Premillennialism contradicts the scriptures which teach that Jesus will destroy all unbelievers and burn up the earth when He comes again

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Can any Premillennialist give a coherent interpretation of this passage to show how it can possibly support Premillennialism?

I've seen some Premills who deny that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is about what will happen at the second coming of Christ and at the same time they believe the following passage is about the second coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

How can the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night be a different event than the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? There is no basis for thinking that these two passages are not related to the same event.

So, what can you learn from these passages then? We know that Jesus is going to come as a thief in the night (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15), so it makes no sense to deny that these passages are about the day of His second coming. What does it say will happen when the day of the Lord arrives unexpected as a thief in the night? According to Paul, the arrival of the day of the Lord will be accompanied by "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". But, those of us who are not in spiritual darkness will not have sudden destruction unexpectedly come upon as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:4) because we will instead be changed to have immortal bodies and be caught up to meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17).

So, what will cause this "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"? According to Peter, it will be fire that comes down upon the earth. What else? No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". No mortal could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth. That it's talking about literal fire there can be confirmed by looking at 2 Peter 3:6-7 where Peter compares this future fiery event directly to what happened with the flood in Noah's day that destroyed the world. He indicated that the scope of this future event will be the same as that one except this time it will be by fire.

Other passages which teach that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns are these:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Compare this passage to 2 Peter 3:10-12 and note the similiarities. Both speak of Jesus coming unexpectedly (no one knows the day and hour), resulting in heaven and earth (as we know them) passing away. Just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.".

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here, we again see fire being associated with the return of Christ. He will "in flaming fire" take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Keeping in mind that believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies at this time, what mortals does this leave to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom? None. Believers will all have immortal bodies and unbelievers will all be killed.

We can again see fire being associated with Christ's second coming in Luke 17:26-30 where He again compares His coming to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, but also compared His coming to what happened to Sodom in Lot's day when fire came down and destroyed Sodom.

People wrongly think that the reference to Armageddon in Revelation 19 is referring to a literal place on earth, but then they somehow don't take the following passage literally in terms of who will be destroyed when Jesus returns.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Of those who will still be on the earth at this point (believers will not be as they will be caught up to Christ just before this) who is excepted from "all people, free and slave, great and small"? That wording shows that it's all-inclusive. No one is excepted. Literally all people left on the earth after the church is caught up to Christ on the day He returns will be destroyed. That's what this text indicates.

 

[Scott Downey]

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Can any Premillennialist give a coherent interpretation of this passage to show how it can possibly support Premillennialism?

I've seen some Premills who deny that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is about what will happen at the second coming of Christ and at the same time they believe the following passage is about the second coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

How can the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night be a different event than the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? There is no basis for thinking that these two passages are not related to the same event.

So, what can you learn from these passages then? We know that Jesus is going to come as a thief in the night (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15), so it makes no sense to deny that these passages are about the day of His second coming. What does it say will happen when the day of the Lord arrives unexpected as a thief in the night? According to Paul, the arrival of the day of the Lord will be accompanied by "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". But, those of us who are not in spiritual darkness will not have sudden destruction unexpectedly come upon as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:4) because we will instead be changed to have immortal bodies and be caught up to meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17).

So, what will cause this "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"? According to Peter, it will be fire that comes down upon the earth. What else? No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". No mortal could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth. That it's talking about literal fire there can be confirmed by looking at 2 Peter 3:6-7 where Peter compares this future fiery event directly to what happened with the flood in Noah's day that destroyed the world. He indicated that the scope of this future event will be the same as that one except this time it will be by fire.

Other passages which teach that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns are these:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Compare this passage to 2 Peter 3:10-12 and note the similiarities. Both speak of Jesus coming unexpectedly (no one knows the day and hour), resulting in heaven and earth (as we know them) passing away. Just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.".

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here, we again see fire being associated with the return of Christ. He will "in flaming fire" take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Keeping in mind that believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies at this time, what mortals does this leave to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom? None. Believers will all have immortal bodies and unbelievers will all be killed.

We can again see fire being associated with Christ's second coming in Luke 17:26-30 where He again compares His coming to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, but also compared His coming to what happened to Sodom in Lot's day when fire came down and destroyed Sodom.

