Reasoning Together

[Netchaplain]

What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

It is this very “work” that keeps one from ever desiring to return to the former state of an unregenerate—which is “irrevocable” (Rom 11:29 - NKJV). If you’re reborn God will “keep you from evil” and “keep you from falling” (2Th 3:3; Jude 1:24), otherwise none could possibly remain in the faith; which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.

No matter who you are, there will always be a certain degree of misinterpretation of Scripture (concerning spiritual growth but not how to receive salvation), as it often presents statements that require researching beyond how a passage is given. This difficulty exists to confound the hypocrite (believers never cease from seeking truth), and admonish the saved to study; and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice, there will always be a weighty time-lag in your learning progress

 

[michaelvpardo]

Years ago, in the first congregation that I became a member of and about 3 years after believing the gospel, I recall hearing at least one older woman referring to herself as "back slidden ". Even so, she still attended worship services, Sunday school, and prayer meetings regularly, displaying a loving attitude.

Once, while doing street evangelism with a brother in Christ, we encountered a couple with a young family who confessed that they were once regular attendees at a local church but had stopped about 3 years previously. They had lost a child and it shook their faith. We prayed with them for healing and restoration, which they seemed to appreciate, but I couldn't say if they returned to a congregation. Yet, the Lord put them in our way when we were out sharing the good news.

In my own experience, my wife of 22 years decided that I was emotionally abusive, forced me from my home so that a male friend could move in, and divorced me after a 2 year separation. After that experience, I was very uncomfortable with the idea of having to explain myself in attending church services, or even seeking prayer.

After my divorce I moved to North Eastern PA, and though I had the desire to join myself to a local congregation, the pandemic closed down the local assemblies. While I still desire fellowship in worship and Bible study, I still haven't commenced a search for a home congregation, as the pandemic is ongoing and my health has been questionable, possibly with multiple infections over the last 2 years.

The scripture very plainly warns us not to judge "another man's servant " and I believe that we can't know who has fallen away if the congregational drop outs are still hearing the "upward call" of the Lord.

Having said this, in my own experience, I find it harder to resist sin without the support of a loving and encouraging congregation. Isn't mutual edification, encouragement, and support the very purpose of a congregation?
Can a body survive divided?
Is judging stumbling brethren in any way helpful if it doesn't lead to restoration?

I've attended solid fellowships and I've attended congregations that were little more than social clubs with groups in "Holy huddles" who never ceased judging others. Would you remain in the latter?

Some people make a great noise over doctrine and I can't help but believe that they do this because it's one of the only things within their control in the context of the church.
The church is the Lord's and not ours. He places people where He sees fit without seeking our agreement. He raises up people in ministry regardless of our opinions of them. He works in us according to His will and not our own. But we can make artificial divisions according to our limited knowledge and define our "brethren" according to our own flawed understanding. My reading of scripture informs me that such carnality of thought has persisted since the Epistles were written, but I could be mistaken.

 

[marks]

Some people make a great noise over doctrine and I can't help but believe that they do this because it's one of the only things within their control in the context of the church.

Maybe so. But the real thing we ARE able to control is that we serve others.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

It is this very “work” that keeps one from ever desiring to return to the former state of an unregenerate—which is “irrevocable” (Rom 11:29 - NKJV). If you’re reborn God will “keep you from evil” and “keep you from falling” (2Th 3:3; Jude 1:24), otherwise none could possibly remain in the faith; which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.

No matter who you are, there will always be a certain degree of misinterpretation of Scripture (concerning spiritual growth but not how to receive salvation), as it often presents statements that require researching beyond how a passage is given. This difficulty exists to confound the hypocrite (believers never cease from seeking truth), and admonish the saved to study; and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice, there will always be a weighty time-lag in your learning progress

Yes, Eternal Life is "eternal" life. Once you have it, you have it. But it does require a complete forfeiture of our own natural choices for spiritual choices emanating from God in heaven. It requires Spiritual Rebirth.

Can the Christian backslide? Of course. We can all cave to temptation, and to some degree, we all do on occasion. In fact, we are inundated by a spirit that constantly tends towards the wrong direction--something we can fight and overcome. Sin is in us, but we are able, by the power of God, to overcome the Sin Inclination and persevere in living basically righteous lives.

I know those who adopted Christianity that seemed very real, but at a time when it was popular to do so. When they fell away, and they did, it appears they had never really been Reborn. I still have hope for some of them that when and if they are truly Reborn, then they will be less inclined to fall away.

