Preterism, What is it? Is it truth?

[Rocky Wiley]

AND? the temple had been destroyed before. as before just an end of that period, not not the world. and two you're a Johnny come lately because the Son of man had already came at Pentecost.

lets prove it out.
Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

well did the KINGDOM come before some standing there died? yes, on the Day of Pentecoast. because he, the Son of man came in Spirit, (who is Spirit in Glorification). so the destruction of the temple in AD 70 is just an end to the daily sacarfice of the Jews.

so the destruction of the temple is not the end of "THIS" world, no of this or that Generation, but only in that period of time.

for the coming of the Lord in apperance is yet to happen... do you understand of the the Lord "two Fold Return?"... guess not.

see, those standing there whom the Lord Jesus was speaking to didn't taste death before he came into his Kingdom/Glorification of the Spirit... the KOG. ...... BINGO. so your assessment has been reproved.

see, the KOG came on Pentecost to all the world... YIKES, listen, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

see, the OLD Temple had to be done away with because the NEW Temple is establish.



PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Your post is preterist!

 

[Renniks]

What He said is when you see these signs [and He had given a few] then know THIS generation [the generation which see those signs] will not pass away until all is complete.

That doesn't even make sense.
Not when these were some of the signs;
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Already happened in the same generation that he spoke the words.

 

[101G]

Your post is preterist!

GINOLJC, to all,
ERROR, maybe you didn't READ my POST CAREFULLY. I have the understanding, that his "Apperance", in a glorified body, which is yet to happen, negate your claim that what I posted was preterist. no, to the contrary, it destroyes preterism completely, full and half. understand, in the Lord's two fold return, he only MANIFESTED in his return on the day of Pentecost, (seven weeks after Passover, in Spirit. and his second "APPERANCE" or his parousia in flesh and bone no blood, is yet to happen. so nothing is complet or finish until his final parousia, (which I completely explain below), in which, only then, when, "EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM", per Rev 1:7, which again, has not yet happen. proof of that is, (well I haven't saw him yet, and I'm sure, you neither, and so far as of this writing, at this moment, i'm still naturally alive, and has not risen, if dead). so in real time, full preterism is fully dead. only the lie about preterism continue.

now if you think that the coming of the KINGDOM of GOD is the final, or the complete stage in our NATURAL existence, well our proof is in our "NATURAL DEATHS". when the Lord Jesus returns, and raise the dead, and changes us, in a twinkling of an eye, well that has not happen. nor do we now have glorified bodies according to, 1 Corinthians 15:38 "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."
now if this is the body that I have now which suppose to be a glorified one for ever?, then we all been short changed. but until we die there will be no glorious body unless quicken. so again that alone prove the error of preterism

so preterism is completly destroyed again by 1 Corinthians 15, why? for EVERY EYE has not seen him even those who pierced him, (meaning the DEAD, and now risen). so no, preterism is a lie of the devil.

and point #3. to prove preterism is a lie, Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
now if everything was done/completed in AD 70 then you're over a thousand years late already, according to 1 Corinthians 15:38.

so I suggest you read my post very carefully.

Going back to what I said before, "if you think that the coming of the KINGDOM of GOD is the final, or complete stage in our NATURAL existance", well you better read two more scriptures, because that lie want work either. see the KOG, (Kingdom of God), and the KOH, (the Kingdom of Heaven), are not the same, contrary to popular belief. understand the difference.... scripture, 2 Timothy 4:18 "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." examine that scripture, heavenly Kingdom? to come? if it was the KOG did not Paul already have the Spirit, for the KOG is the Holy Spirit in us, correct.... Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." so the KOG is in the Holy Ghost who is in us......... well don't you have the Holy Spirit already? so why was Paul saying, "will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom"

