Revelation - chapters 19 and 20

[ewq1938]

We can dispute what you said because the none of the verses that you provided have the word earth in them.

What John see is what's happening up in heaven

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The main word of your point (earth) is missing. If literal how can that word be missing?

lol, the army Christ kills is on the Earth so it is obvious that the context is Christ leaving heaven and coming to the air/sky of the earth where he kills people on the ground.

Likewise in Rev 20, and angel leaves heaven and comes to the Earth to imprison satan. In both the destination is the Earth. Why does Amill even deny these very obvious things?

 

[TribulationSigns]

lol, the army Christ kills is on the Earth so it is obvious that the context is Christ leaving heaven and coming to the air/sky of the earth where he kills people on the ground.

Likewise in Rev 20, and angel leaves heaven and comes to the Earth to imprison satan. In both the destination is the Earth. Why does Amill even deny these very obvious things?

Incorrect as usual.

Christ and his army of Saints will not come down to the air to "kill" people on Earth. Not only that the "alive and remain" Elect will meet with the Lord in the air, Christ also is going to resurrect all the unsaved dead, along with the "alive and remain" unsaved people on Earth for Judgment Day. Those people are the beast and the false prophet (not two individuals) who will cast out into the Lake of Fire. So no, Christ won't "kill" them on Earth in Revelation 19.

In Revelation 20, Christ came down from heaven to bind Satan at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, which occurred at the Cross. This was done so that Christ could build His Church, not in the future. Once all the Elect are secured through the testimony of Two Witnesses, then their testimony is finished and Satan will come out from the Bottomless Pit for a short time to deceive those people who have not yet been sealed by God. After the judgment of the whore is complete, Christ returns and the spirit of Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire, "where the beast and the false prophet are," as stated in Revelation 19. All three—Satan, the beast, and the false prophet—will be cast into the Lake of Fire simultaneously after the Millennial Kingdom, rather than being separated by 1,000 years, as suggested by your flawed interpretation of a future Millennium.

Selah.

 

[ewq1938]

Christ and his army of Saints will not come down to the air to "kill" people on Earth.

Incorrect as usual. Christ and his army do come down to the air of the Earth, and Christ does kill people on the ground. Read Rev 19.

 

[MatthewG]

It's been 2000 years since then. It has to be then at that time, when John written Revelation.

John wrote "these are things which must soon happen." While biblical writings are debated, I believe this could have been written a year or two prior to it occurring perhaps 68-69AD. In 70Ad, a complete wipe out, and destruction fell upon Israel as a whole burning up in flames of fire, plagues etc..., and in somewhere in 100ad, or 140ad somewhere, all the roads of the once was, was destroyed all together.

I personally believe it has all come to fruition, and John was not lying. Otherwise I must forget "these are things which must soon come to pass."

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[ewq1938]

It's been 2000 years since then. It has to be then at that time, when John written Revelation.

John wrote "these are things which must soon happen." While biblical writings are debated, I believe this could have been written a year or two prior to it occurring perhaps 68-69AD. In 70Ad, a complete wipe out, and destruction fell upon Israel as a whole burning up in flames of fire, plagues etc..., and in somewhere in 100ad, or 140ad somewhere, all the roads of the once was, was destroyed all together.

I personally believe it has all come to fruition, and John was not lying. Otherwise I must forget "these are things which must soon come to pass."

How can 42 months soon pass? Or the thousand years he wrote of? Obviously SOME of the things he wrote would soon come to pass, but not everything.

Some of the things he wrote about had passed long before such as the birth of Christ in Rev 12. We cannot apply "soon come to pass" is specific only to some things and cannot be applied to many other things.

 

[MatthewG]

Then I might as well disregard the whole thing, would be my suggestion if the things which were written then did not happen then, I wouldn't trust it. I faithfully trust all things had come to pass, as John stated.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[ewq1938]

Then I might as well disregard the whole thing, would be my suggestion if the things which were written then did not happen then, I wouldn't trust it. I faithfully trust all things had come to pass, as John stated.

I already proved that John isn't saying everything must shortly come to pass. That cannot apply to things already in the past and things of long duration, The events of the GWTJ could not come soon because a thousand years must happen first.

 

[Marty fox]

lol, the army Christ kills is on the Earth so it is obvious that the context is Christ leaving heaven and coming to the air/sky of the earth where he kills people on the ground.

Likewise in Rev 20, and angel leaves heaven and comes to the Earth to imprison satan. In both the destination is the Earth. Why does Amill even deny these very obvious things?

Because we have a different interpretation of those verses than you do

Does the earth have a bottomless pit?