Thanks for the good word. I have a lot more I could say on this from personal experience. But I'll make this short.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Years ago, in the first congregation that I became a member of and about 3 years after believing the gospel, I recall hearing at least one older woman referring to herself as "back slidden ". Even so, she still attended worship services, Sunday school, and prayer meetings regularly, displaying a loving attitude.

Once, while doing street evangelism with a brother in Christ, we encountered a couple with a young family who confessed that they were once regular attendees at a local church but had stopped about 3 years previously. They had lost a child and it shook their faith. We prayed with them for healing and restoration, which they seemed to appreciate, but I couldn't say if they returned to a congregation. Yet, the Lord put them in our way when we were out sharing the good news.

In my own experience, my wife of 22 years decided that I was emotionally abusive, forced me from my home so that a male friend could move in, and divorced me after a 2 year separation. After that experience, I was very uncomfortable with the idea of having to explain myself in attending church services, or even seeking prayer.

After my divorce I moved to North Eastern PA, and though I had the desire to join myself to a local congregation, the pandemic closed down the local assemblies. While I still desire fellowship in worship and Bible study, I still haven't commenced a search for a home congregation, as the pandemic is ongoing and my health has been questionable, possibly with multiple infections over the last 2 years.

The scripture very plainly warns us not to judge "another man's servant " and I believe that we can't know who has fallen away if the congregational drop outs are still hearing the "upward call" of the Lord.

Having said this, in my own experience, I find it harder to resist sin without the support of a loving and encouraging congregation. Isn't mutual edification, encouragement, and support the very purpose of a congregation?
Can a body survive divided?
Is judging stumbling brethren in any way helpful if it doesn't lead to restoration?

I've attended solid fellowships and I've attended congregations that were little more than social clubs with groups in "Holy huddles" who never ceased judging others. Would you remain in the latter?

Some people make a great noise over doctrine and I can't help but believe that they do this because it's one of the only things within their control in the context of the church.
The church is the Lord's and not ours. He places people where He sees fit without seeking our agreement. He raises up people in ministry regardless of our opinions of them. He works in us according to His will and not our own. But we can make artificial divisions according to our limited knowledge and define our "brethren" according to our own flawed understanding. My reading of scripture informs me that such carnality of thought has persisted since the Epistles were written, but I could be mistaken.

My daughter is not far from you on the East Coast and has gone through divorce imposed by her husband. You know--irreconcilable differences kind of thing. My daughter had been raised up in the faith, but never really got Born Again. After her divorce she found Christ for real, but was still devastated by all of the disillusionment of her life, the betrayal of her and hurts imposed upon her by others, including Christians.

She has found great peace in recovery groups. I suggest you find some, particularly with good leadership. No church or group will help you with bad, judgmental leadership. We are all one Body in the Lord, but not every group will help you. You need to explore and be guided by wisdom. Pray for it!

 

[ScottA]

What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

It is this very “work” that keeps one from ever desiring to return to the former state of an unregenerate—which is “irrevocable” (Rom 11:29 - NKJV). If you’re reborn God will “keep you from evil” and “keep you from falling” (2Th 3:3; Jude 1:24), otherwise none could possibly remain in the faith; which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.

No matter who you are, there will always be a certain degree of misinterpretation of Scripture (concerning spiritual growth but not how to receive salvation), as it often presents statements that require researching beyond how a passage is given. This difficulty exists to confound the hypocrite (believers never cease from seeking truth), and admonish the saved to study; and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice, there will always be a weighty time-lag in your learning progress

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

Thank you!

 

[michaelvpardo]

My daughter is not far from you on the East Coast and has gone through divorce imposed by her husband. You know--irreconcilable differences kind of thing. My daughter had been raised up in the faith, but never really got Born Again. After her divorce she found Christ for real, but was still devastated by all of the disillusionment of her life, the betrayal of her and hurts imposed upon her by others, including Christians.

She has found great peace in recovery groups. I suggest you find some, particularly with good leadership. No church or group will help you with bad, judgmental leadership. We are all one Body in the Lord, but not every group will help you. You need to explore and be guided by wisdom. Pray for it!