now, was not Paul in the KOG? and he in the Spirit? meaning having the Spirit, lets see, Colossians 1:12 "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:"
Colossians 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
hath? hath? yes, hath is a past tense desigination, meaning it has already happen, so in 2 Timothy 4:18 has he not have been translated in to the the KOG? yes, "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." well why preserve... unto, unto, unto, when he has already has? don't make sense do it.... unless there is something else to come and here it is, listen. " the description of the last judgment", when he comes in his "APPERANCE", and judge the sheep and the goats, listen, carefully. Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"
Matthew 25:32 "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"
Matthew 25:33 "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

ok, we know this is the last Judgment, now lets get to meat of what the Lord said, and watch for the revelation, first the "GOATS". Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

so what's prepared for them? ..... everlasting fire. now the

"sheep,", Matthew 25:34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
STOP, hold it, say WHAT? what did the Lord Jesus say? .... listen, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" inherit the kingdom? well now, didn't you and I have the KOG already in us ...... for ever, according to John 14:16. so by tale, what is this KINGDOM that we are to "inherit"... just a wild guess ... the Kingdom of Heaven... maybe?.... (smile), YIKES!.

see how your preterism beliefs just falls apart.

so no, I don't believe in preterism, or any of it's lies of deceptions.

Now I have given you scripture to back up what have been posted, so,

Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A large number of Christians do not study God's Word, they just take the word of the teacher. The only way one knows if the teacher is correct is to study for yourself.

I don't agree with most teachers, but that doesn't them bad, it just makes them wrong.

So if we do not agree with you we do not study the Bible?

wow

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Or perhaps those who believe we will experience the tribulation are too focused on their own time and miss how well these prophecies line up with events in the past.
Many generations face very challenging times. We aren't special in that regard.

They do?

only if we spiritualize them

there was not an abomination of desolation

the ruler did not rule the whole world

Their has never been such a great tribulation which has never been seen before or after which threatened all life on earth and would only be ended by the return of Jesus himself

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Not necessarily. While some things would apply to the churches of the first century other things would apply to churches until the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints.

Preterism is TOTAL NONSENSE since it ignores facts. Let's take just one example -- the Great Tribulation. The Lord made it perfectly clear that it would be totally unique event, such as has never been nor ever will be. And that would be followed by the shaking of the heavens and the earth, which would result is the disappearance of the heavenly bodies ("and the heavens departed as a scroll") and the total displacement of mountains and islands (as noted in the Olivet Discourse). And that has definitely not happened.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)

Just this one passage shows the absurdity of Preterism. But you will continue to defend that nonsense.

Your post is preterist!

The scripture says world, but we understand it is

So if we do not agree with you we do not study the Bible?

wow

A lot of Pastors are more interested in money than anything else. Ask your Pastor if they are given messages to preach by their leaders. This allows them to preach a message they did not have spend in study.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

AND? the temple had been destroyed before. as before just an end of that period, not not the world. and two you're a Johnny come lately because the Son of man had already came at Pentecost.

lets prove it out.
Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

well did the KINGDOM come before some standing there died? yes, on the Day of Pentecoast. because he, the Son of man came in Spirit, (who is Spirit in Glorification). so the destruction of the temple in AD 70 is just an end to the daily sacarfice of the Jews.

so the destruction of the temple is not the end of "THIS" world, no of this or that Generation, but only in that period of time.

for the coming of the Lord in apperance is yet to happen... do you understand of the the Lord "two Fold Return?"... guess not.

see, those standing there whom the Lord Jesus was speaking to didn't taste death before he came into his Kingdom/Glorification of the Spirit... the KOG. ...... BINGO. so your assessment has been reproved.

see, the KOG came on Pentecost to all the world... YIKES, listen, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

see, the OLD Temple had to be done away with because the NEW Temple is establish.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

World as used in translation is actually 'age' so the destruction of the temple marked the total end of the 'age of law'

 

[101G]

World as used in translation is actually 'age' so the destruction of the temple marked the total end of the 'age of law'

Ended sacrifice of the Law. for the Law is the righteous JUDGMENT, for those not in Christ Jesus

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think Preterism is wrong, but entered into the equation because so many were getting it wrong with an over-emphasis on Futurism. Futurism tends to interpret everything in the Bible in light of prophecy being fulfilled today. It is scarcely understood that a huge number of biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled.

