Rejecting God on the basis of evil and suffering

[Jericho]

I've been thinking about the argument some atheists have about not believing in God because of the existance of evil and suffering in the world. That argument has been addressed before, and there are many possible resolutions. But really, it's not a good argument for rejecting the existence of God because that argument alone does not preclude a creator. The central question is where did we come from? There are only two possibilities: we were created or we evolved. That's it. And the more I have studied evolution, the more of an untenable position it becomes.

 

[marks]

I've been thinking about the argument some atheists have about not believing in God because of the existance of evil and suffering in the world. That argument has been addressed before, and there are many possible resolutions. But really, it's not a good argument for rejecting the existence of God because that argument alone does not preclude a creator. The central question is where did we come from? There are only two possibilities: we were created or we evolved. That's it. And the more I have studied evolution, the more of an untenable position it becomes.

In fact Romans declares that everyone knows there is a Creator, but some put that information out of their minds.

I agree with you about evolution. Considering the plethora of examples of irreducible complexity, I don't see it possible. I think Charles Darwin, base on his assertion that his theories were based on the "simple cell" being just that, would refute his own theory.

Much love!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I've been thinking about the argument some atheists have about not believing in God because of the existance of evil and suffering in the world. That argument has been addressed before, and there are many possible resolutions. But really, it's not a good argument for rejecting the existence of God because that argument alone does not preclude a creator. The central question is where did we come from? There are only two possibilities: we were created or we evolved. That's it. And the more I have studied evolution, the more of an untenable position it becomes.

Evil and suffering ?
Suffering can be good for you ? for if you never suffered such, what would you know about such ?
Suffering could wake one up to evil.
Evil is the account of ?

God is the power in regards the Holy Spirit.
What people do in regard God ? turn your back on such or not truly understand that we must abide in Christ Jesus, so as to keep the wolf from our doors, is strength and endurance in God ! out side of that is sloth and ignorance and such will grow cold .

What is needed in us is the Fire, to be on Fire for Christ Jesus totaly and we will endure well at what may come our way, it's delt with ! things become easy in Christ Jesus, outside of that comes cowards that abide in deceptions and delusions, for they fail, due to lack of true strength, for they are Lost !

 

[Wrangler]

But really, it's not a good argument for rejecting the existence of God

Correct. It's a better argument for not worshipping YHWH as God on moral grounds. Therefore, the rebuttal must be made on moral, not metaphysical, grounds.

Some falsely say a God who allows suffering is immoral. I say a man who denies the existence of God is immoral. Morally condemning God will not help Atheists on Judgement Day! They are not the judge but will be judged. FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom and these Atheists have no fear and therefore, no wisdom.

Why does the Creator allow suffering? The question implies he has a moral obligation to stop suffering, which he does not. In Bible Study, I announced that if I were God I would not end suffering or grant many prayer requests. Why? Because we tend to turn away from God when we have many blessings. God wants us to stay close to him.

 

[ScottA]

I've been thinking about the argument some atheists have about not believing in God because of the existance of evil and suffering in the world. That argument has been addressed before, and there are many possible resolutions. But really, it's not a good argument for rejecting the existence of God because that argument alone does not preclude a creator. The central question is where did we come from? There are only two possibilities: we were created or we evolved. That's it. And the more I have studied evolution, the more of an untenable position it becomes.

Yes, and those two possibilities God has specifically identified, saying through Moses, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19). Jesus then did likewise identifying a similar fork in the road, in Matthew 16:17.

 

[Taken]

Rejecting God on the basis of evil and suffering

Fact is God is the Creator AND Maker.
Fact is God Created.
Facts is God MADE Divisions.

Night…………Day
Up…………….Down
In………………Out
Above……….Below
With………….Without
Good………..Evil
Etc.

Each concept is of Polar Opposites.

Fact is Good is a concept of Behavior.
Fact is Evil is a concept of Behavior.
Fact is God Created each concept.
Fact is ManKIND has Freewill to exercise either.

When God Created AND then Made ManKIND….God Called His Creation and Making….VERY GOOD.

ManKIND “exercising his OWN (unobstructed) WILL” has “routinely” chosen to “Choose the Behavior of EVIL rather than GOOD.”

WHY?

EFFORT necessary to achieve Desired Result.

Desired Result Goal? Gain

Goal Gain?
Wealth
Position of Power
Control
Notable

Hopeful Gain?
Honor
Trustworthy Legacy

Both Good and Evil men Have for centuries…
Gained Wealth
Gained Power Positions
Gained Control
Gained Notoriety
….ONE via underhandedness, deceit.
….ONE via upstandingness, honesty.