 

[Marty fox]

Then I might as well disregard the whole thing, would be my suggestion if the things which were written then did not happen then, I wouldn't trust it. I faithfully trust all things had come to pass, as John stated.

Let’s add this verse as well

Revelation 22
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

 

[Truth7t7]

The survivors of the tribulation that go into the kingdom will go into the kingdom and repopulate the earth.

There won't be any survivors when Jesus returns, all the unsaved mortals are "Destroyed"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Does the earth have a bottomless pit?

Ezekiel 26:20KJV
To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

 

[Truth7t7]

So when are you saying Daniel 7:13-14 is initially meaning? A lot of us, Premil and Amil alike, take it to be meaning when Christ ascended to heaven 2000 years ago. Except I can't see Revelation 19 nor 20 fitting that time period. There wasn't anyone cast into the LOF 2000 years ago(Revelation 19:20).

If you perhaps see Daniel 7:13-14 as future still, per what you said then, that would make Revelation 19 and 20 future still, as well. The logic would then be that this 'many days' they are to wait in the pit for their judgment would be meaning the thousand years, which is what you conclude. Except a thousand years can't be less than a thousand years. They have to at least be a thousand years. Therefore, many days equal at least 1000 literal years at the minimum.

If you perhaps think 'many days' can't involve a lengthy time, such as a thousand years, what about the following in Daniel 8, for example?

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Obviously---for it shall be for many days---is meaning over 500 years later or maybe even thousands of years later. Depending on how you look at it. Meaning from the time Daniel received the vision and that the vision is no longer shut up.

The problem with this view of yours, Daniel 7:13-14 does not appear to be future still, it appears it was already fulfilled 2000 years ago. And that Revelation 19 and 20 doesn't fit 2000 years ago though there are Amils that think Revelation 20:1-6 fit 2000 years ago. But only those verses and not ch 19 as well nor verses 7-15 in Revelation 20.

The book of Revelation is in parallel teachings of same events, chapter 16, 19, 20 same final battle in gathering the Nation's, parallel teachings, same event

Parallel Teachings Of (The End) Below

When the 7th angel sounds in verse 15 below it's (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Below when the 7th vial is poured out its (The End)

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Parallel Teachings Of The Final Judgement Below

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their
Works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[CTK]

I already proved that John isn't saying everything must shortly come to pass. That cannot apply to things already in the past and things of long duration, The events of the GWTJ could not come soon because a thousand years must happen first.

Verse 3 introduces a unique blessing: “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.” This blessing mirrors the principles of the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4–9), calling for believers to read, internalize, and live out God’s Word. The repetition of reads, hears, and keeps emphasizes the active role of believers in understanding and obeying God’s message. The phrase “for the time is near” adds urgency, reminding readers of the sudden and decisive nature of God’s unfolding plan.

Theologically, these verses reveal the relational dynamic of the Trinity. The Father initiates the revelation, the Son mediates and fulfills it, and the Spirit empowers its understanding. This dynamic highlights the unity and distinct roles within the Godhead, underscoring that the message is both authoritative and accessible. The Greek phrase en tachē (“shortly”) further clarifies the timing, emphasizing the suddenness and certainty of these events when they begin, rather than an immediate chronological fulfillment.

 

[MatthewG]

I already proved that John isn't saying everything must shortly come to pass. That cannot apply to things already in the past and things of long duration, The events of the GWTJ could not come soon because a thousand years must happen first.

Well, 2000 years have passed since then. Ive talked with a guy at taco bell one time who believed that it was gonna take place because of the politics was the way it was. I'm not a political man, and just because John mentions some things involving the past, doesn't make a case for things not coming soon as promised... The 7 churches were pretty much to get their act together, otherwise they would miss the boat.

People are free to believe how they want, but I do think people believe that this world needs to be destroyed and be renewed, and I get that. I see that the world has been renewed with the new administration in place.

 

[MatthewG]

Let’s add this verse as well

Revelation 22
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

Hello @Marty fox,

That is a great point. How could a time that is at hand, happen 2000 years later. I believe it comes with a complexity within the human soul. There are many people who seek for this world in hopes of it being destroyed and being made a new, but even in the bible it speaks of this world never ending, however. The world the "Jews" had known at the time, the "world view they lived in." Crumbled inwardly at the point of the destruction, and the plagues that had came upon them.

A time that is near or at hand, is like my glasses being near my hand and I grab them.

 

[Marty fox]

Hello @Marty fox,

That is a great point. How could a time that is at hand, happen 2000 years later. I believe it comes with a complexity within the human soul. There are many people who seek for this world in hopes of it being destroyed and being made a new, but even in the bible it speaks of this world never ending, however. The world the "Jews" had known at the time, the "world view they lived in." Crumbled inwardly at the point of the destruction, and the plagues that had came upon them.