A most important historically fulfilled prophecy is the 70th Week of Daniel, along with the Abomination of Desolation. This is made explicitly clear in Luke 21, and yet we have Futurists all over the place claiming it's insane to believe that the AoD was historically fulfilled, or that Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled in history.

And yet, the evidence is more than adequate for one to place his or her trust in these historically fulfilled prophecies. An over emphasis on Futurism goes against Jesus' warning not to get too excited over speculating about future prophecies. It is for God to set the times and the seasons. We are to rest in God's cause, and not be about our own zeal and our own cause. Zealotry and sensationalism leads to self-glorification, and not glorification of the Lord. We should let the Lord Himself fulfill prophecy, and not try to be seers for our age.

Where Preterism gets it wrong is the reverse of Futurism. It sees everything as historically fulfilled. That isn't true either. Even part of the Olivet Discourse remains future, such as the fulfillment of the Great Commission, the continuing persecution of believers, not just in Israel, but also in other countries, and the end of Jewish Punishment when their Diaspora comes to an end at the return of Christ.

As well, the book of Revelation doesn't just speak of the Roman Empire in the 1st Christian generation as the Antichrist. The Antichrist comes in 3.5 years at the end of the present age, as indicated in Dan 7 and in 2 Thes 2. Balance is the key to prophetic interpretation. Take things in context, and not try to create an overriding system, super-imposed on all prophecy.

Mind if I ask when those things took place? I have studied history and I can not find where the abomination of desolation took place. Let alone when anyone ever had the ability to see it

remember Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel ...

just asking

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A lot of Pastors are more interested in money than anything else. Ask your Pastor if they are given messages to preach by their leaders. This allows them to preach a message they did not have spend in study.

What does this have to do with my personal study? Are you claiming if I am a futurist I listened only to my pastor?
My friend I have studied this for years I have studied all views listen to pastors and teachers from all views and made
My belief based on what I see in scripture. My bible tells me to test all spirits not blindly follow them and that is what I do

again I ask. Since I reject your teaching is it because I do not study? Let me know so I determine how to react and not assume

 

[Billy Evmur]

If the abomination that causeth destruction happened in 70 ad, if the man of sin sat in the temple declaring himself to be God, if Jesus came in the clouds and destroyed the man of sin and the church went to meet Him in the clouds ...

.... who are we?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If the abomination that causeth destruction happened in 70 ad, if the man of sin sat in the temple declaring himself to be God, if Jesus came in the clouds and destroyed the man of sin and the church went to meet Him in the clouds ...

.... who are we?

I wonder why place an idol in the sanctuary they destroy it sort of defeats the purpose of defiling a temple

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mind if I ask when those things took place? I have studied history and I can not find where the abomination of desolation took place. Let alone when anyone ever had the ability to see it

remember Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel ...

just asking

Looks like we've covered the same territory. I've been through these various interpretations before, and have held several of them at different times. I never seemed to find the answer until I began to look at each of the views and accept what was right about each one.

The Early Church, much closer to the Apostle John in time and place, viewed the AoD as the Roman Army or as something related to what that Army did to Jerusalem. That's because Jesus plainly said, in Luke 21, that Jerusalem would be encompassed by an Army and destroyed, based on Dan 9, where we are told that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed by a certain people.

There have been varied interpretations of what the AoD is, and it seems some of the confusion comes from conflating one AoD with another AoD. Daniel, in his book, actually mentions two different AoDs, one belonging to Antiochus 4 in the 2nd century BC and the other belonging to the Army that would destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

The Romans were an "abomination" to the Jews because they desecrated the temple simply by their pagan presence in its vicinity. When they surrounded Jerusalem as an invading Army, they were the "abomination of desolation." That is, they were pagans set to desolate, or destroy, Jerusalem and the temple.