People wrongly think that the reference to Armageddon in Revelation 19 is referring to a literal place on earth, but then they somehow don't take the following passage literally in terms of who will be destroyed when Jesus returns.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Of those who will still be on the earth at this point (believers will not be as they will be caught up to Christ just before this) who is excepted from "all people, free and slave, great and small"? That wording shows that it's all-inclusive. No one is excepted. Literally all people left on the earth after the church is caught up to Christ on the day He returns will be destroyed. That's what this text indicates.

Pre-mill is a diverse set of beliefs, not monolithic. They can believe all people not believing being destroyed at the second coming.
Perhaps they believe in a 3rd coming of Christ which destroys this world, or they dont believe the world is actually destroyed, like Noah's world still existed after the flood, it was simply changed-reworked.

Then to explain babies born and marriages they say only dead saints are resurrected at Christ's return and they do not married, but living saints they say are never resurrected as they are still living flesh and blood creatures at Christ's return, so such people marry and birth babies in the millennial kingdom.

Of course, that is false because we are all changed when Christ returns, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I would say they are very inconsistent in their interpreting scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

When they argue for a millennial reign with babies and marriages by living saints in a millennial kingdom of Christ on earth, they deliberately ignore a scripture right here in Philippians 3: 20-21

Our Citizenship in Heaven​

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

So yeah, when Christ returns, we shall ALL be changed to be like His glorious body, none will be as we were, flesh and blood and baby producers.

 

[Scott Downey]

And pre mills claim there will huge bazillions of babies born during the millennial reign by the saints of God who were never resurrected at the return of Christ.
And most of them babies born will be evil tares planted by the devil in God's field the world, and fight against Christ.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Personally, I think the pre mill doctrines are very negative and depressing to believe in.

 

[Truth7t7]

Personally, I think the pre mill doctrines are very negative and depressing to believe in.

Pre-Millennialism in many schools teach of a literal physical Jesus returning to earth and taking a throne in Jerusalem starting a literal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth?

This false teaching is paving the way for the future human man that will be revealed in Jerusalem as Messiah God returned, AKA (The Man Of Sin) (The Beast)

Sad part is reformed eschatology denies a future literal human man described above, it also denies the two witnesses as literal physical prophets returned, bringing literal plagues upon this literal world

 

[Zao is life]

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The perfect example of a logical fallacy: "2 Peter 3:13 does not support Premillennialism. Therefore it supports Amillennialism".

Psst: 2 Peter 3:13 supports neither Premilennialism, nor Amillennialism (and it does not support Postmilleniasm, either).

Note: Amillennial doctrine and theology contains a WEALTH of biblical scriptures that contradicts it. It's rich in contradictions - way more so than the contradictions contained in the idea that Christ will make all things new only after a thousand years following the return of Christ.

2 Peter 3:13 does not contradict the statements in Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 20:1-15 which tell us that the one who has been alive in His resurrected body [zao] since He rose from the dead, who Himself told us is alive to the Ages of the ages (Rev 1:18),

will begin to reign over the kingdoms of this world to the Ages of the ages when the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 11:15),

and that many of the resurrected, immortal human beings who were resurrected from the first death at the time of the sounding of the seventh trumpet (through Christ's resurrection),

will experience the second death after Satan has been released one last time after a thousand years of the Ages of the ages has passed (and they follow him),

and there will be no second sacrifice made for their sins, and no second resurrection from the second death.

THE FIRST THREE AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE

Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31) - Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31) - Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27)

Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17) - Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28) - The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 3:21; 20:4)

NO DEATH until Adam sinned - THE RESURRECTION: NO MORE DEATH until the second death.

--- 1,000 years ---

Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19) - Satan's deception of the Gog & Magog nations of the human race (Revelation 20:7-10).

Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24) - Second death. Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8).
Only the faithful remain.​

In-between Adam's death and the second death came the Resurrection of the dead:

I am the resurrection, and the life [zoe]: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live [zao] John 11:25

THE SERPENT:

"You shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4)

Note: God breathed (eternal) life [zoe] into Adam and Adam became a living [zao] soul. Yet he died.

God breathes (eternal) life [zoe] into the created human being who is alive in the body [zao] and is born of God and believes in Christ, and through Christ's resurrection, those who belong to Him will rise from the dead, and will be immortal.

But eternal life [zoe] is in Christ alone, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself, and who alone possesses the immortality that He has:

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

John 1:2 & 4
The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men.

AS FOR CREATED HUMAN BEINGS,

1 John 5:11-12
God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ].

It follows that:

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:4-6).

