Revelation 2:10 ....and you will have tribulation 10 days...

[CTK]

The passage is to the anointed, saying that some will have tribulation all of their life, but with assurance that God has not forsaken them, but will make good on his promise of eternal life.

Thanks, but why mention the 10 days then?

 

[Brakelite]

It's usually a mistake to cherry pick something from one book and force it into the context of a completely different book. It has a name, eisegesis.

The ten days in Rev 2 is simply ten days.

This is what people with carnal minds think. They say, let's say its ten days and then figure out where to put it on their prophecy calendar to fit their doctrine. That is silly!

No, the number ten and it's multiples (100, 1,000, etc.) illustrate the COMPLETENESS or FULLNESS OF WHATEVER IS IN VIEW.

Here is the lesson... if you have wisdom - with the spirit of Christ (remember?).

Luke 15:8

• "Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?"

Here in the parable of the ten silver pieces, a woman loses one of the ten. She searches for it until she finds it. This is numerical symbolism which shows the believer's search for lost souls representing those who are to be Saved. When we have found what was lost, the batch will be a full or complete treasure. The number ten signified the fullness of believers there. We are the silver which is found by the lighted candle. This is just like the parable of the one hundred (multiple of 10) sheep:

Luke 15:3-5

• "And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
• What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
• And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing".

The same principle applies. If we lose one of them, we search till we find it. So the fullness of them must be found. The number one hundred there signified the fullness of believers which are shepherded over. Likewise in the multiple of 10x100, it signifies the fulness of whatever is in view. Isaiah chapter seven speaks about the First coming of the Lord (verse 14) and says,

Isaiah 7:23

• "And it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns. With arrows and with bows shall men come hither; because All he land shall become briers and thorns."

Are we to suppose this is a literal number? Humm? Were there literally one thousand vines and one thousand silverlings (not 1001 or 999)? When we look at the verse carefully we see that God is using numerical symbology to signify that where there was the fullness of vines, there will be briers and thorns. The number one thousand is not to alert us to the exact literal number of vines, or the exact literal number of one thousand silverlings (pieces of silver money), rather it is to illustrate where the fullness of vines once were, and where the fullness of treasure was, it is changed to briers and thorns. Not literally every place where one thousand pieces of silver were of one thousand vines were. The word thousand is merely being used to signify a very long time, but not literally a thousand.

Deuteronomy 7:9

• "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1st Chronicles 16:15

• "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations,"

Psalms 105:8

• "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

This is a thousand used figuratively to illustrate the fullness of time, not literally a thousand generations. His Word is commanded to all generations, not just literally one thousand. But God is using the number thousand here to show spiritual consistency in representing the fullness. Likewise in Revelation chapter 20, where it speaks of the one thousand year millennial reign of Christ. It is the perfect example of this numerical symbology. It signifies the fullness of time of the reign of Christ, the binding of satan, and the rest of the dead live not again, before the second Resurrection. Not the totality of time from the beginning, and not literally one thousand years, but the fullness of time between events spoken of there.

The same goes with ten days in Revelation 2... well...if you have the wisdom of Christ to know what He actually talk about here! It is NOT ten literal days as you think. It is fullness of time when Satan is being loosened to trail God's faithful as he takes over the house of God. This is what the great tribulation is about.

No, carnal minds like make believe and fiction and like to change scripture using eisegesis to make ten days into ten years.

Well, I suppose if you are so adamant I am wrong, then you will have greater evidence than I that there were ten literal days that the Smyna Church suffered a particularly nasty persecution right? And of course you will have it ready to publish that all may see your evidence?

 

[KUWN]

An interesting aspect of the book of Revelation is that every number in the book can and should be treated as a literal number. If 10 doesn't mean 10 in this passage, it would be the only number that is not taken as literal. Hermeneutically speaking, this is the literal, grammatical, historical, contextual method of interpretation.

 

[covenantee]

An interesting aspect of the book of Revelation is that every number in the book can and should be treated as a literal number. If 10 doesn't mean 10 in this passage, it would be the only number that is not taken as literal. Hermeneutically speaking, this is the literal, grammatical, historical, contextual method of interpretation.

Revelation 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Yes, not one more and not one less.