Since Antiochus 4 did something similar in his day, it is thought that Jesus was talking about something more related to what Antiochus did. Antiochus corrupted Jewish worship by killing the more orthodox Jews, forcing the Jewish People to disobey the Law of God, and by installing idol worship in the temple area.

But this is not what made the AoD a "desolation." It made it indeed an "abomination" incited by pagans. But the "desolation" had to do with Antiochus' murder of thousands of Jews, and with his destructive acts in and around Jerusalem. This is precisely what the Romans did in 70 AD. They forced the Jews to give up their worship, and destroyed both the people and the city.

 

[Renniks]

They do?

only if we spiritualize them

there was not an abomination of desolation

the ruler did not rule the whole world

Their has never been such a great tribulation which has never been seen before or after which threatened all life on earth and would only be ended by the return of Jesus himself

There was for the people Jesus was speaking to. And yes, there was an abomination of desolation.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.” (Luke 21:20-22 ESV ). Luke stated that people would know that Jerusalem’s desolation had come near, when they saw the city surrounded by armies. Did this generation ever see a day when the city was surrounded by armies? As of matter of fact, they did.

In A.D. 62 Vespasian invaded and took Judea 8. Seven years later, Rome surrounded the city of Jerusalem in an identical way as spoken of by Luke. They would overtake and burn the Jewish temple. As the sanctuary of the temple was burning, Roman legionnaires set up symbols of Rome in the temple and offered up sacrifices. The Jews would have viewed this action as the fulfillment of Daniel’s vision when the burnt offering ceased and the abomination of desolation was set up. Luke’s description of Jerusalem surrounded by armies, which would have been Roman armies – appears to affirm this theory of a Roman abomination. This event was reminiscent of what Antiochus Epiphanes did to profane the temple and altar more than two centuries before. When Rome overtook Jerusalem, it brought with it many abominations and desolation. This event fits perfectly within the generation time-frame that Jesus mentioned in his discourse.

It is clear from reading the text that the abomination of desolation cannot be something that occurs in the future for two reasons. First, Jesus clearly said that “this generation would not pass away until all these things take place” (Matt. 24:34 ). But most importantly, Jesus identifies the Abomination that causes Desolation as Roman armies that would surround Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and destroy the temple just as prophecied (Luke 21:20-21 ; Matt. 24:15-18

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There was for the people Jesus was speaking to. And yes, there was an abomination of desolation.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.” (Luke 21:20-22 ESV ). Luke stated that people would know that Jerusalem’s desolation had come near, when they saw the city surrounded by armies. Did this generation ever see a day when the city was surrounded by armies? As of matter of fact, they did.

this speaks of Jerusalem and its desolation

not defiling a holy place with an idol

two different events

In A.D. 62 Vespasian invaded and took Judea 8. Seven years later, Rome surrounded the city of Jerusalem in an identical way as spoken of by Luke. They would overtake and burn the Jewish temple. As the sanctuary of the temple was burning, Roman legionnaires set up symbols of Rome in the temple and offered up sacrifices. The Jews would have viewed this action as the fulfillment of Daniel’s vision when the burnt offering ceased and the abomination of desolation was set up. Luke’s description of Jerusalem surrounded by armies, which would have been Roman armies – appears to affirm this theory of a Roman abomination. This event was reminiscent of what Antiochus Epiphanes did to profane the temple and altar more than two centuries before. When Rome overtook Jerusalem, it brought with it many abominations and desolation. This event fits perfectly within the generation time-frame that Jesus mentioned in his discourse.

