Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

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Marymog

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The revelation of truth from God has always been progressive…..the Jews, for example had no knowledge of the kingdom’s ruling from heaven. They assumed that Messiah’s kingdom would be on earth.…that was partly true….the rulership would be over earthly inhabitants, but it’s rulers would reign from heaven. Even the apostles didn’t know that till Pentecost.
I agree, the revelation of truth has been progressive. The Church teaches and believes that also. But what your men have done is CHANGED the truth of what Russell and his men were originally allegedly told to by God!

Your man Russell came along 1,800 years AFTER the death of Christ and 300 years AFTER the Reformers started the revolution which means a whole bunch of truths had been "revealed" to various men over those years BEFORE Russel and his crew came along. You even said, Russell and his colleagues were united in their search for the truth of the Bible, so they undertook careful study of just the scriptures themselves, without the input of commentaries of the so-called scholars who really can’t even agree with each other. With that said it should have been very easy for Russel and his men to root out what was true and not true since they had 2,000 years of writings from men they KNEW weren't telling the truth. If they, as you say, threw out all preconceived ideas taught by Christendom and her many denominations, and allowed the Bible to speak for itself, how did they get so many things wrong. Correction; why did God allow them to get so many things wrong that they had to be changed later? Did they not hold to their own rule; If it’s not scriptural and backed up by the rest of the Bible, we rejected it.

Curious mary
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Again…no. Change had to come to address the rot that had clearly set in….and there had to be someone brave enough to stand up and tell them to clean up their act…..indulgences….really? It’s like a monopoly game…get out of jail if you pay enough money……how disgusting!…and that wasn’t all….
That reformist rhetoric is based on the errors or one man, John Tezel, who was corrected by his bishop. The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). That was 457 years ago, and anti-Catholics have been complaining about prior abuses ever since.
The reason why I accept the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is because of the timing of their appearance on the world scene….from small beginnings, an unrelated group of men were drawn together who all had the same desire…to study God’s word and rid themselves of the contaminants that had built up over many centuries….just as Daniel had foretold. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) He said that in “the time of the end” God would cleanse, whiten and refine“ his worshippers, and that there would be an “abundance of knowledge” available at that time. He also said that the wicked would not understand or be given any insight.
That's a shallow excuse to start a new church.

Daniel 8: 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.​
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.​
Who is the Prince of princes that this evil power stands against?

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession. Today's prophets of doom need to re-think Daniel.
Unless the Bible could be placed back into the hands of the people, no one would ever know what it taught……this is why the church got away with so much for so long. No one could check and see that what they were being taught was actually the truth….the church forbade anyone to read or possess a copy of the Bible.
More historical falsehoods. The Bible has been read out loud for all to hear in LITURGY (public worship) since the 1st century.

The Canon was fixed in the 4th Century when Pope St. Damasus blessed the findings of the Council of Rome in 382. This was reaffirmed in his letter on the Canon to the Bishops in Asia Minor in 405. In 418, the canons of the 16 North African Councils were declared official Church teaching by the Pope. In 787, Nicea II reaffirmed the authority of these councils. In 1483, Pope Eugenius wrote the Letter to the Jacobites as the closing act of the Council of Florence and there he affirmed the Canon of Hippo. St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory the Great, St. Albertus Magnus and all of the major fathers of the Middle Ages affirmed the Canon of Hippo. These giants of Christian orthodoxy are liars, according to you.

Luther's Protestant Bible came out 1520 and before his Bible the Catholic Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian, Hungarian and English, there was exactly 104 editions in Latin; 38 editions in German language, 25 editions in Italian language, 18 in French. In all 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world.

"the Catholic Church kept the Bible from the hands of the people" is a diabolical lie from the pits of hell.
 
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Marymog

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That reformist rhetoric is based on the errors or one man, John Tezel, who was corrected by his bishop. The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). That was 457 years ago, and anti-Catholics have been complaining about prior abuses ever since.

That's a shallow excuse to start a new church.

Daniel 8: 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.​
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.​
Who is the Prince of princes that this evil power stands against?