 

[Brakelite]

Revelation 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Yes, not one more and not one less.

Mmm. And 7 spirits of God?

 

[ewq1938]

Well, I suppose if you are so adamant I am wrong,

You are responding to something I said to TribulationSigns but speaking as if I spoke to you. Is that a second account of yours?

then you will have greater evidence than I that there were ten literal days that the Smyna Church suffered a particularly nasty persecution right? And of course you will have it ready to publish that all may see your evidence?

Unlike you, I don't make bold and exact claims about this. Where in the passage does it say they experience "a particularly nasty persecution"?

Here is the issue. You are taking preconceived beliefs and forcing them into the passage.

 

[CTK]

Mmm. And 7 spirits of God?

Isn’t the 7 Spirits of God the Holy Spirit (one)?

 

[Brakelite]

You are responding to something I said to TribulationSigns but speaking as if I spoke to you. Is that a second account of yours?




Unlike you, I don't make bold and exact claims about this. Where in the passage does it say they experience "a particularly nasty persecution"?

Here is the issue. You are taking preconceived beliefs and forcing them into the passage.

It's prophecy. If we cannot understand prophecy from history, and make the appropriate harmonising comparisons, then what do you have to prove prophecy is reliable? You are correct that there is nothing in the text that specifically denotes a particularly nasty persecution, yet that time period, whether it be ten days or ten years, was an inspired insight into a specific time frame that applied to the church of of the first 3 centuries. Historically, that church did suffer terribly for ten years under Diocletian.
Applying that 10 years to history is not ramming or into prophecy. It is infinitely more logical and understandable than randomly stating that certain prophecies are yet to take place because you refuse to apply them historically.

 

[Timtofly]

Isn’t the 7 Spirits of God the Holy Spirit (one)?

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

Revelation 4:5

This is not addressing the Holy Spirit. These would be more descriptive of angels or ministering Spirits. More likely the 7 angels who would sound the 7 Trumpets. I doubt these are literal physical lamps. Lamps would not be considered created beings, which Spirits are. John could have described them as bowels of fire, balls of fire, and even stars of fire.

The symbolism of lamps was used, even though John could have seen 7 archangels, and just went with symbolism instead of calling them the 7 archangels of God.

"And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

"and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

When theses 7 Spirits were about to act as messengers of God, John referred to them as angels. Otherwise they were lamps or lights called Spirits.

There is no reason to assume there are both 7 lamps and 7 angels, but these are one in the same set of created beings. Angels do have several forms, throughout Scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

It's prophecy. If we cannot understand prophecy from history, and make the appropriate harmonising comparisons, then what do you have to prove prophecy is reliable? You are correct that there is nothing in the text that specifically denotes a particularly nasty persecution, yet that time period, whether it be ten days or ten years, was an inspired insight into a specific time frame that applied to the church of of the first 3 centuries.

There's nothing in the text about that either. 10 years or 300 years plus 13...the interpretation is all over the place. Rev does not say a day is a year so leave the text alone and allow it to say what it says. It's ten days of persecution from satan.

 

[ScottA]

Thanks, but why mention the 10 days then?

It is a word in parable. By the image of God cast in mankind--ten toes below, and ten fingers above--ten means "all"...as in all the days of your life.

 

[CTK]

It is a word in parable. By the image of God cast in mankind--ten toes below, and ten fingers above--ten means "all"...as in all the days of your life.

Thanks, but I believe the 10 days is meaningful.... we just have to find its meaning...

 

[ScottA]

Thanks, but I believe the 10 days is meaningful.... we just have to find its meaning...

I gave you the meaning. It means: All.

 

[CTK]

I gave you the meaning. It means: All.

I understand that is what you believe. No problem! After studying Daniel, I have learned there usually is a very specific reason for God to write these kind of things in His Word.

You certainly may be right but I would like to continue thinking how it might be applied in all of the church periods not just being applicable to one church.

 

[KUWN]

I gave you the meaning. It means: All.