It is clear from reading the text that the abomination of desolation cannot be something that occurs in the future for two reasons. First, Jesus clearly said that “this generation would not pass away until all these things take place” (Matt. 24:34 ). But most importantly, Jesus identifies the Abomination that causes Desolation as Roman armies that would surround Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and destroy the temple just as prophecied (Luke 21:20-21 ; Matt. 24:15-18

A few facts. An abomination of desolation Is an idol that renders a holy place unclean. If you destroy the temple there is no more holy place

Daniel told the prince of the people who would come would destroy the city an sanctuary. What you have shared here today is the fulfillment of that prophecy

Daniel said the future prince who
Comes From these people will commit the abomination of desolation long after the city is destroyed

Jesus said immediately after the abomination would be a great tribulation such as never been seen before and after it would be so severe if he did not put an end to it no flesh would survive. He also said immediately after this tribulation we will see him in the clouds coming with his army

these events have not occurred yet. Again you are confusing two events and trying to make them 1

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Looks like we've covered the same territory. I've been through these various interpretations before, and have held several of them at different times. I never seemed to find the answer until I began to look at each of the views and accept what was right about each one.

The Early Church, much closer to the Apostle John in time and place, viewed the AoD as the Roman Army or as something related to what that Army did to Jerusalem. That's because Jesus plainly said, in Luke 21, that Jerusalem would be encompassed by an Army and destroyed, based on Dan 9, where we are told that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed by a certain people.

There have been varied interpretations of what the AoD is, and it seems some of the confusion comes from conflating one AoD with another AoD. Daniel, in his book, actually mentions two different AoDs, one belonging to Antiochus 4 in the 2nd century BC and the other belonging to the Army that would destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

The Romans were an "abomination" to the Jews because they desecrated the temple simply by their pagan presence in its vicinity. When they surrounded Jerusalem as an invading Army, they were the "abomination of desolation." That is, they were pagans set to desolate, or destroy, Jerusalem and the temple.

Since Antiochus 4 did something similar in his day, it is thought that Jesus was talking about something more related to what Antiochus did. Antiochus corrupted Jewish worship by killing the more orthodox Jews, forcing the Jewish People to disobey the Law of God, and by installing idol worship in the temple area.

But this is not what made the AoD a "desolation." It made it indeed an "abomination" incited by pagans. But the "desolation" had to do with Antiochus' murder of thousands of Jews, and with his destructive acts in and around Jerusalem. This is precisely what the Romans did in 70 AD. They forced the Jews to give up their worship, and destroyed both the people and the city.

AOD is a Hebrew term

any Hebrew would see it as that term

again, Jesus said we would see it. (The abomination) standing in the holy place (making it unclean or desolate). Hence the term

abomination is an idol or unclean thing in Hebrew, (it has lost its meaning to us in the English because we do not understand it)

again daniel made it clear, long after the messiah is killed, the people of the prince who will come destroys the temple and city making them desolate.
After this event, things happen, we can see that these things have occured since 70 ad, I believe Jesus even mentioned them, nation against nation kingdom against kingdom.

then there will come a time when a future price confirms some covenant for 7 years. Yet in the middle of that 7 year he will break his own covenant by placing an abomination which causes desolation in the holy place. Or the wing of the temple.

this is the event Jesus spoke of. We are told immediately after this, there will be great tribulation such has never has been or will after (WW1 and WW2 make 70 ad look like a picnic. So we can rule 70 ad out immediately, ) in which is so severe if Jesus did not put an end to it, all flesh (life) on earth will die (think of an extinction event) for this reason, Jesus will cut it short by returning.

yes, rome left the temple desolate by destroying it

but that is not what an abomination (unclean thing) which causes desolation is, no Jew would interpret that any other way in Jesus day,

 

[Randy Kluth]

AOD is a Hebrew term
any Hebrew would see it as that term
again, Jesus said we would see it.

Actually, I think Jesus was primarily saying the generation of the Apostles would see it--not all generations.

(The abomination) standing in the holy place (making it unclean or desolate). Hence the term
abomination is an idol or unclean thing in Hebrew, (it has lost its meaning to us in the English because we do not understand it)

Sorry, I clearly and easily see it. You just don't agree, apparently. It is a pagan object that threatens orthodox Jewish practices.

