Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Dave L]

Your delusional, like in your bash Jews & Israel threads , you blatantly ignore the scriptures given to you and then turn around and say you haven't been given any.

Use scripture to prove your point, not opinion.

 

[Dave L]

Sure. You also proved martians exist.

You are in denial. And will continue adding to the book of Revelation unless you heed Jesus' words about the kingdom being spiritual.

 

[Copperhead]

Bad translations are just that...bad translations.

And you are the sole arbiter of what is a bad translation? By all means, have at it. Jerome wrote the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century. He grew up with Greek as a primary language. And now you come along 16 centuries later and claim to be more wise than Jerome regarding what is the best way to translate 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Likewise Tyndale, Beza, etc who contributed to the Geneva bible. And since the Church of England hated many of these guys and ran them out of the country (Queen Mary), then later King James decided to have a translation done that would be the "approved" or "authorized" translation of the scripture. The crown had already shown its bias against seeking scriptural truth.

So, I side with the translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as departure, as in physical departure not a doctrinal one, as per the Latin Vulgate, Wycliffe bible (1384), Beza Bible (1583), Tyndale Bible (1526), Coverdale Bible (1535), Cranmer bible (1539), Geneva bible (1599), etc.

the parallel between 2 thessalonians 2:3 and verses 7-8 is classic Pauline literary style that is repetition and expansion on the idea. In both, a physical departure is in view. So a rapture is a reasoned conclusion. And in both of those passages, it is before the man of sin / antichrist / false messiah is revealed. As Dr. Woods likes to say.... "game, set, match".

 

[Dave L]

And you are the sole arbiter of what is a bad translation? By all means, have at it. Jerome wrote the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century. He grew up with Greek as a primary language. And now you come along 16 centuries later and claim to be more wise than Jerome regarding what is the best way to translate 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Likewise Tyndale, Beza, etc who contributed to the Geneva bible. And since the Church of England hated many of these guys and ran them out of the country (Queen Mary), then later King James decided to have a translation done that would be the "approved" or "authoritarian" translation of the scripture. The crown had already shown its bias to seeking scriptural truth.

So, I side with the translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as departure, as in physical departure not a doctrinal one, as per the Latin Vulgate, Wycliffe bible (1384), Beza Bible (1583), Tyndale Bible (1526), Coverdale Bible (1535), Cranmer bible (1539), Geneva bible (1599), etc.

the parallel between 2 thessalonians 2:3 and verses 7-8 is classic Pauline literary style that is repetition and expansion on the idea. In both, a physical departure is in view. So a rapture is a reasoned conclusion. And in both of those passages, it is before the man of sin / antichrist / false messiah is revealed. As Dr. Woods likes to say.... "game, set, match".

Wuest stacks the deck with his dishonest bias for Dispensationalism.

 

[tzcho2]

Sure. You also proved martians exist.

LOL!

 

[Dave L]

LOL!

Provide direct scripture quotes, then laugh.

 

[tzcho2]

You are in denial. And will continue adding to the book of Revelation unless you heed Jesus' words about the kingdom being spiritual.

I thought you said CoreIssue was hawking videos of Christian apologists explaining biblical teachings of rapture WITH scriptures? and now you accuse him of passively being in denial? Where is he "adding" to Revelation?

 

[tzcho2]

Provide direct scripture quotes, then laugh.

Twilight zone

 

[Dave L]

Twilight zone

If you cannot provide direct quotes to support what you say, you are lying.

 

[Dave L]

I thought you said CoreIssue was hawking videos of Christian apologists explaining biblical teachings of rapture WITH scriptures? and now you accuse him of passively being in denial? Where is he "adding" to Revelation?

You both add to Revelation unless you have direct quotes from Jesus supporting a physical kingdom. All other uses of scripture are removed from their context.

 

[Copperhead]

I proved the kingdom is spiritual = Amillennialism = no physical kingdom.

No, you allegorized the scripture to extremes and violated the basic principles of hermeneutics to make it fit your world view. Be careful, one could be bordering on calling YHVH a liar.