Adams death and the second death is proof of the fact that created human beings do not and never will possess the immortality they experience as a result of being given eternal life in the Word of God.

And Amillennial doctrine and theology contains a WEALTH of biblical scriptures that contradicts it. It's rich in contradictions - way more so than the contradictions contained in the idea that Christ will make all things new only after a thousand years following the return of Christ.

The OP in this thread is a perfect example of a logical fallacy: "2 Peter 3:13 does not support Premillennialism. Therefore it supports Amillennialism".

For those who might be inetrested you can find a lot more details on the many Amillennial contradictions of scripture here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The perfect example of a logical fallacy: "2 Peter 3:13 does not support Premillennialism. Therefore it supports Amillennialism".

That isn't what I said at all. Any other lies you'd like to tell?

Psst: 2 Peter 3:13 supports neither Premilennialism, nor Amillennialism (and it does not support Postmilleniasm, either).

Yes, it most certainly does. Peter clearly says we should be looking for new heavens and a new earth in fulfillment of Christ's second coming. The new heavens and new earth are ushered in after the thousand years. Premills say we should instead be looking for an earthly millennial kingdom in fulfillment of Christ's second coming which contradicts what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13.

Note: Amillennial doctrine and theology contains a WEALTH of biblical scriptures that contradicts it. It's rich in contradictions - way more so than the contradictions contained in the idea that Christ will make all things new only after a thousand years following the return of Christ.

Another lie that you can't back up. It's all you have.

2 Peter 3:13 does not contradict the statements in Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 20:1-15 which tell us that the one who has been alive in His resurrected body [zao] since He rose from the dead, who Himself told us is alive to the Ages of the ages (Rev 1:18),

will begin to reign over the kingdoms of this world to the Ages of the ages when the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 11:15),

LOL. Can you possibly be more vague? You think this is convincing? What are you even saying here? Do you look for the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming like Peter said we should or not?

and that many of the resurrected, immortal human beings who were resurrected from the first death at the time of the sounding of the seventh trumpet (through Christ's resurrection),

will experience the second death after Satan has been released one last time after a thousand years of the Ages of the ages has passed (and they follow him),

LOL! Why would people be resurrected only to then have to wait 1,000+ years to be judged? Total nonsense that scripture never teaches. If you look at Matthew 25:31-46 you can see that unbelievers will be judged when Christ comes with His angels, not 1,000+ years later.

and there will be no second sacrifice made for their sins, and no second resurrection from the second death.

THE FIRST THREE AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE

Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31) - Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31) - Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27)

Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17) - Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28) - The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 3:21; 20:4)

NO DEATH until Adam sinned - THE RESURRECTION: NO MORE DEATH until the second death.

--- 1,000 years ---

Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19) - Satan's deception of the Gog & Magog nations of the human race (Revelation 20:7-10).

Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24) - Second death. Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8).
Only the faithful remain.​

In-between Adam's death and the second death came the Resurrection of the dead:

I am the resurrection, and the life [zoe]: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live [zao] John 11:25

THE SERPENT:

"You shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4)

Note: God breathed (eternal) life [zoe] into Adam and Adam became a living [zao] soul. Yet he died.

God breathes (eternal) life [zoe] into the created human being who is alive in the body [zao] and is born of God and believes in Christ, and through Christ's resurrection, those who belong to Him will rise from the dead, and will be immortal.

But eternal life [zoe] is in Christ alone, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself, and who alone possesses the immortality that He has:

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

John 1:2 & 4
The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men.

AS FOR CREATED HUMAN BEINGS,

1 John 5:11-12
God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ].

It follows that:

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:4-6).

Adams death and the second death is proof of the fact that created human beings do not and never will possess the immortality they experience as a result of being given eternal life in the Word of God.

And Amillennial doctrine and theology contains a WEALTH of biblical scriptures that contradicts it. It's rich in contradictions - way more so than the contradictions contained in the idea that Christ will make all things new only after a thousand years following the return of Christ.

What a bunch of gibberish that only you can understand. None of this refutes Amillennialism whatsoever. Try again.

You noticeably did not even attempt to address any of the other scriptures I brought up in my OP. Why not?

The OP in this thread is a perfect example of a logical fallacy: "2 Peter 3:13 does not support Premillennialism. Therefore it supports Amillennialism".