And you would have to understand this particular "abomination" in context. In context, Dan 9 depicts an army coming against Jerusalem and the temple. It is an "abomination" because it comes from a pagan, foreign leader. And it is a "desolation" because it will destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

It is quite clear that this is the context in Dan 9, and it is also quite clear that this is the context in Luke 21. At the end of 70 Weeks of years the Messiah would finally come, but would be cut off, because the sin of the Jewish People would increase. And then, final judgment would fall in the same generation in which Messiah is cut off. This is an AoD that took place *in Jesus' generation!* That's precisely what Jesus said!

again daniel made it clear, long after the messiah is killed, the people of the prince who will come destroys the temple and city making them desolate.

That is anything but clear, since the vast majority of the Church Fathers viewed the AoD as fulfilled in the time of Jesus' crucifixion! It seems it is only "clear" to you?

After this event, things happen, we can see that these things have occured since 70 ad, I believe Jesus even mentioned them, nation against nation kingdom against kingdom.

That happened before the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Roman battles, and rumors of an impending invasion, would provide Israel with adequate warning that divine judgment is coming upon them for their sins. These were birth pains of the Kingdom, which would not be realized in Salvation, but rather, in Judgment. It would not be the eschatological Kingdom. But it would nevertheless be a manifestation of what Christ came, the 1st time, to do.

He came both to save and to judge. He is patient in his judgment, but he still brings judgment in every generation. He waited an entire generation to bring judgment to Israel following his crucifixion!

then there will come a time when a future price confirms some covenant for 7 years. Yet in the middle of that 7 year he will break his own covenant by placing an abomination which causes desolation in the holy place. Or the wing of the temple.

It wasn't a future prince, whose people brought destruction to Jerusalem and to the temple, which is exactly what the prophecy foretold. It counted down approx. 490 years to arrive in the general vicinity of 70 AD--not the last days as in our day.

The prophecy never said the judgment against Israel would take place at the precise end of 490 years, but only after the cutting off of Christ, which implies that this would be an imminent judgment upon the generation that committed that despicable act.

this is the event Jesus spoke of. We are told immediately after this, there will be great tribulation such has never has been or will after (WW1 and WW2 make 70 ad look like a picnic. So we can rule 70 ad out immediately, ) in which is so severe if Jesus did not put an end to it, all flesh (life) on earth will die (think of an extinction event) for this reason, Jesus will cut it short by returning.

How can you compare one devastating judgment with another? They're all horrible? What can eclipse the horror of the Holocaust?

However, we are told this will be the greatest tribulation, or "punishment," that Israel has ever known. This means it will be more *long lasting* than any prior punishment in Israel's history--far greater than the 70 years that Jeremiah prophesied against Israel for their Babylonian Captivity.

This judgment only began in 70 AD, and continues until the end of the "times of the Gentiles." This reflects back on Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Dan 2, in which pagan kings resist the coming of God's Kingdom until final judgment falls. We know that will be when Christ returns. That's when Israel's punishment will end--at the return of Christ.

The Great Tribulation does not refer to the reign of Antichrist, though it includes that. Rather, it is the punishment that began with Israel and then extends to other nations. In the end, all nations, including Israel, will be judged, to make ready the Christianization of the earth. Perhaps not all nations will submit to being a Christian country. But they will all have to submit to the judgments of Christ on earth.

yes, rome left the temple desolate by destroying it

but that is not what an abomination (unclean thing) which causes desolation is, no Jew would interpret that any other way in Jesus day,

I believe the natural view of the AoD would be the Roman Judgment in 70 AD. That's how the Church Fathers saw it, and how many Christian scholars see it. The Jews who were Christians certainly saw it that way, as led by the apostles of Christ. That's how I believe they interpreted it.