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession. Today's prophets of doom need to re-think Daniel.

More historical falsehoods. The Bible has been read out loud for all to hear in LITURGY (public worship) since the 1st century.

The Canon was fixed in the 4th Century when Pope St. Damasus blessed the findings of the Council of Rome in 382. This was reaffirmed in his letter on the Canon to the Bishops in Asia Minor in 405. In 418, the canons of the 16 North African Councils were declared official Church teaching by the Pope. In 787, Nicea II reaffirmed the authority of these councils. In 1483, Pope Eugenius wrote the Letter to the Jacobites as the closing act of the Council of Florence and there he affirmed the Canon of Hippo. St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory the Great, St. Albertus Magnus and all of the major fathers of the Middle Ages affirmed the Canon of Hippo. These giants of Christian orthodoxy are liars, according to you.

Luther's Protestant Bible came out 1520 and before his Bible the Catholic Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian, Hungarian and English, there was exactly 104 editions in Latin; 38 editions in German language, 25 editions in Italian language, 18 in French. In all 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world.

"the Catholic Church kept the Bible from the hands of the people" is a diabolical lie from the pits of hell.
I have a feeling that @Aunty Jane doesn't care that the Bible has been read out loud for all to hear in LITURGY (public worship) since the 1st century. I pointed that out to her also.

Aunt Jane believes that once the bible was actually in the hands of a majority of Christians, THEN and only then did God decide to reveal the truth to Christianity thru the men of the JW church. Men who TRULY understood the bible. At least that is what I understand Aunt Jane to be saying from her previous posts.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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I have a feeling that @Aunty Jane doesn't care that the Bible has been read out loud for all to hear in LITURGY (public worship) since the 1st century. I pointed that out to her also.
Yes, it's really sad. Luther's "superior" translation was in German, not English.

The Bible was divided into chapters by Bishop Stephen Langton in the 13th century, and verse numbers were added in the 15th and 16th centuries. A committee in 1950, who uses these added chapter and verse numbers are following additions by the Archbishop of Canterbury, who was Catholic at the time. Will ironies ever cease?

The first Bible to be printed in the modern chapter-verse format was Stephanus' Latin Bible of 1555. The first English Bible to incorporate these divisions was the popular Geneva English Bible of 1557, 54 years before the 1611 King James Bible. The math isn't hard.

Aunt Jane believes that once the bible was actually in the hands of a majority of Christians, THEN and only then did God decide to reveal the truth to Christianity thru the men of the JW church. Men who TRULY understood the bible. At least that is what I understand Aunt Jane to be saying from her previous posts.
The Latin Vulgate was full of mistranslations until a committee of "scholars" showed up in 1950. It's a circular argument.

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Example: The NWT facts are true because it contains these facts.​
 
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Marymog

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Russell and his colleagues were from different denominations, but dissatisfied and disenchanted with the clearly corrupt and inept church system, they were united in their search for the truth of the Bible, so they undertook careful study of just the scriptures themselves, without the input of commentaries of the so called scholars who really can’t even agree with each other…..pick your scholars. Pick your translation.

They basically threw out all preconceived ideas taught by Christendom and her many denominations, and allowed the Bible to speak for itself…..they were shocked at how much the Catholic church in particular, had added to what the scriptures taught. So they systematically eliminated from their list of biblically based beliefs anything that was brought in from outside of scripture. That is why we have no beliefs in common with the church system that evolved from the RCC. All are based on a Catholic foundation…..not on the Bible.

If it’s not scriptural and backed up by the rest of the Bible, we rejected it. It’s amazing how simple things became once all the excess baggage was thrown out the door.
Hey Jane,

You trust Russell and his colleagues because they threw out all preconceived ideas taught by "inept" Christendom and its many denominations. Russell and his crew simply allowed the Bible to speak for itself! Putting your theory to the test, wouldn't the Apostolic Fathers (AF's) be the perfect test candidates for this instead of Russell and his crew? The AF's had the Apostles as their teachers which means they didn't have any preconceived ideas taught by The Catholic Church or Christendom and its many denominations. What they were taught was straight from the Apostles which means there was no need for them to "systematically eliminate from their list of biblically based beliefs anything that was brought in from outside of Scripture."

With that said, do you agree with the writings (teachings) of the Apostolic Fathers OVER the men of the JW denomination?

Curious Mary
 
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Aunty Jane

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Thank you for the clarification that you were metaphorically thanking God for Luther dividing Christianity. I agree, there were centuries of abuse in The Church. It needed some changes to root out corruption.
According to Jesus, in his instructions for his disciples before his ascension.....

“And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NRSVCE)

If Jesus was going to be “with” his disciples “to the end of the age”.....how is it that “the church” became corrupt in the first place? Would Jesus be a party to that?
What was done to root out the corruption when to this day, it is all still there....bigger and better than ever?
It is very apparent that those who see the pope as their substitute for Christ, have no idea what happens inside the walls of that protected and secretive city. God is just waiting to lift the lid and show you all where you have put your faith.

The apostle Peter wrote....
“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, and because of these teachers the way of truth will be maligned. And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (NRSVCE)

The judgment is coming......there is a lot to answer for.
It appears to me that you are saying that Luther (and the other Reformers around that same time) 'got the ball rolling to set the stage' for your man Russell to come on the scene 300 years later with the truth and bring it back to 'being Christian'. Is that the gist of what you are saying?
It was Daniel who prophesied the things that would take place in “the time of the end”.....and true to prophesy, we are in “the time of the end” right now......and what we are looking forward to will soon take place....the time when every evil thing on this planet will be eliminated....forever....to usher in the rulership of God’s Kingdom.....which is why Jesus taught us to pray for it to “come” to us....not that we should go to it.

Is this what Catholic people believe? I never hear them speak of it......yet the warning is there for all to read.
Why do some not see it as plain as day? Because Daniel also said...

“At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. . . . . .But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end. Many shall be running back and forth, and evil shall increase.” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked shall continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.” (NRSVCE)

So the time for the protector of God’s people to “arise”, would come, and usher in a time of great trouble, which equates to “the great tribulation” that Jesus foretold in Matt 24:21. We are heading into that as we speak. Can’t you see it? Every part of the sign that Jesus gave in Matt 24, to demonstrate the reality of his “presence” has been fulfilled except the very last thing.

Who are the “wise” who will “shine as brightly as the sky”, “leading “many to righteousness”? And who are “the wicked” who will understand nothing? A majority? Or a hated minority? (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)

I will leave that for Christ himself to reveal.....he will tell us all soon enough if we have put our faith in the right teachers. The proof of the pudding, as they say.....
 
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Aunty Jane

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Interesting AJ.....the timing is what sold you?

Did you know that over the last 2,000 years there have been dozens if not hundreds of men who have done the same thing your JW men have done? Why were the JW men the ones you decided to follow and not the dozens of other men that have done the same thing?
You think the great deceiver is stupid? One of his most successful tactics is confusion.....give people too many choices and they won’t know who or what to believe....look at how many choices he has created that are leading people in all directions......the diamond is buried in a pile of broken glass....but God himself will lead his own to the diamond......no one can come to the Father without his personal invitation. He has promised to “draw” right hearted ones to his truth.....others he has left to their chosen delusions. (John 6:44; 65)

“The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.” (2 Thess 2:9-12 NRSVCE)

The blinded ones are blind by their own choice, and the reality will hit hard when it comes.....(2 Cor 4:3-4; Matt 7:21-23)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Hey Jane,

You trust Russell and his colleagues because they threw out all preconceived ideas taught by "inept" Christendom and its many denominations. Russell and his crew simply allowed the Bible to speak for itself! Putting your theory to the test, wouldn't the Apostolic Fathers (AF's) be the perfect test candidates for this instead of Russell and his crew? The AF's had the Apostles as their teachers which means they didn't have any preconceived ideas taught by The Catholic Church or Christendom and its many denominations. What they were taught was straight from the Apostles which means there was no need for them to "systematically eliminate from their list of biblically based beliefs anything that was brought in from outside of Scripture."