Thank you for your kind advice. The Church that I attended before my divorce was in the process of building a ministry to support people going through or having gone through a divorce and I would have been comfortable in that fellowship, having participated in fellowship with many of its members, but my living situation took me out of the area.
I'm over a hundred miles from that area now and though I haven't joined another congregation yet, the Lord has put me in places where I've met some individuals sound in the faith and loving in their deportment. Oddly enough, these were also looking for mature congregations to join having been separated by the pandemic and not satisfied with the places they'd been.
I've seen a few local churches that have reopened in the area during the last year and am inclined to visit them, but the recurring surges of the pandemic have been discouraging. In the Stroudsburg area it seems that most congregations are on the small side and not likely to have developed support ministries for people in my situation. The only larger congregation that I'm aware of is a calvary chapel about a 40 minute drive away and my previous experience with a calvary chapel on the New Jersey shore was not particularly good, the congregation being very young (spiritually), and somewhat exclusive of new attendees. The congregation in my area may be more mature, but since these are newer churches and generally weak in doctrine, I wouldn't anticipate that.
I was living in my niece's home for 2 years while separated. She's a degreed professional counselor and our regular casual conversations helped me to put things in perspective so I'm actually prepared to deal with the kind of judgmental attitudes that you can encounter in small congregations. Life has given me pretty thick skin, but it's important to me that I find mature leadership and a pastor that isn't threatened by individuals who form quick relationships with like minded individuals. I never expected to encounter envy or jealousy from a church leader, but my experience has been that some are not immune to such faults.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thank you for your kind advice. The Church that I attended before my divorce was in the process of building a ministry to support people going through or having gone through a divorce and I would have been comfortable in that fellowship, having participated in fellowship with many of its members, but my living situation took me out of the area.
I'm over a hundred miles from that area now and though I haven't joined another congregation yet, the Lord has put me in places where I've met some individuals sound in the faith and loving in their deportment. Oddly enough, these were also looking for mature congregations to join having been separated by the pandemic and not satisfied with the places they'd been.
I've seen a few local churches that have reopened in the area during the last year and am inclined to visit them, but the recurring surges of the pandemic have been discouraging. In the Stroudsburg area it seems that most congregations are on the small side and not likely to have developed support ministries for people in my situation. The only larger congregation that I'm aware of is a calvary chapel about a 40 minute drive away and my previous experience with a calvary chapel on the New Jersey shore was not particularly good, the congregation being very young (spiritually), and somewhat exclusive of new attendees. The congregation in my area may be more mature, but since these are newer churches and generally weak in doctrine, I wouldn't anticipate that.
I was living in my niece's home for 2 years while separated. She's a degreed professional counselor and our regular casual conversations helped me to put things in perspective so I'm actually prepared to deal with the kind of judgmental attitudes that you can encounter in small congregations. Life has given me pretty thick skin, but it's important to me that I find mature leadership and a pastor that isn't threatened by individuals who form quick relationships with like minded individuals. I never expected to encounter envy or jealousy from a church leader, but my experience has been that some are not immune to such faults.

I kind of look at things very much the way you do. At some point in my life I came to realize that pastors were over-sold--they are so much like everybody else, except they tend to hide their flaws. If they have any real problems, they sort of hide away behind a veneer of "confidence." How else can they minister truth unless they look like they've found it? ;)

So I look at pastors now like I look at any other Christian, as flawed, as a bit deceptive, but still worthy of "double honor" for serving under duress. It's difficult to be a minister. I know a number of them.

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting a church so much as a recovery group. My daughter found a recovery group with a good Bible Study leader, and everybody got opportunity to share honestly from their own let downs, experiences, hopes, understandings. It's like Group Therapy with a Christian basis. The members have their own churches, but the recovery group is run separate from any particular church.

I've been to a Calvary Chapel, but it was just temporary. I like their emphasis on through the Bible Bible Study, but I'm not Dispensational, and they are heavy on Pretribism--I'm Postrib. That's really not such a big deal with me, because my present church is also Pretrib! ;)

But like you say, some churches are really "young." If you're young, and that's your cup of tea, there's nothing wrong with it. As I said, we're all one body, but there's enough room in the world now for different kinds of churches that focus on different kinds of ministries. The only thing with "young churches with young leaders" is that so much of what they teach is idealistic and lacks experience. It can easily run into judging etc.

My pet peeve is the historic structure of the church being dependent on a single pastor, who is the paid one and who does most all of the ministry, guidance, and control. I see that as dangerous as a monarchy in politics. One person doesn't have all of the gifts, except Christ. And Christ determined to express himself through manifold gifts.