A time that is near or at hand, is like my glasses being near my hand and I grab them.

Yes it was the destruction of Jerusalem the temple and the old covenant age that was at hand.

 

[Marty fox]

Ezekiel 26:20KJV
To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

I mentioned bottomless pit not pit and it’s talk about death

 

[Davidpt]

The book of Revelation is in parallel teachings of same events, chapter 16, 19, 20 same final battle in gathering the Nation's, parallel teachings, same event

Parallel Teachings Of (The End) Below

When the 7th angel sounds in verse 15 below it's (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Below when the 7th vial is poured out its (The End)

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Parallel Teachings Of The Final Judgement Below

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their
Works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Though that appears possible to you that those can be parallel accounts let's not forget this one thing. satan does the exact same thing twice but at different times, he deceives the nations twice. And the following proves it.

1) before the thousand years satan is deceiving the nations. And 2) below proves it.

2) during the thousand years satan is no longer deceiving the nations.

3) after the thousand years satan is once again deceiving the nations.

1) and 3) equal two different times satan deceives the nations. Which then could mean there is a battle at the end of 1) just prior to the beginning of 2). And then there is another battle during 3) after that of 2).

IOW, initially, meaning 1), satan is deceiving the nations which then leads to a battle at the end. Meaning what is recorded in Revelation 19, for one. Which then leads to the beginning of the millennium following this battle, meaning 2).

The millennium then begins, meaning 2), and satan is no longer deceiving the nations because he is bound in the pit instead, and that the beast and fp have been cast into the LOF at the end of 1)

Next 2) is eventually over and that 3) begins. And it begins with satan deceiving the nations again, which then leads to another battle.

What must be asked is this since there is obviously a thousand years between that of when satan deceives the nations again. If there is a battle involving 3) which leads to satan getting cast into the LOF, thus he is no longer deceiving the nations, how could there also not be a battle at the end of 1) leading to satan no longer deceiving the nations, which then leads to 2) at the time?

How can 1) and 3) be involving the same battle that leads to satan no longer deceiving the nations if there is a thousand years between 1) and 3)? Or, how can at the end of 1) it doesn't involve a battle, but at the end of 3) it does? Doesn't both 1) and 3) lead to satan no longer deceiving the nations?

We already know per Amil, at least we Premils know, that 2) is not even true since nations are still being deceived and have never stopped being deceived for the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils insist is meaning 2). Except if 2) is really meaning the last 2000 years as Amil insist, it would mean nations are no longer being deceived rather than nations are still being deceived. IOW, Amil contradicts 2) because in the real world it is plain as day that nations are still being deceived the past 2000 years.

Amil then looks basically like this. Before the thousand years satan is deceiving the nations. During the thousand years satan is still deceiving the nations. After the thousand years satan is still deceiving the nations. Yet we are to believe that Amil is the correct view and that it agrees with 1), 2), and 3) above. Ok, if you say so. Reality says otherwise though, since it is plainly obvious nations are still being deceived the past 2000 years. Something that is not even supposed to be possible during that of 2).

 

[Davidpt]

In post # 58 I pointed out that if there is a battle after that of 3) which then leads to satan no longer deceiving the nations, that should mean there is also a battle at the end of 1) leading to satan no longer deceiving the nations. But since that post was already getting rather lengthy as is, I decided to use this post to provide another possible solution since it would be intellectually dishonest of me not to.

Maybe there are 2 different battles that lead to satan no longer deceiving the nations but that it agrees with Amil not Premil.

1) before the thousand years satan is deceiving the nations. And 2) below proves it.

2) during the thousand years satan is no longer deceiving the nations.

3) after the thousand years satan is once again deceiving the nations.

The battle at the end of 1) that leads to the beginning of 2) could be meaning the following battle.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Which then can mean the battle recorded in Revelation 19 and the one recorded in Revelation 20 are meaning the battle at the end of 3), thus Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are involving the same battle, not 2 different battles a thousand years apart.

I'm just trying to be objective is all, and that I'm also trying to be intellectually honest by pointing out that this is a possible scenario, thus a valid scenario. But even so, I have to remind myself that I believe Not Once Saved Always Saved, that this is Biblical. And I just don't see NOSAS agreeing with Amil's interpretation of the first resurrection. IOW, Amil and NOSAS contradicts Revelation 20:6, not agrees with it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There won't be any survivors when Jesus returns, all the unsaved mortals are "Destroyed"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

But the saved mortals shall enter the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth.