one is any longer deceived the fact Christ and His resurrected saints are ruling the entire planet during the millennium. Per Amil all these meant in verse 8 would already be deceived during the millennium the fact they are meaning the lost not the saved. They are also meaning the lost per Premil during the millennium, except they are no longer deceived during the millennium but are deceived after the millennium. At least Premil has these no longer being deceived during the millennium, which then makes sense out of them being deceived after the millennium. As opposed to Amil that has all of these already deceived during the millennium which then doesn't make sense that they are deceived again after the millennium if they are already deceived during the millennium.

 

[grafted branch]

What we have to keep in mind about Revelation 20 is that the idea is, you generally deceive someone not already deceived, or are no longer deceived, rather than someone who is already deceived. Per Amil, if the millennium is now, the fact these in verse 8 are not meaning the saved during the millennium if they are attacking the saved after the millennium, this contradicts that you deceive someone not already deceived rather than someone already deceived.

If we start with a definition for the word deceive and everyone can agree on that definition then that would be a good place to start.

From Webster, to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.

If someone already believes something is false that really is true, then yea, even if that person has a change in their view but still concludes that thing is false, we wouldn’t say that person was re-deceived, we would say that person is still deceived.

I personally don’t completely agree with the Amil view so I don’t want to comment on how in particular they view Satan deceiving or not deceiving.

 

[Davidpt]

If we start with a definition for the word deceive and everyone can agree on that definition then that would be a good place to start.

From Webster, to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.

If someone already believes something is false that really is true, then yea, even if that person has a change in their view but still concludes that thing is false, we wouldn’t say that person was re-deceived, we would say that person is still deceived.

I personally don’t completely agree with the Amil view so I don’t want to comment on how in particular they view Satan deceiving or not deceiving.

@TribulationSigns provided a possible solution that I tend to think could be valid, except most Amils are not on board with his solution. Especially if they are of the 'OSAS only' camp. But even those of the 'NOSAS' don't appear to be on board with his solution. Yet, his solution makes perfect sense assuming Amil is the correct position.

My take on it, maybe not his, would mean in the final years of the millennium, those that were saved during the millennium, thus are no longer deceived, that they fall away after the millennium, thus are deceived again. Initially they are deceived. Then they are no longer deceived, thus they are saved. Then after the millennium they fall away and are no longer saved, thus are deceived yet again. Thus, those saved during the millennium switch sides after the millennium and now in the beast's armies rather than in Christ's armies. Either that or Premil is the better solution. I don't know what to think anymore, the fact I'm of the NOSAS camp. I just don't see NOSAS agreeing with the first resurrection if it's to be understood as Amils insist it should be. And that I'm not going to denounce NOSAS in order to become an Amil. If NOSAS can't logically work with Amil's interpretation of the 1st resurrection, then Amil simply can't be true to begin with no matter how somewhat convincing what @TribulationSigns argued appears to be.

 

[Taken]

How can that be though? Wouldn’t people in the millennium be keeping track of time and know the exact date that the millennium will end and Satan be loosed?

* millennial Beginning…People will be God believing.
* group “leaders” will pilgrimage to JERUSALEM yearly…
* Nations established..
* Population increase.
* Generations pass away.
* Bit by bit …group / Nations Governors…will stop Pilgrimages…Citizens prospering will become less and less Governed according to Gods Ways…and the People less and less in consideration of God being an influence in their lives…and the same filtered down to their offsprings, and society at Large….

Much Like How the World is Today…

Crops will begin Failing….Strife and anxiousness among the Nations..

Also like this world today, Crop, Food issues, illnesses from Foods, etc..

The Remnant of Believing Mortals left to repopulate the earth…according to Gods WAY…does not take long For…people (who are prosperous) to Fall away from God…and the following generations to follow suit…

observe Today’s majority youth of the last 50 years…Prime interest in learning Gods Word? Knowing who God is? Praising and worshiping Him? …even having a Wonderment or thought or Interest of Him?
Massive Decline.

It does not not take long to “indoctrinate a generation” to reject God, ignore Him and even speak against Him.

Surprisingly Child kidnappers, can completely transform a child (particularity without a godly foundation) into submission within weeks or a few months…

Satan only has a short season to convince the Nations to attack Christs Kingdom…and the worlds generations at large will have become steadily falling away and primed to fall for Satan’s Deceit.
The world will be no more rushing to be saved…than they were when the great flood came, now, (as few preach and the majority scoffs), nor in those last days of the millennium.

Glory to God,
Taken








2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If Satan is completely incapacitated during the millennium then the light of the gospel is shining on everyone and Revelation 20:9 is part of the gospel. From Matthew 24:24 we know it’s impossible to deceive the elect, so I suppose the number of unsaved during the millennium would be as the sands of the sea yet they would know without a doubt that they will be devoured by fire, right?

Currently most people don’t act this way. I know without a doubt if I light a match and hold my hand directly over it I will be burned. I don’t do that because my basic instincts tell me I will harm myself. We could say some people do currently harm themselves but that only happens because they are deceived.

I can currently know without a doubt that when I light a match, after that point in time, I have the potential to be burned and I take the necessary steps to prevent that. Why can’t people in the millennium, who are in number as the sands of the sea, take the necessary step of becoming a believer prior to the end of the millennium? After all they would no doubt be keeping track of how many days are left till the millennium was over. People can still become saved during the millennium, right?
[/QUOTE]

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is certainly a very difficult set of verses to unpack and interpret. I don't understand how Satan, the beast and the false prophet can be thrown into the lake of fire, leaving those alive in the millenium to continue without any deception or spritual attacks - and then, to find that he is again released to deceive and destroy. But the beast and the false prophet are NOT released at the end of the millenium, meaning, satan does not have his physical beast, false prophets and their followers to decieve the believers. Therefore, perhaps they are not brought forward because the believers on the earth during the millenium have been given a glorified body and therefore there is no purpose in the "physical or earthy" beast or false prophets. Now, satan can attempt to go directly to the believers given their glorified presence. This then might be purposeful since this would place those believers living in the millenium in the exact same place that Adam was when he was in the Garden (full circle). This time, only satan is released from the abyss to try and tempt and decieve those in the millenium just as he did with Adam but he will fail this time, and then God would quickly send him back to the lake of fire forever.

So the release of satan is not a battle but a necessary step that brings us back to the Garden before the fall and God destroys satan. This is the only / best thought I could put together ... but what happened in the beginning will be restored at the end and many times I find that these future events - like in Daniel and now in Revelation mirror those in the Old Testament.

Well you got some things right.

But let us look at the release of Satan:

Revelation 20:7-10

King James Version

​

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

1. Satan was not thrown in the lake of fire, but the abyss.
2. Not everyone will have glorified bodies.
3. The saved survivors of the tribulation (mortal people) will enter the kingdom and repopulate the earth.
4. Isaiah tells us that one who is 100 years old will be considered like a child (young in age)
5. People will have till their 100th birthday to accept Christ in the millennial kingdom or will be killed by Jesus.
6. Teh rebellion Satan stirs after teh millennium is considered a youth rebellion (people under100 years old) for all the rest on earth will be saved.

 

[Jay Ross]

When people with poor reading comprehension abilities blows off what someone else may posts, then one knows that it is pointless to post anything that is relevant to the topic.

This is what has happened in this thread and many others like it.

One could say that posting on a Christian forum is pointless when others claim their prowess in understanding the scriptures or they stick to the understanding that they have acquired from other blind teachers.

Shalom

 

[CTK]

Well you got some things right.

But let us look at the release of Satan:

Revelation 20:7-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

1. Satan was not thrown in the lake of fire, but the abyss.
2. Not everyone will have glorified bodies.
3. The saved survivors of the tribulation (mortal people) will enter the kingdom and repopulate the earth.
4. Isaiah tells us that one who is 100 years old will be considered like a child (young in age)
5. People will have till their 100th birthday to accept Christ in the millennial kingdom or will be killed by Jesus.
6. Teh rebellion Satan stirs after teh millennium is considered a youth rebellion (people under100 years old) for all the rest on earth will be saved.

 

[Marty fox]

The bottomless pit is obviously connected to the earth. After all, look at Revelation 9, for instance. The one in verse 1 is not falling from heaven to the moon or something, then opening the pit on the moon. The earth is what is in view. The locusts, whatever they are, they come out of the earth, out of the bottomless pit. What could be meant by bottomless is that the pit is so deep that it would be impossible for anyone on the surface of the earth to discover it's depths. IOW, it is bottomless per our perspective via we dwelling on the surface of the earth and not that it is literally bottomless.