With that said, do you agree with the writings (teachings) of the Apostolic Fathers OVER the men of the JW denomination?
Since NO writings of the apostolic fathers appear in Scripture, I will have to say that because the apostasy was already ”at work” when the apostles were still alive, (2 Thess 2:1-12) and they were thereby acting as a “restraint”, if the writings of those men do not corroborate the teachings of Christ, then I have to say that apostate thinking had already infiltrated by the time of the apostle John’s death. So I trust what my brothers have taught because they follow Christ’s teachings rather than be led astray by those who failed to do so after the end of the first century......when Paul says that the teachings of apostates had already “spread like gangrene”, what is that illustrating but the speed at which apostasy spread among those who accepted their words over the words of the Christ?
 

Aunty Jane

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That reformist rhetoric is based on the errors or one man, John Tezel, who was corrected by his bishop. The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). That was 457 years ago, and anti-Catholics have been complaining about prior abuses ever since.
Wait a minute....you think that the abuses stopped there? What about the track record of abuses in Roman Catholic institutions all over the world for God knows how long until they were brought to light by victims of those despicable clergy? Both nuns and priests were guilty of the most heinous abuses (both in physical and emotional cruelty and sexual depravity) and the children who were their victims had no one to appeal to for help. Nothing even comes close to the level of abuse seen in these institutions. Supposedly ‘celebrate’ priests were even having sex with the nuns and babies were born who were either taken to orphanages or adopted by Catholic families unaware of their origins.

How do you excuse that?
That's a shallow excuse to start a new church.
Actually it wasn’t a new church at all.....it was a re-establishment of the original, lost in the mire of Christendom’s countless denominations. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not just another denomination but a complete departure from an apostate church system, centuries in the making, and completely lost, spiritually. They can’t seem to agree about anything except the foundational doctrines of the RCC which were never scriptural to begin with. The “weeds” that Jesus foretold flourished when the apostles died and their influence was lost.
Jesus came in the first century, not to establish a new religion.....but to re-establish true worship among his own people. But like the RCC the Pharisees wanted no part of that, so instead of humbly accepting his corrections they conspired against him and persecuted those who followed his teachings. They accused him of apostasy and blasphemy and yet they were the apostates and blasphemers.....history repeats, but not many can see that the devil has no new tricks.
Daniel 8: 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.Who is the Prince of princes that this evil power stands against?

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession. Today's prophets of doom need to re-think Daniel.
Or your own church needs to rethink everything it teaches....

Daniel ch 2 reveals the details of a dream given to Nebuchadnezzar by God himself.

In it was depicted a huge image made of different metals in descending order...a head of gold, arms and chest of silver, belly and thighs of copper and legs of iron, with feet being a mixture of iron and clay. A huge stone was seen, not of human origin, to strike the image on its feet so that the entire image fell and was smashed into pieces and the wind came and blew them all away......it’s an interesting picture but one that the king could not recall....only that it disturbed him greatly.

He demanded that his priests reveal the dream and its meaning under threat of death.....Daniel was also included in this death threat, so He asked God to reveal the dream and its meaning, which he did. Daniel was brought before the king and explained the dream to him....as a reward , Daniel was made Prime Minister of the Babylonian kingdom.

So what did Daniel say was the meaning of the dream......this was a march of world powers...not just any world powers but those who were directly involved with God’s people down through time.

Babylon was identified as the head of gold....followed by Medo Persia, who conquered Babylon in one night with hardly any resistance given, as they were completely unprepared for an invasion. They imagined that their city was impregnable but God was behind this act and Babylon fell as it was prophesied......God even named the conquerer and his methods way before the event.

MedoPeria was in turn conquered by Alexander the Great so the copper represented Greece. In turn after the untimely death of Alexander, Rome entered the world scene as a force to be reckoned with....the legs of iron, crushing all in their wake. But who conquered Rome? No one....Rome fell due to its own decadence, weaken from its own moral decay......however, out of the ashes of Rome emerged Britannia....another world conquerer, but she had children that she left behind in all her territories. One of whom she became allied with as the superpower of the 20th century....Anglo-America.....now we are in the time of the feet of iron and clay.