Each HAVE NOT Gained…
Honor
Trustworthy Legacy

The EFFORT to BE underhanded, deceitful IS minimal, easy.

The EFFORT to BE upstanding, honest IS greater, harder.

Underhanded, deceitful hides flaws.
Upstanding, honest reveals flaws.

FACT IS…Every Human has FLAWS…
FACT IS…ManKINDS Creator and Maker HAS OFFERED ManKIND, A way, A truth, A life…
TO Become “MADE” Perfected, Perfect, by the way, truth, life OF the Lord God Almighty.

FACT IS…Gods “Perfection” is Not Suited for a natural human ManKIND of being.

FACT IS…God created and made natural human ManKIND of being…Very Good…
NOT Perfect!

FACT IS…an atheist, IS flawed, IS content with his Flaws, AND God IS gracious to allow an atheist to exercise his OWN (unobstructed) WILL, to never become MADE Perfected.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jericho]

Why does the Creator allow suffering? The question implies he has a moral obligation to stop suffering, which he does not. In Bible Study, I announced that if I were God I would not end suffering or grant many prayer requests. Why? Because we tend to turn away from God when we have many blessings. God wants us to stay close to him.

And yet, there will come a day when suffering will end, at least for the saved. The question then is, why is God allowing suffering for this finite period of time? When people ask this question, they are admitting they don't know the answer, yet they draw incomplete conclusions based on that ignorance. We can deduce that this momentary suffering must serve some purpose, even if we don't fully comprehend it.

 

[Wrangler]

The question then is, why is God allowing suffering for this finite period of time? When people ask this question, they are admitting they don't know the answer, yet they draw incomplete conclusions based on that ignorance.

I answered this question. Suffering brings us closer to God as cold brings us closer to fire.

 

[Bob Estey]

I've been thinking about the argument some atheists have about not believing in God because of the existance of evil and suffering in the world. That argument has been addressed before, and there are many possible resolutions. But really, it's not a good argument for rejecting the existence of God because that argument alone does not preclude a creator. The central question is where did we come from? There are only two possibilities: we were created or we evolved. That's it. And the more I have studied evolution, the more of an untenable position it becomes.

The atheist might say, "Why do good people suffer?" Jesus pointed out that none of us, even himself, is good - only our Father in heaven is good.

I think we probably all suffer less than we deserve.

 

[Instant]

I completely agree Jericho. I have been debating atheists at YouTube for about 8 or 9 months now, and that is one of the arguments I have been making. How does the actions or lack thereof from God prove he is real or not real? How would his being loving or not all-loving make him real or unreal? It is a completely illogical argument. In addition, it comes not from the Bible, but from false teachers misleading people. I tell them I am not here to be a public relations director for God to make you like him. I am here to tell the truth from His Word. Read the Word for yourself and make up your own mind if you like God or don't, but it is silly to say that you just can't believe in a God because he allows this or that or does this or that.

 

[ShineTheLight]

I answered this question. Suffering brings us closer to God as cold brings us closer to fire.

I don't agree with this popular saying or view. Not everyone is going to have the same experience. Someone might do the things they need to do to get closer to God, yet they're still not any closer than they were prior to that. To Jericho's point, people are led to ask questions about something that they do not understand. God does not cast off forever, he delights more in mercy.

People will say how the things they have to go through and endure makes them better in hindsight. But when they were going through it it didn't feel like that. If anything, the thing about being close to God has stages. Obedience and humility brings a person closer to God. Before those things, they have to examine themselves. Again, not everyone is going to have the same experience. You can suffer for good or for evil. If it's the latter, none of "getting close to God" matters if you aren't washing yourself from the things that make you unclean to God. It isn't easy to know, whether for good or evil, which one you're suffering for. And you can't judge or determine things on the surface.

 

[Taken]

And yet, there will come a day when suffering will end, at least for the saved.

Literally, “suffering will cease…FOR ALL of manKIND…”

Gods LOVE and MERCY is infinite for ALL of manKIND…

Those with a Saved soul, a Quickened spirit…
SHALL maintain (body, soul, spirit LIFE) Forever WITH God VOID of wickedness and evil, death, disease, hardship, etc.

Those WITHOUT a Saved soul, WITHOUT a Quickened spirit…
SHALL BE VOID of (body, soul, spirit LIFE) Forever.

