Renewable Salvation

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Eternally Grateful

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its sad the amount of people who rely on SELF for salvation. and then think they are secure in SELF.

Me? I fail all the time. I learned along time ago that I need to rely on God, and not myself. because everytime I rely on self, i fail

its amazing how many deceived people there are who think they are it!
 

Eternally Grateful

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Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God. It's a disgraceful lie that robs Jesus Christ of His glory and honor. Jesus Christ alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by His ALL-sufficient sacrifice. The fatal deception of purgatory blinds Roman Catholics from the glorious gospel of the grace of Christ. It is just another lie from Satan which keeps his captives from trusting in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ alone. Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement for sin on the cross. I can't begin to imagine all the money that has been paid out to Roman Catholic priests over the years to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in purgatory. :(
Have you looked up where this thinking came from? and why it was started?
 

mailmandan

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its sad the amount of people who rely on SELF for salvation. and then think they are secure in SELF.

Me? I fail all the time. I learned along time ago that I need to rely on God, and not myself. because everytime I rely on self, i fail

its amazing how many deceived people there are who think they are it!
SELF promotion, SELF righteousness and SELF preservation all stems from PRIDE. For these folks it's all about SELF. Me, Me, Me, I, I, I.
 

mailmandan

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Have you looked up where this thinking came from? and why it was started?
Yes. After it was decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the Roman empire, pagans flooded into the church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins. The origin of the Catholic church was basically Christianity mixed or blended with pagan customs.

Here is a video which explains some of this.

 

Michiah-Imla

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SELF promotion, SELF righteousness and SELF preservation all stems from PRIDE. For these folks it's all about SELF. Me, Me, Me, I, I, I.

“And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish, and without charge in His sight, if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” (Colossians 1:21-23)

That’s ME ME ME, I I I, that needs to continue grounded and settled in the faith.

YOU as well!
 

Charlie24

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Believing in Jesus alone as the one true Christ of God, and doing His word only, is not the heresy of OSAS being saved by faith alone while doing unrighteousness.



Paul preaches against works without faith, and James preaches against faith without works.

Paul rebukes self-righteous Pharisees, and James rebukes self-justifying OSAS Christians.


Lot's of Scripture have no cross in them.



No man is saved without taking up his own cross for Christ's sake. Piggy backing Jesus's cross is not only impossible, but lazy and hypocritical.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge...

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.





Still you're same old lie. Repeating a lie doesn't make it true with me.


Up on our cross. You can't climb up on Jesus's cross, because you aren't there at the time. And if you were there, you wouldn't have climbed up on His cross, just like all the rest that forsook Him.

You imaginary climbing on his cross is a wild boast, that you would not have done, given the chance a couple thousand years ago.


I'm not trying to. I'm not even trying to convince you. You mistake my purpose here. The only reason I respond to you is an exercise in rebuking false teaching. I have nothing personal against you. I wouldn't be surprised you live a spiritually pure and clean life, but you will be judged for your doctrine of saved by faith alone that increases ungodliness for those who actually practise it.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Jesus doesn't say Jezebel is committing fornication, but only teaching others how to do so, without being condemned with fornicators.



My mastery mostly comes from correcting errors like yours. Until I saw them here, I would have never guessed there are Christians that actually believe and teach it. I mean, I heard of OSAS, but I never saw the dirty little details of it before with need to correct them. So thank you.

Well, Robert, I'll leave you alone! You're being hammered enough.

It's because we want you to give Him the responsibility to fulfill the righteousness in you through faith in his performance, rather than you bearing that responsibility and failing by your own performance.

I wish you could understand this, Robert. It's all about His wonderful Grace and what He has done for us, placing faith in Him.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Yes. After it was decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the Roman empire, pagans flooded into the church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins. The origin of the Catholic church was basically Christianity mixed or blended with pagan customs.

Here is a video which explains some of this.

if only they knew of their origins
 
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Michiah-Imla

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@mailmandan @Eternally Grateful @APAK

You all think it’s absurd to stop sinning.