So I think churches do better when they tolerate a variety of separate, independent ministries, such as Bible Study fellowships or Recovery Groups, etc.

You really need to pray for God to guide you, it seems. I wouldn't expect anything you find to be perfect, because there ain't no such thing! ;) Perhaps you can just sort of find fellowship in a "temporary mode," not committing to anything until you settle down?

Good luck brother. My heart goes out to you. I've seen the effects of divorce in many of my friends and relatives.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I kind of look at things very much the way you do. At some point in my life I came to realize that pastors were over-sold--they are so much like everybody else, except they tend to hide their flaws. If they have any real problems, they sort of hide away behind a veneer of "confidence." How else can they minister truth unless they look like they've found it? ;)

So I look at pastors now like I look at any other Christian, as flawed, as a bit deceptive, but still worthy of "double honor" for serving under duress. It's difficult to be a minister. I know a number of them.

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting a church so much as a recovery group. My daughter found a recovery group with a good Bible Study leader, and everybody got opportunity to share honestly from their own let downs, experiences, hopes, understandings. It's like Group Therapy with a Christian basis. The members have their own churches, but the recovery group is run separate from any particular church.

I've been to a Calvary Chapel, but it was just temporary. I like their emphasis on through the Bible Bible Study, but I'm not Dispensational, and they are heavy on Pretribism--I'm Postrib. That's really not such a big deal with me, because my present church is also Pretrib! ;)

But like you say, some churches are really "young." If you're young, and that's your cup of tea, there's nothing wrong with it. As I said, we're all one body, but there's enough room in the world now for different kinds of churches that focus on different kinds of ministries. The only thing with "young churches with young leaders" is that so much of what they teach is idealistic and lacks experience. It can easily run into judging etc.

My pet peeve is the historic structure of the church being dependent on a single pastor, who is the paid one and who does most all of the ministry, guidance, and control. I see that as dangerous as a monarchy in politics. One person doesn't have all of the gifts, except Christ. And Christ determined to express himself through manifold gifts.

So I think churches do better when they tolerate a variety of separate, independent ministries, such as Bible Study fellowships or Recovery Groups, etc.

You really need to pray for God to guide you, it seems. I wouldn't expect anything you find to be perfect, because there ain't no such thing! ;) Perhaps you can just sort of find fellowship in a "temporary mode," not committing to anything until you settle down?

Good luck brother. My heart goes out to you. I've seen the effects of divorce in many of my friends and relatives.

Thank you. The Lord has guided me faithfully in my calling for about 26 years, and though He allowed my baptismal testimony to be tested by Satan, He has never failed me and has been working toward my restoration, even when I've been slack, or preoccupied with my situations.
If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13
The Lord preserves our testimony for His sake, not for ours.

 

[Netchaplain]

Yes, Eternal Life is "eternal" life. Once you have it, you have it. But it does require a complete forfeiture of our own natural choices for spiritual choices emanating from God in heaven. It requires Spiritual Rebirth.

Amen! Choosing to be right with God is required, and it's done via rebirth, i.e. saved. I can remember when I used to often here the phrase "born again Christian," which is redundant, because a Christian is one who has been reborn in Christ. Like saying a "tooth dentist."

Can the Christian backslide? Of course.

This is a good point Brother! I think defining the term backslide has generally been a bit hazy, so let's find a common understanding if we can. It can be temporary, in the sense of not remaining in this condition by returning to where you think you were, and if truly reborn will be returning, not to salvation but to the walk, manifesting salvation all along (Jer 3:14, 22). Or it can be permanent, never returning to where you think you were (apostatize), i.e. "backslider in heart" or "drawing back to perdition, manifesting one still unregenerate" (Pro 14:14; Heb 10:39).

We can all cave to temptation (would like more clarification of "cave to temptation"), and to some degree, we all do on occasion.

Agreed, but only once learning as a returning slider who has finally realized how to avoid backsliding. If it is repetitious and ongoing enough, there probably hasn't been a true rebirth yet, manifesting one probably hasn't never truly starting the Christian walk (still unregenerate).