A body, soul, spirit WITHOUT LIFE, feels, knows Nothing. THEY SHALL, experience at Least 1,000 years of soul life, absent from God, from Gods comforts and pleasantness…FULL WELL KNOWING…they Freely Chose to Reject the Lord God and have 1,000 years to DWELL on their Choice to be absent from the Lord God.

The question then is, why is God allowing suffering for this finite period of time? When people ask this question, they are admitting they don't know the answer, yet they draw incomplete conclusions based on that ignorance. We can deduce that this momentary suffering must serve some purpose, even if we don't fully comprehend it.

Sure, I agree, and have heard comments and wonderings of WHY.

Regardless of Wealth, Fame, Power position, …Natural Human Life is full of bumps, ruts, hurdles…
…God OFFERS His strength and comfort during those times…

…Fact IS: men routinely REJECT Gods strength and comfort…under the guise…THEY are better suited to establish Gods WILL, ORDER, WAY…God should FIX everything according to “their will, order, way, time table”…. and “since God doesn’t”…
Well then…they justify themselves to wave the banner of unbelief”.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Papa Smurf]

Jesus pointed out that none of us, ~even himself~, is good - only our Father in heaven is good.

Hello Bob, fortunately, for all who are hoping to be saved, the Lord Jesus ~never~ tells us that it is His Father alone who is good, nor does He ever tell us that He Himself is not ("good", that is). After all, it's on the basis of the Lord Jesus' precious blood (who is the "unblemished/spotless" Lamb of God) that our sins are atoned for and forgiven (and that we are redeemed).

So, rather than telling us that it is the "Father in heaven alone who is good", He tells us that it is "God alone who is good" (which means that He is "good", since He is God, just like the Father and the Holy Spirit are).

See the verses below that show this, in a number of different translations and paraphrases, to boot :)

~Luke 18:19 - The Rich Young Ruler​

~Mark 10:18 - The Rich Young Man​

~Matthew 19:17 - The Rich Young Man​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

1 Peter 1​

18 You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from the futile way of life that you inherited from your forefathers, ​

19 but with precious blood, as of a Lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. ​

.​

 

[MA2444]

In fact Romans declares that everyone knows there is a Creator, but some put that information out of their minds.

Bullseye. They do know and the proof is in the existance of a conscience! So ultimately, they are liars, usually because they have a favorite sin that they want to hold onto more than God's ways. So they lie. All gays lie. Born like that? No. Born into sin and corruption and never learned the truth but they hear about God here and there, they cant get away from it. Their conscience attacks them and they know they are wrong. They learn to quiten their conscience by finding justifications for their behavior and doubts through twisting the word of God and uh-oh there's a contradiction so it cant be trusted. So they wind up never approaching God through his word or prayer in any serious way...never realizing that taking two steps towards God through their own free will, will get God to take 2 steps towards them and He will reveal Himself in some small way and begin working with you. It all comes alive! He is a very real God. But they way He set it up is for you to walk away from the world and come back to Him of your own free will.

Did the book of Job teach us nothing?! They might say, well I never seen a miracle. And what is that? These guys are typically 25-50 yr olds and have never spent more than 1 hour sometime reading their Bible in their entire life. They might pray in exteme circumstances. But never any other time. Prayer is so important because of your own free will you are allowing God to come there, be there. Inside you, speaking working on you. Affecting your life. God wont violate our free will, He can't help those who wont pray. It is written, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Why? Because it gives God permission to act on your behalf and whatever else you may pray for!

But they wont do it. That girl just called again or maybe go to the gay bar tonight?
How is God supposed to help them? They loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.

Romans 1:19-21
19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.../NLT

 

[MA2444]

Why does the Creator allow suffering? The question implies he has a moral obligation to stop suffering, which he does not. In Bible Study, I announced that if I were God I would not end suffering or grant many prayer requests. Why? Because we tend to turn away from God when we have many blessings. God wants us to stay close to him.

I asked the Lord that question before and he gave me a good answer. He said that some things can't be taught without suffering. That's a pretty deep answer and if that's true then I must be pretty smart by now, lol! I've had my share of suffering I think, hope. But I'm not complaining, I have way lots more to be thankful for! God treats me so good!

It kid of makes me wonder if I asked the wrong question in heaven before? ( it says He knew us before we were in the womb), so if I asked the wrong question (or right one?) and so I wake up in school, in the University of Brotherly Love! Where it's every man for himself and you have to wade through death and destruction and deception all our lives...and learn how to Love these people at the same time! (Final Exams are coming soon in our lifetime!)

Whoa, what a hard course to take! Maybe next time I wont ask so many questions, lol. This was not fun! The valley of the shadow of Death, the earth.