So…

Do you all suppose God was just being cruel by giving his people these conditions that he knew they couldn’t keep according to the doctrine of “no one can be sinless”?

“If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians…” (Exodus 15:26)

:IDK:
 

Illuminator

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if only they knew of their origins
We know the origins of the pagan influence fallacy, but facts, reason and logic falls on deaf ears.

Anti-Catholics often suggest that Catholicism did not exist prior to the Edict of Milan, which was issued in A.D. 313 and made Christianity legal in the Roman Empire. With this, pagan influences began to contaminate the previously untainted Christian Church. In no time, various inventions adopted from paganism began to replace the gospel that had been once for all delivered to the saints. At least, that is the theory.

Pagan Influence Fallacy​

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this “pagan influence fallacy.” Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism toward the Church. During this time, entire new sects were created (Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses)—all considering traditional Catholicism and Protestantism as polluted by paganism. This era also saw atheistic “freethinkers” such as Robert Ingersoll writing books attacking Christianity and Judaism as pagan.

The pagan influence fallacy has not gone away in the twentieth century, but newer archaeology and more mature scholarship have diminished its influence. Yet there are still many committing it. In Protestant circles, numerous works have continued to popularize the claims of Alexander Hislop, most notably the comic books of Jack Chick and the book Babylon Mystery Religion by the young Ralph Woodrow (later Woodrow realized its flaws and wrote The Babylon Connection? repudiating it and refuting Hislop). Other Christian and quasi-Christian sects have continued to charge mainstream Christianity with paganism, and many atheists have continued to repeat—unquestioned—the charges of paganism leveled by their forebears...

...Anything can be attacked using fallacy​

The pagan influence fallacy is committed when one charges that a particular religion, belief, or practice is of pagan origin or has been influenced by paganism and is therefore false, tainted, or to be repudiated. In this minimal form, the pagan influence fallacy is a subcase of the genetic fallacy, which improperly judges a thing based on its history or origins rather than on its own merits (e.g., “No one should use this medicine because it was invented by a drunkard and adulterer”).

Very frequently, the pagan influence fallacy is committed in connection with other fallacies, most notably the post hoc ergo proper hoc (“After this, therefore because of this”) fallacy—e.g., “Some ancient pagans did or believed something millennia ago, therefore any parallel Christian practices and beliefs must be derived from that source.” Frequently, a variant on this fallacy is committed in which, as soon as a parallel with something pagan is noted, it is assumed that the pagan counterpart is the more ancient. This variant might be called the similis hoc ergo propter hoc (“Similar to this, therefore because of this”) fallacy.

When the pagan influence fallacy is encountered, to make it clear to a religious person committing it, it may be helpful to illustrate with cases where the pagan influence fallacy could be committed against his own position (e.g., the practice of circumcision was practiced in the ancient world by a number of peoples—including the Egyptians—but few Jews or Christians would say that its divinely authorized use in Israel was an example of “pagan corruption”).

To help a secular person see the fallacy involved, one might point to a parallel case of the genetic fallacy involving those of his perspective (e.g., “Nobody should accept this particular scientific theory because it was developed by an atheist”).

Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented from primary sources or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources.(this is never done)
After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.​

The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. For example: “The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known” (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong.

Is the parallel dependent or independent?​

Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views. For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this.

The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.
Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?

Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other. It may be that the pagan parallel is a late borrowing from a non-pagan source. Frequently, the pagan sources we have are so late that they have been shaped in reaction to Jewish and Christian ideas.

Sometimes it is possible to tell that pagans have been borrowing from non-pagans. Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone). For example: The ideas expressed in the Norse Elder Edda about the end and regeneration of the world were probably influenced by the teachings of Christians with whom the Norse had been in contact for centuries (H. A. Guerber, The Norsemen, 339f).
continued...
 

Eternally Grateful

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We know the origins of the pagan influence fallacy, but facts, reason and logic falls on deaf ears.