If the 10 days are not a literal 10 days, then it would be the only symbolic number in the entire book of Rev. That is, all other numbers mentioned in Rev are literal numbers. But this is something that one must accept before trying to interpret a passage. I basically subscribe to the literal, grammatical, historical, normal reading of a text. I take all passages are to be taken literal unless there is clear evidence that the number is not to be taken literally. I believe that the writers of Scripture use metaphors and symbolism at times, but the context will make that clear.

10 literal days should be taken literally unless the context says otherwise, and it doesn't.

 

[CTK]

Okay, I went back to Daniel and looked at the 10 days testing in Chapter 1. There are not many 10 days scenes to be found in the OT.

Anyway, here goes. At the end of time, God will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people. This means the time of the Gentiles has come to its end. They will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and will go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. They will do this just as Paul had done in the first century.

This 3.5 year period will also count to being an end to the 4th and final Great Jubilee (486.5 years up to the cross and the remaining 3.5 year after their relationship was restored with their God.

But this will bring a 10 day period of intense persecution for all believers in Jesus. From a corporate view, these 10 days will represent the most intense persecution that will take place during the period known as the “10 days of Aw” that comes between the Trumpets and Yom Kipper.

Thoughts?

 

[ScottA]

I understand that is what you believe. No problem! After studying Daniel, I have learned there usually is a very specific reason for God to write these kind of things in His Word.

You certainly may be right but I would like to continue thinking how it might be applied in all of the church periods not just being applicable to one church.

I don't dabble in what I "believe", only what I know from God.

As for "in all of the church periods", as I said, all/10 means all.

 

[ScottA]

If the 10 days are not a literal 10 days, then it would be the only symbolic number in the entire book of Rev. That is, all other numbers mentioned in Rev are literal numbers. But this is something that one must accept before trying to interpret a passage. I basically subscribe to the literal, grammatical, historical, normal reading of a text. I take all passages are to be taken literal unless there is clear evidence that the number is not to be taken literally. I believe that the writers of Scripture use metaphors and symbolism at times, but the context will make that clear.

10 literal days should be taken literally unless the context says otherwise, and it doesn't.

The "clear evidence" is: "The words that I speak to you are spirit" (John 6:63). Meaning that what is made manifest, like man, is image--meaning all the world, and every word from God. This is a fundamental truth regarding what is seen compared with what is unseen.

To the contrary, what is "literal" in this world, is not "literal" in spirit and in the kingdom of God. It is God and the kingdom that are actually "literal", while all the world is not literal, but a creation out of nothing, by the light and power of God. All matter in the universe is light and energy, even scientifically.

As for "ten" being "the only symbolic number in the entire book of Revelation", that is not true: Even from the beginning, the seven lampstands are symbolic of the seven churches--which themselves are not only seven, but symbolic of all churches.

The words are spirit.

 

[KUWN]

As for "ten" being "the only symbolic number in the entire book of Revelation", that is not true: Even from the beginning, the seven lampstands are symbolic of the seven churches--which themselves are not only seven, but symbolic of all churches.

You need to pay attention to what is written in my post. The number seven is a literal number that John uses to write to seven actual churches. The number 7 is not a symbolic number. It is a real number. Each message to these 7 churches is a message to all believers throughout the entire Church Age. Just as all the churches and believers in the NT is written to all believers.

10 is not a symbolic number, it is an actual number. 144,000 Jewish witnesses is a real number. All numbers in Rev are to be taken literally.

Like the second epistle to Corinth, it was literally written to that Church (all the believers in the various house-churches) in Corinth but applies to all believers. Corinth is not a symbolic place, but real house-churches in Corinth. But it is applicable to all believers.

 

[covenantee]

You need to pay attention to what is written in my post. The number seven is a literal number that John uses to write to seven actual churches. The number 7 is not a symbolic number. It is a real number. Each message to these 7 churches is a message to all believers throughout the entire Church Age. Just as all the churches and believers in the NT is written to all believers.

10 is not a symbolic number, it is an actual number. 144,000 Jewish witnesses is a real number. All numbers in Rev are to be taken literally.

Like the second epistle to Corinth, it was literally written to that Church (all the believers in the various house-churches) in Corinth but applies to all believers. Corinth is not a symbolic place, but real house-churches in Corinth. But it is applicable to all believers.

Revelation 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

What literal number is "thousands of thousands"?