What is it in this mixture that creates weakness in this global giant? It’s called democracy....a government supposedly “of the people, by the people and for the people”....but this apparently only worked in theory like all the other kinds of human rulership mankind has tried down through the ages.
Even Britain with her monarchy had to put them aside as a mere tourist attraction in order to implement democratic rule. Democracy creates factions of dissent that undermine the rule and power of governments. The will of the people undermine the government’s power to implement its will. Don’t we see this more and more as time goes on? Isn’t this why we are being prepared for the final rulership of this world in a totalitarian “one world government” under which we will see the entire human race subjugated to what amounts to enforced slavery.....the Bible foretells this very thing....are you all awake as to what is coming?

This is the time for Daniel 2:44 to see its fulfilment. In the time of these final kings.....
“The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.”

Do we understand what that means...? I don’t think you even have a clue...

All failed human rulership under the influence of the devil, will be eliminated and replaced with the rulership we should have had from the beginning......God’s Kingdom will restore God’s rightful Sovereignty over the whole earth, having destroyed all the things that the devil set up to lead mankind astray......political, commercial and religious empires will crash....smashed to a million pieces by the power of our God.
We will be found either on God’s side or on the other side with satan and his hordes. How we live and what we believe will determine our position.

More historical falsehoods. The Bible has been read out loud for all to hear in LITURGY (public worship) since the 1st century.
Find me a single mention of liturgy, a pope, adoration of Mary, an immaculate conception, the use of images in worship, an earthly priesthood, saints dictated by church criteria, distinctive garments denoting an office of service, repetitive prayers, absolution by a priest, holy water, the use of incense, monasticism, vows of silence, and heaven or a hell of eternal damnation, as opposite destinations for all souls....please, I invite you to show us any of these things in any passage of Christian Scripture. There is a longer list if you’d like one....

History is an interesting read.....

With the invention of the printing press, more people could now possess their own Bible, a development the Catholic Church did not endorse. In 1559 Pope Paul IV ruled that no Bible could be printed in the vernacular without church approval, and this the church refused to grant. In fact, in 1564 Pope Pius IV stated: “Experience has shown that if reading of the Bible in the vulgar tongue is permitted indiscriminately, . . . more harm than good arises therefrom.”
What did they have to fear? I think we know....if people could read the Bible for themselves they would not find what the RCC teaches.

The Reformation was a religious revolution, but it produced a new kind of “Christianity”, not based on the Bible, but on the foundation of unbiblical Catholic doctrine.
It replaced the authority of the papacy with individual free choice. Catholic Mass was replaced by the Protestant liturgy, and awesome Catholic cathedrals by normally less pretentious Protestant churches.

Yet, all of this is a complete departure from the beliefs and practices of the first Christians......instead of remaining humble preachers, men took power and became exactly what what the Pharisees were....”blind guides” to equally blinded people. (Matt 23:13-15, 24, 33)
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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If Jesus was going to be “with” his disciples “to the end of the age”.....how is it that “the church” became corrupt in the first place?
That's your belief, it doesn't measure up to Sacred Scripture. A committee of self-proclaimed scholars came up with a designer Bible that muddled the Incarnation by playing word games. They claimed the scriptures were in error in the first place by demonizing the Church that wrote, preserved, compiled, canonized and proclaimed the Sacred Books in the first place. The NWT is a travesty, as explained in post #439 with a minimum of examples exposing devious Bible twistings in order to support innovative man made traditions. Would Jesus be a party to that?

The term “Jehovah” first appeared in the 13th century when Christian scholars took the consonants of “Yahweh” and pronounced it with the vowels of “Adonai”12. The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270. The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century3. The vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Jehovah was first introduced by William Tyndale in his translation of Exodus 6:33. (who was executed by an English court for his social disruptions, not by the CC) I'm sure JW's are nice sincere people, but the very name "Jehovah's Witnesses" is a 16th century man made tradition in itself. Would Jesus be a party to that?