 

[tzcho2]

If you cannot provide direct quotes to support what you say, you are lying.

You bear false witness & attempt to slander me calling me a liar oh I'm shocked.
And , LOL! even you misrepresent what the word "lying" means--what a surprise. You are a false teacher Dave, because you are rabidly trying to spread your beliefs & attack the doctrines that contradict you and Christians that disagree with your views. I have never seen you on any forum just commenting like other posters, but your modus operandi is to start your threads to attack evangelical Christian beliefs.

The fact that I think it's the Twilight zone because you yourself only give negative "proof" for the false teachings you peddle or i.e. by saying our proving with scripture hasn't been posted when you seem to have purposely overlooked about 4-5 videos people have posted with biblical explanations, & scriptural teachings on the Rapture, then you have amnesia when the scripture 1Thess 4 is given to you-- You stating that it doesn't account for scripture about the rapture ( because you just ignore it) and how many of us need to post 1thess to you at the same time anyway?
Besides the fact that this same debate about the Rapture has been in multiple threads.

John 14:1-3 "14 “believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
1Thess4 : 13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters,about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.
16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."
But some within Christendom prefer to attack or mock the brethren for believing these words instead. Funny I don't see the scripture for that directive, that some so called Christians are to mock others that believe in the rapture aka what 1THess 4 says is literal truth, but I do see scripture that says believers will be mocked for believing in His appearing.

 

[Dave L]

You bear false witness & attempt to slander me calling me a liar oh I'm shocked.
And , LOL! even you misrepresent what the word "lying" means--what a surprise. You are a false teacher Dave, because you are rabidly trying to spread your beliefs & attack the doctrines that contradict you and Christians that disagree with your views. I have never seen you on any forum just commenting like other posters, but your modus operandi is to start your threads to attack evangelical Christian beliefs.

The fact that I think it's the Twilight zone because you yourself only give negative "proof" for the false teachings you peddle or i.e. by saying our proving with scripture hasn't been posted when you seem to have purposely overlooked about 4-5 videos people have posted with biblical explanations, & scriptural teachings on the Rapture, then you have amnesia when the scripture 1Thess 4 is given to you-- You stating that it doesn't account for scripture about the rapture ( because you just ignore it) and how many of us need to post 1thess to you at the same time anyway?
Besides the fact that this same debate about the Rapture has been in multiple threads.

John 14:1-3 "14 “believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
1Thess4 : 13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters,about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.
16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."
But some within Christendom prefer to attack or mock the brethren for believing these words instead. Funny I don't see the scripture for that directive, that some so called Christians are to mock others that believe in the rapture aka what 1THess 4 says is literal truth, but I do see scripture that says believers will be mocked for believing in His appearing.

If you are telling the truth, confirm it with scripture. The scripture I provide says you are not telling the truth.

 

[Dave L]

No, you allegorized the scripture to extremes and violated the basic principles of hermeneutics to make it fit your world view. Be careful, one could be bordering on calling YHVH a liar.

I posted Jesus' own words without comment.

 

[tzcho2]

The scripture I provide says you are not telling the truth.

If you are telling the truth, confirm it with scripture.

Firstly , What scripture you provide?? Let's see it.
Secondly, your opinion of what constitutes "truth" is only your opinion for eg. that denies CHRIST will return physically and set up a physical millennial Kingdom on earth, for eg of one of your "opinions".
Thirdly , do us all a favor and get a dictionary Dave. Just because You disagree with a person doesn't mean they are lying. "Lying" is to speak an untruth deliberately to deceive or to make a deliberate false statement. It is not a disagreement nor is it when someone is mistaken either.
Here's some scripture from Revelation that speaks of Christ's physical millennial kingdom.
Rev 20:1-15
Satan bound
"1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Satan Freed, Doomed

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the bookof life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Keraz]

That God will pour out a Spirit of grace upon them and they will eventually embrace their Messiah (see Zechariah 12:10) and live in Him.