The difference is Revelation 9 states the earth Revelation 20 doesn’t

What’s the difference how come?

 

[CTK]

Well you got some things right.

But let us look at the release of Satan:

Revelation 20:7-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

1. Satan was not thrown in the lake of fire, but the abyss.
2. Not everyone will have glorified bodies.
3. The saved survivors of the tribulation (mortal people) will enter the kingdom and repopulate the earth.
4. Isaiah tells us that one who is 100 years old will be considered like a child (young in age)
5. People will have till their 100th birthday to accept Christ in the millennial kingdom or will be killed by Jesus.
6. Teh rebellion Satan stirs after teh millennium is considered a youth rebellion (people under100 years old) for all the rest on earth will be saved.

Well, its about time ...

 

[Marty fox]

Ezekiel 26:20KJV
To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

It says pit not bottomless pit

 

[Truth7t7]

It says pit not bottomless pit

Marty your grasping at flying straw in the wind again

 

[Jay Ross]

The above couple of posts prove my point in my post #86 above.

Oh well, such is life now in la la land.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty your grasping at flying straw in the wind again

How so?

If literal a pit is real a bottomless pit isn’t

 

[ewq1938]

How so?

If literal a pit is real a bottomless pit isn’t

God can't make a bottomless pit?

It's moot anyways. It doesn't say "bottomless pit" in the Greek, just one word abussos which means abyss or pit.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The bottomless pit is obviously connected to the earth. After all, look at Revelation 9, for instance. The one in verse 1 is not falling from heaven to the moon or something, then opening the pit on the moon. The earth is what is in view. The locusts, whatever they are, they come out of the earth, out of the bottomless pit. What could be meant by bottomless is that the pit is so deep that it would be impossible for anyone on the surface of the earth to discover it's depths. IOW, it is bottomless per our perspective via we dwelling on the surface of the earth and not that it is literally bottomless.

The bottomless pit is "NOT" a physical place to hold a spirit. It is not hell. It is not a spiritual base on the moon, Kola Superdeep Borehole in Russia, or anything like that. The bottomless pit represents the "dominion" Christ has over the spirit of Satan. It is merely a spiritual picture of Christ restrain Spirit of Satan from deceiving for a period as long as Christ's Church is saving people from the world.

After this, the locusts are loosed from the bottomless pit, that is a FIGURE signifying those who are of Satan coming forth on the Earth THROUGH HIS SPIRIT. Not literal or semi-literal or physical locusts out of hell with Satan as their king, but actual PEOPLE who rise up through the POWER or SPIRIT of Satan. They are simply people with the spirit of antichrist coming forth through that power of Satan.

They are (spiritually speaking) his body, just as those of the SPirit of Christ are spiritually His Body. The beast represents his carnal kingdom, those who are his children and his ministers. Satan is "personified" as this beast representing his kingdom. The Dragon, which is Satan himself, give the beast or his kingdom of people its power.

Rev 13:4
(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

This signifying Satan gives them their strength. The false prophets and christs (the beast with two horns like a lamb) will receive power of the spirit of Satan and will appear to the people of the congregaiton as the frogs, locusts, horsemen, etc. to be used by God as a judgment upon them for unfaithfulness.

Keep in mind, that these won't happen UNTIL the church finishes with its 1,260 symbolical days (the New Testament period) for salvation with all Elect secured FIRST. The false prophets and christs will "come out of the bottomless pit" as smoke locusts with power from Satan who happen to be their king. Therefore, the bottomless pit is not a physical place somewhere on Earth but signifies the spirit of Satan being idle or restrained as Christ is saving people through His Two Witnesses with salvation gospel.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Also, I remember someone who asked me how can Satan come out of the bottomless pit.

The answer is we need to refer back to the actual text again to get a better grasp on this. You might also look at verse 8 and consider circumspectly exactly what God is saying.