If Jesus was going to be “with” his disciples “to the end of the age”.....how is it that “the church” became corrupt in the first place?
By ignoring the facts of the history of the early church, and re-writing history so it fits a false narrative. Humans can be corrupted, but the Deposit of Faith cannot, or Jesus lied. Somebody must be lying; it isn't Jesus.

One might say that an automobile was “corrupt” if the owner decided that it ran better with no muffler, no shocks, no air or fuel filters, half of its spark plugs, watered-down gas, no rear brakes, one headlight, no heat, three quarts low on oil, with half of its radiator coolant, etc. Corruption can consist of “subtraction” as well as “addition.” Protestantism, and its 18th century offshoots, charges against Catholicism closely scrutinized, only comes back to incriminate themselves.

It’s important to understand that the Church does not, indeed cannot, change the doctrines God has given it, nor can it “invent” new ones and add them to the deposit of faith that has been “once for all delivered to the saints.” New beliefs are not invented, but obscurities and misunderstandings regarding the deposit of faith are cleared up.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Since NO writings of the apostolic fathers appear in Scripture.
The Apostolic Fathers meticulously preserved, compiled, canonized and proclaimed the Scriptures in the 4th century. Your statement is self-defeating and absurd.
Wait a minute....you think that the abuses stopped there?
I'm talking about abuses by one man, John Tezel, and how the Church put an end to it. Since you cannot accept that, you ramble on with false caricatures and religious profiling that has nothing to do with ending prior abuses in the 16th century.
But you will kling-on to your myths like a rotten albatross, and refuse to read my links.
What about the track record of abuses in Roman Catholic institutions all over the world for God knows how long until they were brought to light by victims of those despicable clergy? Both nuns and priests were guilty of the most heinous abuses (both in physical and emotional cruelty and sexual depravity) and the children who were their victims had no one to appeal to for help. Nothing even comes close to the level of abuse seen in these institutions. Supposedly ‘celebrate’ priests were even having sex with the nuns and babies were born who were either taken to orphanages or adopted by Catholic families unaware of their origins.

How do you excuse that?
We don't deny there are sinful clergy in the Church, we deny your false caricatures and exaggerations. This article is only a few days old, it explains the stubborn anti-Catholic mindset that won't go away.

MEDIA BLACKOUT ON CLERGY ABUSE DATA​

Bill Donohue
Whenever there is a whiff of bad news about the Catholic Church, the mainstream media never miss a beat in reporting it. But when there is good news, they go mute. The latest example is the news about the almost complete eradication of clergy sexual abuse. Not one secular media outlet in the United States ran a story on this issue.

Every year, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) issues an annual report on clergy sexual abuse. The audit is prepared by StoneBridge Business Partners, which works in cooperation with the National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People, a lay advisory board established by the USCCB.

The 2023 report, which covered allegations made between July 1, 2022 and June 30, 2023, found that there were 1,308 allegations involving 17 current year minors. Four of the allegations were made by males and 11 by females; 2 were listed as unknown. Of the 17, only 3 were substantiated.

During this period, there were 47,987 members of the clergy. This means that 0.006 percent of them had a substantiated case of sexual abuse made against him by a minor. (In the previous year’s report, there were 7 substantiated cases.) Of the accused, 91 percent are either dead or have been kicked out of ministry.

If there had been a sharp uptick in the number of cases, it would be all over the news. Such a story would have been picked up by the Associated Press, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, the Washington Post, NPR, PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC—and every left-wing internet and social media site. But because this problem has all been wiped out, practically no one knows anything about it.

The fact that more females than males are making these allegations suggests that the crackdown on homosexuals in the priesthood has worked. They are responsible for 8-in-10 cases of the sexual abuse of minors (only a very small percentage of these offenses have ever been committed by pedophiles). For more detail on this see my book, The Truth about Clergy Sexual Abuse: Clarifying the Facts and the Causes.
Congratulations to the bishops for implementing the necessary reforms. And shame on journalists and the talking heads for the total media blackout. There is no other organization in the nation where adults regularly interact with minors that has a better record on this issue than the Catholic Church.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Bishops are instructed, by Vatican directive, to report all allegations of abuse to the police.
JW's sweep it under the rug.
Would Jesus be a party to that?