All the Jews of Jesus' day were hoping for the destruction of the Romans, their oppressors. But Jesus warned them that instead of expecting national salvation, they should expect judgment for their rejection of the Messiah.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually, I think Jesus was primarily saying the generation of the Apostles would see it--not all generations.

that’s ok, but if it did not happen, it did not happen, and in this case it did not happen.
It’s like looking for something that never happened, then claiming it must have happened because well it must have,

evidence must be given .

Sorry, I clearly and easily see it. You just don't agree, apparently. It is a pagan object that threatens orthodox Jewish practices.

. I can’t see it because it is not there

in daniel another king committed an abomination of desolation, the abomination In This case was a pig which Antiochus epiphanies slew in the temple, rendering it unclean.
An abomination could make any temple unclean, not just Jewish, hence the term.

And you would have to understand this particular "abomination" in context. In context, Dan 9 depicts an army coming against Jerusalem and the temple. It is an "abomination" because it comes
from a pagan, foreign leader. And it is a "desolation" because it will destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

nothing in Daniel even suggests this, where are you coming up with this.

Daniel 9:26 (NKJV): And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

there is no abomination of desolation mentioned here, this was fulfilled in 70 Ad and we are told that this destruction will continue until the end of the war desolations are fulfilled. This is still ongoing today.


Daniel 9:27 (NKJV): Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

we notice a few things

1. There were no verses in the Bible the two passages I posted are two tether
2.they are seperated by a “then” in other words, this happens, then that happened

so at the end of this time period where war desolations are determined by God, a price who comes from the people,who destroyed the city in 70 Ad will confirm a 7 year covenant, in the middle of that 7 years he commits the abomination which causes desolation

in the Greek we have

siqqus - vile detestable thing, idol unclean object
Mesomen - one is left desolate, deserted lay waste

the reason it is left desolate is because of the unclean thing or I do, Not it’s destruction,

the Greek prety much has the same meaning.

so sorry, what your saying does not fit, in daniel or in matt

It is quite clear that this is the context in Dan 9, and it is also quite clear that this is the context in Luke 21. At the end of 70 Weeks of years the Messiah would finally come, but would be cut off, because the sin of the Jewish People would increase. And then, final judgment would fall in the same generation in which Messiah is cut off. This is an AoD that took place *in Jesus' generation!* That's precisely what Jesus said!

Again you are wrong, the messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week not the 70th week
Daniel 9:26 (NKJV): 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

The word after in Hebrew (ahar) means behind or immediately following, not 7 years later

That is anything but clear, since the vast majority of the Church Fathers viewed the AoD as fulfilled in the time of Jesus' crucifixion! It seems it is only "clear" to you?

That happened before the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Roman battles, and rumors of an impending invasion, would provide Israel with adequate warning that divine judgment is coming upon them for their sins. These were birth pains of the Kingdom, which would not be realized in Salvation, but rather, in Judgment. It would not be the eschatological Kingdom. But it would nevertheless be a manifestation of what Christ came, the 1st time, to do.

Of course they did but that was after the 69th week not the 70th many things happen before the 70th week starts, those things are still happening today

He came both to save and to judge. He is patient in his judgment, but he still brings judgment in every generation. He waited an entire generation to bring judgment to Israel following his crucifixion!

Isreal was being punished The Whole time CHrist walked the earth, not sure why you can’t see this

It wasn't a future prince, whose people brought destruction to Jerusalem and to the temple, which is exactly what the prophecy foretold. It counted down approx. 490 years to arrive in the general vicinity of 70 AD--not the last days as in our day.

The prophecy never said the judgment against Israel would take place at the precise end of 490 years, but only after the cutting off of Christ, which implies that this would be an imminent judgment upon the generation that committed that despicable act.

Yep it was not the future prince, it is the people of that prince who is to come, it’s right there in black and white.

How can you compare one devastating judgment with another? They're all horrible? What can eclipse the horror of the Holocaust?

However, we are told this will be the greatest tribulation, or "punishment," that Israel has ever known. This means it will be more *long lasting* than any prior punishment in Israel's history--far greater than the 70 years that Jeremiah prophesied against Israel for their Babylonian Captivity.