In fact, we are inundated by a spirit that constantly tends towards the wrong direction

Ture, as we're learning, but there should be an eventual show of maturity enough to be sufficiently persistent in our walk; and the walk doses not effect our salvation but show where we are in our maturity in manifesting it. As I feel you may agree that every saved soul is regenerated in the same degree, and we are as saved now as we will be latter, concerning our redemption in Christ; it doesn't admit in variations.

something we can fight and overcome. Sin is in us, but we are able, by the power of God, to overcome the Sin Inclination and persevere in living basically righteous lives.

I like your use of "inclination," and the believer is always well more inclined to good than evil (which evil can't be avoided and probably needs clarification). Thankfully guilt in us is permanently overcome, and it's the walk that progresses, in that we are learning to manifest all that we already are in the Lord Jesus (2Pe 1:3).

God bless and God be blessed!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Amen! Choosing to be right with God is required, and it's done via rebirth, i.e. saved. I can remember when I used to often here the phrase "born again Christian," which is redundant, because a Christian is one who has been reborn in Christ. Like saying a "tooth dentist."

Love that! ;)

This is a good point Brother! I think defining the term backslide has generally been a bit hazy, so let's find a common understanding if we can. It can be temporary, in the sense of not remaining in this condition by returning to where you think you were, and if truly reborn will be returning, not to salvation but to the walk, manifesting salvation all along (Jer 3:14, 22). Or it can be permanent, never returning to where you think you were (apostatize), i.e. "backslider in heart" or "drawing back to perdition, manifesting one still unregenerate" (Pro 14:14; Heb 10:39).

Yes, there is temporary and permanent backsliding, but it can be confusing. I know, for example, those who've turned back from a Christian profession, never to return again. I don't believe they were ever Reborn.

But there are also those I know who've seemingly turned away from a Christian confession, and have never returned, even though I believe they were truly Born Again. I went to a friend like this, and there is a whole story behind it.

He was converted as a young adult to Christianity out of paganism, and was a leading light for others to become part of the group. But then one day a young lady he had led to the Lord resisted his romantic interest in her. And he was emotionally devastated, and quit Christianity.

Much later I went to visit him, and asked him about what happened. And he said that privately he still believes and respects Jesus as the Lord and Savior. But the woman he married is openly hostile to Christianity, and it's a threat to their marriage if he returns to the profession of Christianity.

And indeed, he has never returned. Will he be saved? Yes, I think he will emerge from the fire with little else than his initial confession of faith.

Agreed, but only once learning as a returning slider who has finally realized how to avoid backsliding. If it is repetitious and ongoing enough, there probably hasn't been a true rebirth yet, manifesting one probably hasn't never truly starting the Christian walk (still unregenerate).

When I say we all sin, I'm referring to 1 John 1, where John said that we all have sin and commit sins. It doesn't mean we backslide in the sense of turning back to paganism. We all have flawed attitudes that we have to fight every day, because the world is provocative, requiring us to "turn the other cheek."

I've always told my kids, "Avoid the Big Sins. It's hard to come back from those. Keep your sins down to the small things, which are nonetheless important to deal with." Even smaller sins like pride, anger, and envy can hurt ourselves and others, as well as God. The path of the just is a walk of constant vigilance and attention to details.

Ture, as we're learning, but there should be an eventual show of maturity enough to be sufficiently persistent in our walk; and the walk doses not effect our salvation but show where we are in our maturity in manifesting it. As I feel you may agree that every saved soul is regenerated in the same degree, and we are as saved now as we will be latter, concerning our redemption in Christ; it doesn't admit in variations.

Agreed.

I like your use of "inclination," and the believer is always well more inclined to good than evil (which evil can't be avoided and probably needs clarification). Thankfully guilt in us is permanently overcome, and it's the walk that progresses, in that we are learning to manifest all that we already are in the Lord Jesus (2Pe 1:3).

God bless and God be blessed!

The "Sin Inclination" is not new with me. It's a common Jewish expression of the same. Thanks. I like the way you phrase Salvation as without variation. We are either Born Again or we're not. We're either a genuine Christian or we're not!

 

[Netchaplain]

When I say we all sin, I'm referring to 1 John 1, where John said that we all have sin and commit sins. It doesn't mean we backslide in the sense of turning back to paganism.

Amen, how can one with a sin nature avoid sinning, same as, "Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned (Pro 6:27)? The difference is that the sins of the believer will progress in less severity and frequency, as we are continually being conformed into His "image" (2Co 3:18; Rom 8:29).

Concerning your friend, it makes me think of Mat 10:37, 38.