 

Jude Thaddeus

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“The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.”
2000 years and we are standing stronger that ever. A kingdom with no queen would have been unthinkable to a 1st century Jew. The Davidic Kingdom was monarchical. You don't know what means. A collection of "Kingdom Halls" is not in the Bible.
In 1559 Pope Paul IV ruled that no Bible could be printed in the vernacular without church approval, and this the church refused to grant. In fact, in 1564 Pope Pius IV stated: “Experience has shown that if reading of the Bible in the vulgar tongue is permitted indiscriminately, . . . more harm than good arises therefrom.”
What did they have to fear? I think we know....if people could read the Bible for themselves they would not find what the RCC teaches.
False Bibles were rejected, the same as any Christian would reject a gender free Bible.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Are Jesus and Michael the Archangel Really the Same Person?​

One of the most peculiar of the WTS’s teachings is their assertion that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel. If the JW has difficulty explaining any particular doctrine, it will be this one. Even JWs will admit that if one were to have walked up to any of the apostles or disciples of Christ and asked them who Jesus was, they would not have said, “Well, he’s Michael the Archangel!” Not only was the very idea unheard of before Charles Taze Russell (the founder of the WTS), but the Bible explicitly rejects the possibility of it.

For example, the author of Hebrews states, “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my son? . . . Let all the angels of God worship him. . . . to which of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand . . . ’” (Heb. 1). Here, the author of Hebrews separates Jesus from angels, and commands the angels to worship him (cf. Rev. 5:13-14,14:6-7). The obvious problem is this: archangels are creatures, but the Bible forbids any creature to worship another creature. Thus, either the Bible is in error by commanding the angels to worship an archangel, or Jesus is uncreated and cannot be an archangel. Since this gave the JWs a tremendous problem, they even had to change their own Bible translation, called the New World Translation (NWT), to eliminate the references to worshipping Christ.
Would Jesus be a party to that?
 
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Aunty Jane

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@Angelina This thread has degenerated into a brawl, and should not be open to further replies.
LOL....really? Since when is telling the truth, ‘brawling’? Did big bad Aunty Jane say nasty things about your church? You want to tell JW’s about nasty things being said....? We cop more abuse for less offence than anyone. The funny thing is what I presented to you was a short list of teachings that your church promotes as “God given” truth, when not a single one of them originates from Scripture.....how about you address those?...instead of appealing to mods to save you......you came here of your own free will.
“If you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen”.....

It’s important to understand that the Church does not, indeed cannot, change the doctrines God has given it, nor can it “invent” new ones and add them to the deposit of faith that has been “once for all delivered to the saints.” New beliefs are not invented, but obscurities and misunderstandings regarding the deposit of faith are cleared up.
Are you serious? If you cannot present evidence to support your beliefs from Scripture, then they are not “God given” at all....they are all man-made, borrowed traditions and beliefs, merely passed off as “Christianity” on a population who could not verify them......the fact that you cannot authenticate them is telling.
The Apostolic Fathers meticulously preserved, compiled, canonized and proclaimed the Scriptures in the 4th century. Your statement is self-defeating and absurd.
Yet not a single word was written by any one of them. Who compiled them is inconsequential as God was keeping his purpose on track by using whoever was in a position to have his will accomplished.
God used Babylon to punish his errant nation for 70 years, but later had Babylon destroyed. God can use whomever he pleases to accomplish his will.
I'm talking about abuses by one man, John Tezel, and how the Church put an end to it. Since you cannot accept that, you ramble on with false caricatures and religious profiling that has nothing to do with ending prior abuses in the 16th century.
Since we were talking about abuses, where is the false caricature? Abuse comes in many forms as the RCC can well attest. No institution on earth has notched up as much physical, mental, spiritual and sexual abuse than the RCC....and on a global scale.
No organisations who have access to children are immune from these predators, but the RCC created the circumstances to groom them. It became a haven for homosexuals and pedophiles.....the church knew what they were doing and simply moved them on to abuse other children in a different parish.