This is a perfect example of terrible reading comprehension skills since I said no such thing. It supports Amillennialism because if all unbelievers are killed and all believers are changed to be immortal when Jesus comes then what mortals does that leave to populate an earthly millennial kingdom? None. The scripture doesn't support Amillennialism just because it doesn't support Premillennialism. Nowhere did I say or imply that it supports Amillennialism just because it doesn't support Premillennialism. I back up my claims with scripture, not with logical fallacies.

For those who might be inetrested you can find a lot more details on the many Amillennial contradictions of scripture here.

LOL. Yes, for anyone who's interested in reading even more of your nonsense they can go there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pre-mill is a diverse set of beliefs, not monolithic. They can believe all people not believing being destroyed at the second coming.
Perhaps they believe in a 3rd coming of Christ which destroys this world, or they dont believe the world is actually destroyed, like Noah's world still existed after the flood, it was simply changed-reworked.

If any of them believe that, then I'd like to see exactly how they interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Then to explain babies born and marriages they say only dead saints are resurrected at Christ's return and they do not married, but living saints they say are never resurrected as they are still living flesh and blood creatures at Christ's return, so such people marry and birth babies in the millennial kingdom.

Of course, that is false because we are all changed when Christ returns, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I would say they are very inconsistent in their interpreting scripture.

I would say that also.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not surprisingly, no Premills have even attempted to explain how they can reconcile the scriptures I posted with their doctrine other than one weak attempt to explain 2 Peter 3:13 away. How can they? The scriptures very clearly support Amillennialism and not Premillennialism.

 

[Zao is life]

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

The perfect example of a logical fallacy: "2 Peter 3:13 does not support Premillennialism. Therefore it supports Amillennialism".

Psst: 2 Peter 3:13 supports neither Premilennialism, nor Amillennialism (and it does not support Postmilleniasm, either).

That isn't what I said at all. Any other lies you'd like to tell?

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

Yes, it most certainly does. Peter clearly says we should be looking for new heavens and a new earth in fulfillment of Christ's second coming.

How, in 1,700 + years of warped Amillennial logic the above statement of Peter supports two thousand years of a thousand years, commencing two thousand years before Christ returns, only Amils will understand.

When someone clings to a logical fallacy such as yours, and cannot even see the absurdity of what he is saying then it becomes a lost cause to debate it with him.

It's a logical fallacy to assert that what Peter wrote proves Amillennialism just because a new heavens and new earth following immediately after the return of Christ (if Peter actually implied that it would follow immediately after the return of Christ) disproves Premillennialism.

Amillennialism itself has too many biblical facts disproving it (way too many), so how can disproving Premillennialism (and what Peter said is not disproving it - since Peter did not say when we can expect the new heavens and new earth he mentioned) "prove" Amillennialism as though there cannot possibly be any other alternative to what Revelation 20 is saying?

How long did Adam live before he died?
Did he die because the created human possessed the immortality that he obtained through the Spirit of life giving him eternal life so that he became a living soul?

Give us the place in the Bible that tells us that created humans have eternal life in themselves and I'll quote the scripture that states that Christ alone has eternal life in Himself because only God has eternal life in Himself.
​

Give us the place in the Bible that tells us that created humans, once resurrected, can never die a second death because they will possess the immortality they have obtained by the power of Christ's resurrection and by virtue of having been given eternal life in Christ who alone has eternal life in Himself,

and I'll give you the place where the Bible tells us that the resurrected Christ alone possesses (His) immortality, and alone has eternal life in Himself.

​

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

* Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

* The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

* Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world during this age, and Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Again, the reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

But Amillennialists have changed the meaning of a number of other scriptures (I haven't listed it all here) in order to attempt to change the meaning of the above scriptures regarding the binding of Satan, and then you put forward all the nonsense you come up with as biblical "proof" that Satan was bound in such a way as to have been unable to deceive the nations since Jesus ascended into heaven.

And you argue and argue and argue from such a ridiculous springboard.

And then you think that arguing that because Peter spoke of a a new heavens and new earth, he was implying that it will immediately follow the retrurn of Christ, and that all this somehow automatically supports Amillennialism "because it would disprove Premillennialism, had Peter implied it".

You can't even see the very glaring example of a logical fallacy in your OP ​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How, in 1,700 + years of warped Amillennial logic the above statement of Peter supports two thousand years of a thousand years, commencing two thousand years before Christ returns, only Amils will understand.

