Question For JW's

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Wrangler

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Lots of them. Which one would you like?
Any one verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.
 
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Jack

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Any one verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.
You're doing the JW twist. lol

Isaiah 40:3 (NKJV)
3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. Matthew 3:3 (NKJV)
3  For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD;"

Jesus is God!
 
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Wrangler

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You're doing the JW twist. lol

Isaiah 40:3 (NKJV)
3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. Matthew 3:3 (NKJV)
3  For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD;"

Jesus is God!
Still don't grasp agency huh?
 

Jack

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One who knows Thomas did not claim Jesus IS God. Note, his lack of a complete sentence. Who are you to read into Thomas' words?
The JW twist! "The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what Kingdom Hall says."
 

Keiw

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Jesus would have SEVERELY rebuked Thomas for making such a false, blasphemous statement! Peter said Jesus knows ALL THINGS. ONLY God knows all things. Should I believe you or Thomas and Peter?

Jesus only speaks what the Father told him to speak-John 5:30-- And since Jesus taught -the Father is the only true God-that is who you should believe. God told all to Listen to Jesus.
 

Keiw

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JW's? You mean Kingdom Hall and WatchTower?

The JW leaders made errors, mostly out of error filled trinity translations they used to use. Kingdom halls and magazines dont make errors, they are non living things. The writers made the errors, they as well corrected the errors, unlike trinity religions that live by catholicism translating errors over Jesus' truth. Those errors contradict Jesus. In reality since Jesus teaches the Father is the only true God, all teaching that God is a trinity are calling Jesus a liar.
 
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Jack

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Jesus only speaks what the Father told him to speak-John 5:30-- And since Jesus taught -the Father is the only true God-that is who you should believe. God told all to Listen to Jesus.
Total evasion of what I said!
 
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The Learner

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Have you read the NWT? It says you're wrong.
Oh from a source that used Grebber, a Spiritualist to justifly in the Watchtower NWT mistranslations?


"It comes as no surprise that one Johannes Greber, a former Catholic clergyman, has become a spiritualist and has published the book entitled “Communication with the Spirit World, Its laws and Its Purpose.” (1932, Macoy Publishing Company, New York) In its Foreword he makes the typical misstatement: “The most significant spiritualistic book is the Bible; for its principal contents hinge upon the messages of the beyond to those existing in the present.”
The Watchtower 1955 October 1 p. 603 par. 33 Part 3—What Do the Scriptures Say About “Survival After Death”?

Here, Watchtower fully exposes who Johannes Greber was.

10 Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of his translation of The New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: “I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty-eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God’s spirits. The day came, however, when I involuntarily took my first step toward such communication, and experienced things that shook me to the depths of my soul. . . . My experiences are related in a book that has appeared in both German and English and bears the title, Communication with the Spirit-World: Its Laws and Its Purpose.” (Page 15, ¶ 2, 3) In keeping with his Roman Catholic extraction Greber’s translation is bound with a gold-leaf cross on its stiff front cover. In the Foreword of his aforementioned book ex-priest Greber says: “The most significant spiritualistic book is the Bible.” Under this impression Greber endeavors to make his New Testament translation read very spiritualistic.
The Watchtower 1956 February 15 pp. 110-111 pars. 10-11 Triumphing over Wicked Spirit Forces

Again, another exposé on who Greber was.

5 But most controversial of all is the following reading of John 1:1, 2: “The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This Word was in the beginning with God.” This reading is found in The New Testament in An Improved Version, published in London, England, in 1808. Similar is the reading by a former Roman Catholic priest: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This was with God in the beginning. Everything came into being through the Word, and without it nothing created sprang into existence.” (John 1:1-3)* Alongside that reading with its much-debated expression “a god” may be placed the reading found in The Four Gospels—A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey, second edition of 1947, namely: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. When he was in the beginning with God all things were created through him; without him came no created thing into being.” (John 1:1-3) Note that what the Word is said to be is spelled without a capital initial letter, namely, “god.”
Footnote: The New Testament—A New Translation and Explanation Based on the Oldest Manuscripts, by Johannes Greber (a translation from German into English), edition of 1937, the front cover of this bound translation being stamped with a golden cross.
The Watchtower 1962 September 15 p. 554 par. 5 “The Word”—Who Is He? According to John

This is the first instance where Watchtower used Greber in their publications in anything other than a negative tone
 

The Learner

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Using Greber To Support Watchtower Teachings
Tombs Opened at Jesus Death
The translation by Johannes Greber (1937) of these verses reads as follows: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”
Aid to Bible Understanding 1971, p. 1134

The Word
A translation by a former Roman Catholic Priest, Johannes Greber, and (1937 edition) renders the second appearance of the word “god” in the sentence as “a god.”
Aid to Bible Understanding 1971, p. 1669

Clearly, the Watchtower Society have used another 2 references in Johannes Greber’s bible to support their doctrine.

Without wresting the Greek grammar, a translator can render Matthew 27:52, 53 in a way that suggests that a similar exposing of corpses resulted from the earthquake occurring at Jesus’ death. Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”—Compare the New World Translation.
The Watchtower 1975 October 15 p. 640 Questions From Readers

Again, another reference to Greber in support of their teachings. But the thing that disturbed me the most was that The Watchtower is inviting its readers to compare their rendering of these verses in the New World Translation with Greber’s translation that was aided by means of channeling “spirits.”)