This judgment only began in 70 AD, and continues until the end of the "times of the Gentiles." This reflects back on Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Dan 2, in which pagan kings resist the coming of God's Kingdom until final judgment falls. We know that will be when Christ returns. That's when Israel's punishment will end--at the return of Christ.

The Great Tribulation does not refer to the reign of Antichrist, though it includes that. Rather, it is the punishment that began with Israel and then extends to other nations. In the end, all nations, including Israel, will be judged, to make ready the Christianization of the earth. Perhaps not all nations will submit to being a Christian country. But they will all have to submit to the judgments of Christ on earth.



I believe the natural view of the AoD would be the Roman Judgment in 70 AD. That's how the Church Fathers saw it, and how many Christian scholars see it. The Jews who were Christians certainly saw it that way, as led by the apostles of Christ. That's how I believe they interpreted it.

All the Jews of Jesus' day were hoping for the destruction of the Romans, their oppressors. But Jesus warned them that instead of expecting national salvation, they should expect judgment for their rejection of the Messiah.

You assume it means just Isreal, there is a passage in the OT which speaks of the same time and strength, it is the time of jacobs trouble but he (jacob) will be saved out of it

revelations tells us the beast will go after Isreal but Isreal will be protected by God, so he turns his wrath on her offspring (that’s us by the way)

Again, you are trying to take two events and make them one, this a faulty logic

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again you are wrong, the messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week not the 70th week
Daniel 9:26 (NKJV): 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

That's really what I meant. The 69th Week is also towards or at the end of the 70 Week period. If this is all you have, it's weak. I stand by everything I said. Christ was cut off *in the 70th Week," thus terminating the 70 Weeks period in a half Week. It doesn't have to be a full Week to be the 70th Week.

The Abomination of Desolation followed in that very generation, obviously a judgment from God against those who had cut off Christ. The AoD is clearly spelled out in Dan 9.27, and I'm not sure why you deny it's there?

The AoD here in Dan 9.27 is the passage in Daniel that Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse. It cannot, therefore, refer to Antiochus 4, since Jesus was talking about a future prophecy, to take place later in his own generation.

The AoD is therefore the Roman desolation of the temple in 70 AD. That is what "desolation" means. I think your use of Greek lacks validity.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's really what I meant. The 69th Week is also towards or at the end of the 70 Week period. If this is all you have, it's weak. I stand by everything I said. Christ was cut off *in the 70th Week," thus terminating the 70 Weeks period in a half Week. It doesn't have to be a full Week to be the 70th Week.

The Abomination of Desolation followed in that very generation, obviously a judgment from God against those who had cut off Christ. The AoD is clearly spelled out in Dan 9.27, and I'm not sure why you deny it's there?

The AoD here in Dan 9.27 is the passage in Daniel that Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse. It cannot, therefore, refer to Antiochus 4, since Jesus was talking about a future prophecy, to take place later in his own generation.

The AoD is therefore the Roman desolation of the temple in 70 AD. That is what "desolation" means. I think your use of Greek lacks validity.

Your can stand wherever

Christ was cut off immediately after the 69th week, in fact we can trace this time up u til the time he entered Jerusalem riding on the donkey, (fulfilling the messianic prophesy of how he will be introduced, and the 1st 69 weeks of daniel 9

the next even (the destruction of the city and sanctuary happened a few decades later, so you already have an issue,

then we are told of the period of war desolations. how many wars have been fought in Israel since then? Even today we see these continue

THEN we are told after that period comes to an end, the price of the people who is to come confirms some covenant for 1 week, there is your start of the 70th, in the middle of that week, he makes the holy place unclean by playing in idol there, committing then abomination which causes desolation of the holy place in the wing of the temple,

hen there will be tribulation.

the AOD is not the roman desolator, he was not destroyed by Christ,

there is so much I can not see in your interpretation I can not even begin to agree with you,