When someone clings to a logical fallacy such as yours, and cannot even see the absurdity of what he is saying then it becomes a lost cause to debate it with him.​

You are laughing like a fool about something that I didn't even say. I did not say the verse proves Amillennialism because it disproves Premillennialism. It proves Amillennialism and disproves Premillennialism at the same time because 2 Peter 3:10-13 does not allow for any mortals to be on the earth after Christ returns.

It's a logical fallacy to assert that what Peter wrote proves Amillennialism just because a new heavens and new earth following immediately after the return of Christ (if Peter actually implied that it would follow immediately after the return of Christ) disproves Premillennialism.

Amillennialism itself has too many biblical facts disproving it (way too many), so how can disproving Premillennialism (and what Peter said is not disproving it - since Peter did not say when we can expect the new heavens and new earth he mentioned) "prove" Amillennialism as though there cannot possibly be any other alternative to what Revelation 20 is saying?

How long did Adam live before he died?
Did he die because the created human possessed the immortality that he obtained through the Spirit of life giving him eternal life so that he became a living soul?

Give us the place in the Bible that tells us that created humans have eternal life in themselves and I'll quote the scripture that states that Christ alone has eternal life in Himself because only God has eternal life in Himself.
​

Give us the place in the Bible that tells us that created humans, once resurrected, can never die a second death because they will possess the immortality they have obtained by the power of Christ's resurrection and by virtue of having been given eternal life in Christ who alone has eternal life in Himself,

and I'll give you the place where the Bible tells us that the resurrected Christ alone possesses (His) immortality, and alone has eternal life in Himself.

​

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

* Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

* The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

* Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world during this age, and Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Again, the reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

But Amillennialists have changed the meaning of a number of other scriptures (I haven't listed it all here) in order to attempt to change the meaning of the above scriptures regarding the binding of Satan, and then you put forward all the nonsense you come up with as biblical "proof" that Satan was bound in such a way as to have been unable to deceive the nations since Jesus ascended into heaven.

And you argue and argue and argue from such a ridiculous springboard.

And then you think that arguing that because Peter spoke of a a new heavens and new earth, he was implying that it will immediately follow the retrurn of Christ, and that all this somehow automatically supports Amillennialism "because it would disprove Premillennialism, had Peter implied it".

You can't even see the very glaring example of a logical fallacy in your OP ​

Have you literally lost your mind? At least in the past, you would occasionally offer a coherent argument, but you seem to have lost that ability. What a bunch of gibberish. You only tell part of the story about Satan, too. Is he your god? No, right? Why do you act as if he is all powerful? All we need to do is merely resist him and he must flee from us.

Premills like you ignore what Satan was no longer able to do after Christ's death and resurrection. Before His death, Satan held the power of death, but Jesus took it away and set many free who had formerly been kept in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). Jesus indicated that He bound the strong man to spoil his goods and his house (Matthew 12:28-29). You don't seem to have any idea of what that means. If you did you would not likely be Premill.

In OT times, Paul indicated that the Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-13). Not so after that. A multitude of Gentiles have been saved in NT times and that required Satan's binding for that to happen. Your lack of spiritual discernment prevents you from seeing that because you foolishly think that the death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit has had no effect on Satan.

 

[Scott Downey]

Have you literally lost your mind? At least in the past, you would occasionally offer a coherent argument, but you seem to have lost that ability. What a bunch of gibberish. You only tell part of the story about Satan, too. Is he your god? No, right? Why do you act as if he is all powerful? All we need to do is merely resist him and he must flee from us.

Premills like you ignore what Satan was no longer able to do after Christ's death and resurrection. Before His death, Satan held the power of death, but Jesus took it away and set many free who had formerly been kept in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). Jesus indicated that He bound the strong man to spoil his good and his house (Matthew 12:28-29). You don't seem to have any idea of what that means. If you did you would not likely be Premill. In OT times, Paul indicated that the Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world. Not so after that. A multitude of Gentiles have been saved in NT times and that required Satan's binding for that to happen. Your lack of spiritual discernment prevents you from seeing that because you foolishly think that the death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit has had no effect on Satan.

Exactly, see what blocks people from being saved who are perishing

2 Cor 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Because God chose to shine His light in your heart, you He saved.

 

[Zao is life]

You are laughing like a fool about something that I didn't even say. I did not say the verse proves Amillennialism because it disproves Premillennialism. It proves Amillennialism and disproves Premillennialism at the same time because 2 Peter 3:10-13 does not allow for any mortals to be on the earth after Christ returns.