Anti-Catholics often suggest that Catholicism did not exist prior to the Edict of Milan, which was issued in A.D. 313 and made Christianity legal in the Roman Empire. With this, pagan influences began to contaminate the previously untainted Christian Church. In no time, various inventions adopted from paganism began to replace the gospel that had been once for all delivered to the saints. At least, that is the theory.

Pagan Influence Fallacy​

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this “pagan influence fallacy.” Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism toward the Church. During this time, entire new sects were created (Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses)—all considering traditional Catholicism and Protestantism as polluted by paganism. This era also saw atheistic “freethinkers” such as Robert Ingersoll writing books attacking Christianity and Judaism as pagan.

The pagan influence fallacy has not gone away in the twentieth century, but newer archaeology and more mature scholarship have diminished its influence. Yet there are still many committing it. In Protestant circles, numerous works have continued to popularize the claims of Alexander Hislop, most notably the comic books of Jack Chick and the book Babylon Mystery Religion by the young Ralph Woodrow (later Woodrow realized its flaws and wrote The Babylon Connection? repudiating it and refuting Hislop). Other Christian and quasi-Christian sects have continued to charge mainstream Christianity with paganism, and many atheists have continued to repeat—unquestioned—the charges of paganism leveled by their forebears...

...Anything can be attacked using fallacy​

The pagan influence fallacy is committed when one charges that a particular religion, belief, or practice is of pagan origin or has been influenced by paganism and is therefore false, tainted, or to be repudiated. In this minimal form, the pagan influence fallacy is a subcase of the genetic fallacy, which improperly judges a thing based on its history or origins rather than on its own merits (e.g., “No one should use this medicine because it was invented by a drunkard and adulterer”).

Very frequently, the pagan influence fallacy is committed in connection with other fallacies, most notably the post hoc ergo proper hoc (“After this, therefore because of this”) fallacy—e.g., “Some ancient pagans did or believed something millennia ago, therefore any parallel Christian practices and beliefs must be derived from that source.” Frequently, a variant on this fallacy is committed in which, as soon as a parallel with something pagan is noted, it is assumed that the pagan counterpart is the more ancient. This variant might be called the similis hoc ergo propter hoc (“Similar to this, therefore because of this”) fallacy.

When the pagan influence fallacy is encountered, to make it clear to a religious person committing it, it may be helpful to illustrate with cases where the pagan influence fallacy could be committed against his own position (e.g., the practice of circumcision was practiced in the ancient world by a number of peoples—including the Egyptians—but few Jews or Christians would say that its divinely authorized use in Israel was an example of “pagan corruption”).

To help a secular person see the fallacy involved, one might point to a parallel case of the genetic fallacy involving those of his perspective (e.g., “Nobody should accept this particular scientific theory because it was developed by an atheist”).

Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented from primary sources or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources.(this is never done)
After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.​

The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. For example: “The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known” (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong.

Is the parallel dependent or independent?​

Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views. For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this.

The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.
Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?

Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other. It may be that the pagan parallel is a late borrowing from a non-pagan source. Frequently, the pagan sources we have are so late that they have been shaped in reaction to Jewish and Christian ideas.

Sometimes it is possible to tell that pagans have been borrowing from non-pagans. Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone). For example: The ideas expressed in the Norse Elder Edda about the end and regeneration of the world were probably influenced by the teachings of Christians with whom the Norse had been in contact for centuries (H. A. Guerber, The Norsemen, 339f).
continued...
Yawn

If you really studied. not only true history. not the one created by your church, but the word of God.

you would become one of those ex catholics.

I have nothing against the catholic church.. nor do I need to attack her. I could care less really. People will give an answer to God.. not the pope..
 

Illuminator

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We know the origins of the pagan influence fallacy, but facts, reason and logic falls on deaf ears.

Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively?​

Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

For example: Circumcision and the symbol of the cross might be termed “neutral” Jewish and Christian counterparts to pagan parallels. It is quite likely that the early Hebrews first encountered the idea of circumcision among neighboring non-Jewish peoples, but that does not mean they regarded it as a religiously good thing for non-Jews to do. Circumcision was regarded as a religiously good thing only for Jews because for them it symbolized a special covenant with the one true God (Gen. 17). The Hebrew scriptures are silent in a religious appraisal of non-Jewish circumcision.