This outcome is not what the Bible tells us. It is a made up idea that supports the 'rapture' theory.
Zechariah 12:10 goes on to say how just a few families will mourn. And Zechariah 13:1-8 plainly prophesies how only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

I have pointed this truth out before, was to you? Why can't you believe it?

 

[Copperhead]

I posted Jesus' own words without comment.

Except for one teensie bit of a problem. My initial post on this thread quoted your initial post that started it. You never quoted Yeshua in that post. It was just a rant.

And in every subsequent post you have made to me, you haven't quoted Yeshua either.

You have gotten in so deep you can't keep track of what you have said. Might want to back up and take a breath before shooting off again.

 

[Keraz]

It seems there is more 'rapture to heaven' believers here that those who deny such a thing. This is how it is generally, but having a majority does NOT mean they are right. Have you heard of the 50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong, joke?

The real proof that a 'rapture' removal is wrong, is the many prophesies that tell us what God does intend for His people in the end times.
There is many scriptures that say how the Lord will first clear and cleanse all the Middle East on His Day of fiery wrath, then the call will go out to every faithful Christian to travel to and settle in all of the holy Land, where we will be the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had.
THAT is our destiny and our great privilege!

These prophesies are plainly stated, I put them all on my website. Believe the truth, it will be much better for you when things get difficult.

 

[Copperhead]

It is a made up idea that supports the 'rapture' theory.

Well, no it is not "made up". The Latin "Rapturo" from which we get our English "rapture" is the word used for the Greek "harpazo" in the Latin Vulgate which means the snatching or taking away. Rapture is definitely in the bible, and directly in wording not in a theory.

We can debate as to when it happens, but the rapture is there and certain. Some love to bury their head in a bucket and not see the rapture, but that doesn't make it go away.

 

[Copperhead]

It seems there is more 'rapture to heaven' believers here that those who deny such a thing. This is how it is generally, but having a majority does NOT mean they are right. Have you heard of the 50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong, joke?

The real proof that a 'rapture' removal is wrong, is the many prophesies that tell us what God does intend for His people in the end times.
There is many scriptures that say how the Lord will first clear and cleanse all the Middle East on His Day of fiery wrath, then the call will go out to every faithful Christian to travel to and settle in all of the holy Land, where we will be the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had.
THAT is our destiny and our great privilege!

These prophesies are plainly stated, I put them all on my website. Believe the truth, it will be much better for you when things get difficult.

It really would be a blessing if you actually did research instead of just putting stuff out there as fact.

The Majority of the organized church has not been "rapture to heaven" as you put it. In the history of the church especially since the 4th century, the majority opinion has been ammillenial or post trib. The vast majority of theology learning centers are ammillenial or post-trib.

The minority opinion has been a toss up between pre-trib and several other obscure outlooks.

And even still it amazes me how such a minority opinion can garner such angst and vitriol whenever it is brought up. Even when it isn't brought up. It must really cut deep on a lot of folks to make them get their blood pressure up.

And as I have stated elsewhere, the pre-trib is just about the only opinion that causes even secular writers and speakers to get their knickers in a wad. There is a lot of literature from New Ager / UFO / Spiritual channeler types that waste a lot of ink dismissing the pre-trib, but hardly a breath towards the other positions.

It still begs the question then, the pre-trib position is a false theory, doctrine of demons, causes many to led astray, etc, then why is Satan spending so much time trying to discredit it in secular circles? At the very least, explaining it away if not out right discrediting it. If one is in the opposition camp, it might be worth taking a pause and making sure that one is not actually taking up the cause of Satan as opposed to countering what they perceive as a false theory.

The biggest risk to actually being right is assuming that one is already right. Reevaluation of one's position is always a good thing to do occasionally. It is a battle, and a good soldier always reevaluates the battle conditions and movement of the enemy to position hisself in order to be effective, not a casualty, or at worse.... actually giving aid and comfort to the enemy.