Event Clarifies Bible
● The recent Guatemalan earthquake affected even some of those already dead. “Time” magazine reports that “several mourners who went to bury their dead in family plots found that the coffins of long-dead relatives had been uncovered by the quake.” Something similar occurred during an earthquake in the Jerusalem area at Jesus’ death. At that time, dead bodies were customarily placed in vaults or chambers cut from Palestine’s soft limestone rock, often in hillsides. A report in the Bible, as translated by Johannes Greber, says that when Jesus died, “the earth quaked, and the rocks were shattered. Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.” Hence, rather than a resurrection, as some Bible translations imply, there appears to have been merely an exposure of the dead to observers, as in Guatemala.—Matt. 27:51-53.
The Watchtower 1976 April 15 p. 231 Insight on the News

And yet another use of Johannes Greber’s bible in support of Watchtower teachings.

Questions From Readers
 

The Learner

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And yet another use of Johannes Greber’s bible in support of Watchtower teachings.

Questions From Readers
■ Why, in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?
This translation was used occasionally in support of renderings of Matthew 27:52, 53 and John 1:1, as given in the New World Translation and other authoritative Bible versions. But as indicated in a foreword to the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, this translator relied on “God’s Spirit World” to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages. It is stated: “His wife, a medium of God’s Spirit world was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God’s Messengers to Pastor Greber.” The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The scholarship that forms the basis for the rendering of the above-cited texts in the New World Translation is sound and for this reason does not depend at all on Greber’s translation for authority. Nothing is lost, therefore, by ceasing to use his New Testament.
– The Watchtower 1983 April 1 p. 31 Questions From Readers

Please read this reference again. It took me several times to fully grasp what is being said. The Watchtower has a knack for juggling their wording with semantics, thus weaseling their way out of a corner. But, upon further investigation, this is a corner they cannot get out from.

After reading this a few times, digesting every word, I see exactly what is happening. The Watchtower is giving the impression that they did not know about who Greber really was until 1980. In 1980, the Greber foundation printed a revised edition of Greber’s bible. In this forward, it was revealed that his spirit-medium wife helped him translate difficult passages. For a religion that preaches and teaches to touch nothing unclean, and to have nothing to do with spiritism, this was an eye-opening discovery.

For a religion that calls itself “the truth”, was this really the truth?
All one has to do is look at the evidence quoted.

In 1955, The Watchtower knew he was a spiritualist and wrote a book about communicating with the spirit world. This should have raised red flags all over the place: STAY AWAY FROM THIS PERSON!

In 1956, The Watchtower even quotes from the introduction of his bible translation, stating how he got involved in spiritism and that his translation was aimed to be a very spiritualistic read. There is no question that at the very least, The Watchtower knew what Greber was involved in, and how he intended his bible translation to become. The Watchtower may not have known about his wife, but at this point, it really is a moot point.

In 1962, beginning with a little footnote, The Watchtower begins to use Johannes Greber in support of their teachings. They knew who he was, but because they had a difficult time finding support for scriptures such as John 1:1, they had to find support in a former Catholic priest who used séances with the spirit world to translate his version of the bible. Let that sink in for a minute…

There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God.
– Deuteronomy 18:10-13 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures 2013 (bold text inserted for emphasis)

So again, I ask: Was Watchtower telling the whole truth in 1983?
 

Aunty Jane

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@The Learner ...let me get this straight......:smlhmm:
Your beef is with our rendering of John 1:1, which it is claimed to have been so translated as "a god" because of Greber's translation.
But if you check out the Greek rendering of John 1:1, it is clear that Greber was correct. All we needed to do was check out the Greek to see it clearly.

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos." (Mounce Interlinear)

Look closely.....that little word "ho" is clearly seen with regard to 'the' Word (ho logos) but is missing in the English translation when referring to Yahweh....and for one reason and one reason only...to promote the trinity. The second mention of "theos" is without the definite article which means that the Word was "a god" not "THE God" (Yahweh).

Almighty God is always distinguished by the definite article if other 'gods or god-like ones' are mentioned in the same verse.
"HO THEOS" is Yahweh in John 1:1 and he is mentioned only once. The Word was said to be with "ho theos" but the word was not "ho theos"....simply "theos"....correctly translated as "a god"...or a divinity....or a divinely authorized person.

So....this is a storm in a teacup, regardless of Greber's translation, the Greek itself cleared up the mistranslation of John 1:1.

The other point seems to be about the bodies of the "saints" being seen out of their tombs.....so what does the rest of the Bible tell us about whether this is a resurrection of those saints or not?

First, whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were. Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·geiʹro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; Matthew 17:7; Luke 1:69)
The upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores the incident at Matthew 27:52-53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34)
The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way many believe because, three days later, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” (Colossians 1:18) The "saints" were to be raised to spirit life in heaven with Jesus....not to wandering around after being thrown out of their graves by an earthquake. For such a momentous event, why was it never mentioned by any of the other Bible writers? That's easy, it wasn't such a momentous event, but the mere consequence of an earthquake.

Another storm in a teacup....:IDK:
 

Keiw

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Kingdom Hall is not God. Read the NT. Jesus is God and Hell fire is "everlasting".


Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering impossible to be literal. Blind guides that do not know God teach it as literal. God= Love, mercy, forgiveness--your God = sadist.
 

Jack

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Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering impossible to be literal. Blind guides that do not know God teach it as literal. God= Love, mercy, forgiveness--your God = sadist.
I'm sorry that you don't believe in "everlasting" life. It's the same Greek word as "everlasting" punishment.
 
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Pearl

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Acts 20:28
“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
John 10 1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.g 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.h 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice.i He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.j 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.k 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

Do those who call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses hear the voice of the Good Shepherd? Do they follow Him? or do they only hear and follow the voice of a ‘stranger’ called Charles Taze Russell.?