Revelation 17:8

• "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

So again we see the imagery of this beast illustrated as existing before this text was written, and yet how it (at the time of that writing) "was not." This is because this is after Christ had bound Satan in chains and cast that Dragon into the bottomless pit at the cross. As we read in Revelation 12 The Dragon was cast down. But here we read that at a future time this beast would ascend from out of the bottomless pit wherein he was cast. Clearly, it is sometime after this Revelation was written. And we read that ultimately the beast would go into perdition (Damnable Ruin). So how is that possible "IF" this was all simply about a latter-day phenomenon? From the text itself, the beast had to exist before Christ was born as a man, which is approximately 2000 years ago, and then it was not (as Satan was cast into the bottomless pit at that time), and would again in the future ascend "out of" that bottomless pit. Which we can read about as Satan, the great Dragon ascending from the pit in Revelation chapter 20. That can only be possible because it represents the Kingdom/Rule of Satan in the world. A kingdom that had its head (authority) wounded with a death blow that Christ dealt it at the cross so that the iniquity he instigated against God's people was restrained to allow for the building of God's church from the nations. Remember, Satan (who gives this kingdom its power) was restrained and bound in the bottomless pit at the start of the Millennial reign of Christ Kingdom. That's why it says the beast was and then it "was not!" It "was not" at the time of the writing because Satan was bound by Christ in the bottomless pit so that the nations could be evangelized (Revelation 20:2-3). Near the end of time, this beast kingdom will again be allowed to ascend out of this bottomless pit "as the locusts, frogs, horsemen, etc." and as judgment bring desolation to the unfaithful church. This is when this kingdom will once again prosper and bring about a universal apostasy, as it did in Old Testament Israel before Christ bound him and restrained his power.

Selah!

So that is how the Beast ascends out of the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit Revelation 20 tells us is where satan was bound. As scripture prophesies, when He who restrains him is taken out of the way (literally midst or middle), and then will that wicked be revealed (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). Then will the beast come out when Satan is loosed. Where? CHURCH! Satan hates the church and will do everything to bring the church down to ruin, seeking to destroy her and make her naked (spiritually her sin uncovered). It is symbolic imagery and language painting a spiritual picture. even as Adam and Eve sinned and saw their nakedness and were clothed by the skins of God's sacrifice. And here is the mind which hath wisdom (Revelation 17:9)!!

 

[ewq1938]

The bottomless pit is "NOT" a physical place to hold a spirit. It is not hell. It is not a spiritual base on the moon, Kola Superdeep Borehole in Russia, or anything like that. The bottomless pit represents the "dominion" Christ has over the spirit of Satan. It is merely a spiritual picture of Christ restrain Spirit of Satan from deceiving for a period as long as Christ's Church is saving people from the world.

Christ isn't even the one who places satan in the pit and if you were correct otherwise, there would be no need for an angel to leave heaven to accomplish this nonsense about dominion over satan's spirit anyways. You have everything completely wrong about this.


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

[Verily]

So is it the spirits of Satan's pit that come out and enter into people and become the tormentors of those they enter or are those people just used as tools to torment other unsealed people?

Like how's this all work?

 

[Verily]

@TribulationSigns are you (at all) tying in the judgment that begins with the house of God (when we are judged or chastened in the present) with being chastened with scorpions?

1 Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

2 Ch 10:14 And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

 

[Davidpt]

The difference is Revelation 9 states the earth Revelation 20 doesn’t

What’s the difference how come?

What do you mean Revelation 20 doen't say the earth? Have you ever heard of logically deducing something based on clues?

For example, the following below is how Revelation 20 begins. But before we get to that, how can the bottomless pit meant in Revelation 9 not be the same bottomless pit mentioned in Revelation 20? How can the bottomless pit in ch 9 involve something coming out of the earth, locusts in this case, but in Revelation 20 it is not involving anything going into the earth then being trapped there?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

What can be logically deduced here, is this. The fact the angel is coming down from heaven then laying hold of satan is because that is where satan is, meaning where the angel is coming down to. satan wouldn't be on the moon nor mars but he would be upon the earth, though. Which then means Revelation 20:1 is meaning a time after the war in heaven and and after satan is then cast to the earth.

Revelation 20:1 can't be meaning before the war in heaven nor before he is cast to the earth. And the reason why, until the war in heaven and being cast to the earth he still had access to heaven in some sense in the meantime. Therefore, the angel would not need to come down from heaven to lay hold on satan if satan still had access to heaven.

The fact satan would be on the surface of the earth, to be cast into something then means he is cast into something below him. What is below the surface of the earth? How about the bottomless pit? Why can't there be a prison like that below the surface of the earth that can imprison spirit beings?

A lot of people already think hell is below the earth's surface and that there are souls being confined there until they are bodily resurrected. Why is that logical but it's not logical that there can also be a pit below the earth's surface that can imprison spirit beings, such as satan, such as the locusts in Revelation 9?