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.

Examples of negative parallels are often found in Genesis. For instance, the Flood narrative (Gen. 6-9) has parallels to pagan flood stories, but is written so that it refutes ideas in them. Thus Genesis attributes the flood to human sin (6:5-7), not overpopulation, as Atrahasis’ Epic and the Greek poem Cypria did. The presence of flood stories in cultures around the world does not undermine the validity of the biblical narrative, but lends it more credence.

Criticism, refutation, and replacement are also the principles behind modern holidays being celebrated to a limited extent around the same time as former pagan holidays. In actuality, reports of Christian holidays coinciding with pagan ones are often inaccurate (Christmas does not occur on Saturnalia, for example). However, to the extent the phenomenon occurs at all, Christian holidays were introduced to provide a wholesome, non-pagan alternative celebration, which thus critiques and rejects the pagan holiday.

This is the same process that leads Fundamentalists who are offended at the (inaccurately alleged) pagan derivation of Halloween to introduce alternative “Reformation Day” celebrations for their children. (This modern Protestant holiday is based on the fact that the Reformation began when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31, 1517.) Another Fundamentalist substitution for Halloween has been “harvest festivals” that celebrate the season of autumn and the gathering of crops. These Fundamentalist substitutions are no more “pagan” than the celebrations of days or seasons that may have been introduced by earlier Christians.

Historical truth prevails
Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism “pagan” fail. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices.

source
 
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APAK

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@mailmandan @Eternally Grateful @APAK

You all think it’s absurd to stop sinning.

So…

Do you all suppose God was just being cruel by giving his people these conditions that he knew they couldn’t keep according to the doctrine of “no one can be sinless”?

“If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians…” (Exodus 15:26)

:IDK:
Well I really do not understand your post at all.

What then what seems to be bugging you lately? In need of more attention?
 

BreadOfLife

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That actually sounds pretty smart and better than what I was explaining. I have noticed the Catholics have thought a lot thru regarding the scriptures. I'm not convinced they have it all correct though.
Fair enough . . .
 

robert derrick

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Well, Robert, I'll leave you alone! You're being hammered enough.
Not a bit. I don't argue with people, but only doctrine. It's nothing personal to me.

It's because we want you to give Him the responsibility to fulfill the righteousness in you through faith in his performance, rather than you bearing that responsibility and failing by your own performance.
I'm still not interested in trusting in your faith alone, to remain uncondemned while doing unrighteousness.

I wish you could understand this, Robert. It's all about His wonderful Grace and what He has done for us, placing faith in Him.
I understand it perfectly. I just still reject it as false doctrine and gospel. Thanks anyway.
 

Illuminator

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Yawn

If you really studied. not only true history. not the one created by your church, but the word of God.
Catholics don't create history, even when the facts makes us look bad. Popes have publicly apologized for the sins committed by some crazy Catholics centuries ago, which has no relevance in todays world. Popes accept accountability for centuries old sins they had nothing to with with. It's called responsible leadership, something totally unheard of from the Protestant world.
The word of God contains history, but it is not a history book. You are faced with the IMPOSSIBLE task of re-writing early church history based on the Bible alone. We don't have that problem.
you would become one of those ex catholics.

I have nothing against the catholic church.. nor do I need to attack her. I could care less really. People will give an answer to God.. not the pope..
But this is an attack in itself, assuming the Pope replaces or supplants God. It's a stupid insult that you commit automatically, without thinking.
I presented 4 test questions that demolishes the pagan influence fallacy, based on facts, logic and reason. Not "Catholic history" (another insult).

1) Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.

2) Is the parallel dependent or independent?

3) Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?

4) Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively?

Your response to these challenging questions is

This is called cognitive dissonance.
1678298159252.png

The 4 questions makes mincemeat out of mailmandan's sick video that neither of you will deal with.
 
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