 

[Bob Estey]

Hello Bob, fortunately, for all who are hoping to be saved, the Lord Jesus ~never~ tells us that it is His Father alone who is good, nor does He ever tell us that He Himself is not ("good", that is). After all, it's on the basis of the Lord Jesus' precious blood (who is the "unblemished/spotless" Lamb of God) that our sins are atoned for and forgiven and that we are redeemed.

So, rather than telling us that it is the "Father in heaven alone who is good", He tells us that it is "God alone who is good" (which means that He is "good", since He is God, just like the Father and the Holy Spirit are).

See the verses below that show this, in quite a number of different translations and paraphrases.

~Luke 18:19 - The Rich Young Ruler​

~Mark 10:18 - The Rich Young Man​

~Matthew 19:17 - The Rich Young Man​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

1 Peter 1​

18 You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from the futile way of life that you inherited from your forefathers, ​

19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. ​

.​

[18] And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
[19] And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. Luke 18:18-19

 

[Wrangler]

Whoa, what a hard course to take! Maybe next time I wont ask so many questions, lol. This was not fun! The valley of the shadow of Death, the earth.

A recent show stated that sometimes death does not come as a fearsome thief but a welcomed friend. (Shakespeare)

Experience may be the best teacher but it is also the most expensive.

Regarding the quality of questions; one leads to another. It’s how we learn. Getting on in years, I realize the answers given to children are to accommodate their level of understanding, not to deceive. So it is with us when we are given answers by our Creator.

 

[MA2444]

Experience may be the best teacher but it is also the most expensive.

That's true. Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgment!

 

[Papa Smurf]

[18] And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
[19] And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. Luke 18:18-19

Hello again Bob, in your first post you said the following things.

The atheist might say, "Why do good people suffer?"

Atheists are hardly alone in asking that question, but it is, indeed, one that they love to ask us (of course, sadly, they typically use it to make a point, not to further enlighten or educate themselves ).

Jesus pointed out that none of us, ~even himself~, is good - only our Father in heaven is good. (for clarity's sake, again, Jesus never declares that it is "His Father alone who is good", in the Synopics or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, rather He says .. Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19)

As far as your insinuation goes ... that in v19 the Lord Jesus repudiates His own teachings (about Who and what He is) by declaring Himself to be nothing more than a mere man, which would mean, if true, that He was neither "good" nor "God", but "evil", and a sinner, just like all of the rest of us are .. e.g. Luke 11:11-13 ... nothing could be further from the truth, a point that the rest of the Scriptures, and especially synoptic verses like Matthew 19:17, help make clear for us.

So, consider again not only the question that is asked and the point that is made in v19 (in response to this young ruler's inquiry .. see below), but in this singularly unique case, that it is especially important to consider and factor in the One who is asking the question and making the point, as well.

Luke 18​

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” ​

19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.​

The Lord Jesus (who is God incarnate) uses this as another one of His teaching moments (for the ruler, and for us, too). So, when He asked the ruler saying, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone", He wasn't trying to help the ruler understand that He was neither "good" nor "God", but rather, that He was both!

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - as a last thought, consider what your insinuation (if true) would mean, that ALL would be lost/NONE would be saved, because we would be left w/o a Savior.

 

[Bob Estey]

Hello again Bob, in your first post you said the following things.

Atheists are hardly alone in asking that question, but it is, indeed, one that they love to ask us (of course, sadly, they typically use it to make a point, not to further enlighten or educate themselves ).


As far as your insinuation goes ... that in v19 the Lord Jesus repudiates His own teachings, about Who and what He is, by declaring Himself to be nothing more than a mere man, which would mean, if true, that He was neither "good" nor "God", but "evil", and a sinner, just like all of the rest of us are .. e.g. Luke 11:11-13 ... nothing could be further from the truth, a point that the rest of the Scriptures, and especially verses like Matthew 19:17, help make clear for us.

So, consider again not only the question that is asked and the point that is made in v19 (in response to this young ruler's inquiry .. see below), but in this singularly unique case, that it is especially important to consider and factor in the One who is asking the question and making the point, as well.

Luke 18​

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” ​

19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.​

The Lord Jesus (who is God incarnate) uses this as another one of His teaching moments (for the ruler, and for us, too). So, when He asked the ruler saying, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone", He wasn't trying to help the ruler understand that He was neither "good" nor "God", but rather, that He was both!

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - as a last thought, consider what your insinuation (if true) would mean, that ALL would be lost/NONE would be saved, because we would be left w/o a Savior.

Like Jesus said, none of us is good.