Forbidding their priests to marry and forcing them to remain celibate, was unscriptural and against anything the Bible had to say on marriage and sexual conduct. The early popes were married and fathered children. Why did that stop?
The 2023 report, which covered allegations made between July 1, 2022 and June 30, 2023, found that there were 1,308 allegations involving 17 current year minors. Four of the allegations were made by males and 11 by females; 2 were listed as unknown. Of the 17, only 3 were substantiated.
2022-2023? What about the centuries before that? Are they just swept under the rug? Statistics count for nothing when dealing with individual human suffering...you can’t cancel that out with numbers.
If there had been a sharp uptick in the number of cases, it would be all over the news. Such a story would have been picked up by the Associated Press, the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, the Washington Post, NPR, PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC—and every left-wing internet and social media site. But because this problem has all been wiped out, practically no one knows anything about it.
I am waiting for the news one day that exposes what is going on behind closed doors and in the deep, dark secret places in the Vatican.....it is coming to light, but God will expose it all in the near future. He will not need controlled news media.
The fact that more females than males are making these allegations suggests that the crackdown on homosexuals in the priesthood has worked.
That is so comforting for the female victims, I am sure.
Bishops are instructed, by Vatican directive, to report all allegations of abuse to the police.
JW's sweep it under the rug.
No, I’m sorry, we too have a complete set of directives that means reporting sexual abuse to the authorities.

What we have to realise is that in times past there were no female judges and most male judges did not really take sexual abuse cases seriously. The court system of the time exposed the victims to strong cross examination with their abuser in the courtroom, and being harassed by their abuser’s lawyer, which made the court case more traumatic for the victim than the abuse itself.....it was not a place where justice was served, as children were often fobbed off as incapable of telling the truth. It is one of the hardest cases to substantiate with witnesses because it is carried on in secret, often with threats of reprisal.

We are thankful now that children are no longer subjected to those things. They are heard and believed and protected.
 
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RLT63

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Fascinating arguments from both sides. Lots of (competing) history
 
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Marymog

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Since NO writings of the apostolic fathers appear in Scripture, I will have to say that because the apostasy was already ”at work” when the apostles were still alive, (2 Thess 2:1-12) and they were thereby acting as a “restraint”, if the writings of those men do not corroborate the teachings of Christ, then I have to say that apostate thinking had already infiltrated by the time of the apostle John’s death. So I trust what my brothers have taught because they follow Christ’s teachings rather than be led astray by those who failed to do so after the end of the first century......when Paul says that the teachings of apostates had already “spread like gangrene”, what is that illustrating but the speed at which apostasy spread among those who accepted their words over the words of the Christ?
Lol...Hold on...HOLD ON!! I'm trying to figure out if you are being serious here!!

Since the writings of the AF's DON'T appear in Scripture and YOU don't think that the writings of the AF's "corroborate the teachings of Christ" you don't trust what they wrote? But you do think that the writings of your JW men "corroborate the teachings of Christ"? Jesus, holding up the bread/wine, said this IS my body/blood and 30 years later Paul affirmed what Jesus said. Thirty plus years later the AF's agreed with Jesus and Paul but according to you the AF's were apostate for agreeing with Jesus and Paul. Your JW men disagree with Jesus saying the bread/wine is only a symbol of His body/blood....But your JW men are not apostate and the AF's are? :IDK:

You don't trust THEIR commentary on Scripture, but you trust the commentary on Scripture of your JW men? YOUR MEN follow "Christ’s teachings" but the men who walked and talked and were students of the Apostles possibly didn't follow Christs teachings because apostasy had already entered the Church by the time of Johns death? :pray: Oh dear God......I don't know what to say.
 

Marymog

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Bishops are instructed, by Vatican directive, to report all allegations of abuse to the police.
JW's sweep it under the rug.
Would Jesus be a party to that?

Hey Jude.

@Aunty Jane lost me when she suggested the Apostolic Fathers were apostate saying we can't trust their writings/commentaries concerning Scripture. But the men of the JW we can trust.

It is impossible to have a serious conversation with someone like that......Good luck.

Mary
 
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