Have you literally lost your mind? At least in the past, you would occasionally offer a coherent argument, but you seem to have lost that ability. What a bunch of gibberish. You only tell part of the story about Satan, too. Is he your god? No, right? Why do you act as if he is all powerful? All we need to do is merely resist him and he must flee from us.

Premills like you ignore what Satan was no longer able to do after Christ's death and resurrection. Before His death, Satan held the power of death, but Jesus took it away and set many free who had formerly been kept in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15). Jesus indicated that He bound the strong man to spoil his goods and his house (Matthew 12:28-29). You don't seem to have any idea of what that means. If you did you would not likely be Premill.

In OT times, Paul indicated that the Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-13). Not so after that. A multitude of Gentiles have been saved in NT times and that required Satan's binding for that to happen. Your lack of spiritual discernment prevents you from seeing that because you foolishly think that the death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit has had no effect on Satan.

You're the only person whose gibberish is way better than mine or anyone else's, and you prove it again in the above post, because the destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years, as your Amill theory most certainly implies).

Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.

"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.

"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.

The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.

"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3

Again, The destruction of Satan's works will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years, as your Amill theory most certainly implies).

BINDING A STRONG MAN (Mark 3:22-27)

Your nonsensical Amil theory about this ignores what Revelation 20:3 says about the reason Satan will be bound. He will be bound in order "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled",

and your Amil theory regarding the binding of the strong man ignores the fact that Revelation 20:3 closes with the words "and after that he must be loosed a little season."

So according to your gibberish, after each time Christ or His apostles cast out demons, Satan was released again into the person who had been delivered from demon possession - but only for a little while.

I'm sure Mary of Magdala will correct you if you ever meet her one day.

The truth of the matter, stripped of Amils whose arguments are nonsensical, is that "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"):

Satan was not being bound for a thousand years and shut up in the abyss so that he was unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years every time Jesus or one of His apostles cast demons out of individuals, and the casting out of demons was taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection. You can't just change the reason Revelation 20:3 gives for Satan's binding to suit your unbiblical theories.

How Amils can believe such gibberish beggars belief.

In any case, to argue that the above passage proves that Satan was bound at Calvary is tantamount to asserting that Satan is as powerful as the Holy Spirit and can stop God's ability to work in the hearts of people.

The truth is that Satan has not been, and does not need to be 'bound' in order for God to work, or for the gospel of the Kingdom of Christ to be shared with the nations, and to take root and bear fruit. Satan's power to cause disruption in the spread of God's Kingdom in the world has always been limited to how much God will allow.

But your entire argument is ridiculous, like your argument about Satan's works regarding power over death being destroyed. His works were destroyed for ever and ever - not only for a thousand years, and he will not be given back that power over death "for a little season" any time soon, or ever.

Besides your arguments in the above post being ridiculous and nonsensical, Revelation 20:3 gives us the real (non Amil invented) reason why Satan will be bound:

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

A.* In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

B. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

C. The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

It's as easy as A, B, C and yet Amils don't understand it. You don't understand it because you don't believe scripture or what scripture says when you read it. So despite your many Amil fantasies, if we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

A. Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will

B. give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

C. The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7).

D. Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

E. Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

It's as easy as A, B, C, but still Amils don't get it. Why? Because Amils have to change the meaning of many parts of scripture and even the meaning of words in scripture in order to ensure that scripture complies with your nonsensical theories.

Amillennialism is like a cult the way it programs your minds only to see half of scripture half the time, for example:

Amillennialists don't see the words "of this present time [nyn] in the verses below:

"But of this present time [nyn] we do not yet see all things placed under Christ's feet, but (what we do see) is Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:8); and

"Of this present time [nyn] is my Kingdom not of this world [o kosmos]" (John 18:36).

Because Amillennialism (without you even realizing it) trains the minds of its adherents to only see half of scripture half the time, you completely fail to see the half that is telling us that even though all things have already been placed under Christ's feet, we do not yet see it.

So you will also fail to see why Revelation 11:15 is telling us that Christ's reign over the kingdoms of this world [o kosmos] will commence at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, and will continue from then on to the Ages of the Ages [the aeons of the aeons],

and until then, His Kingdom is IN this world because He reigns of this present time [nyn] IN the hearts and minds of those who believe in Him, but His Kingdom is not of this present time [nyn] OF this world.

You don't even realize how nonsensical and illogical and unbiblical all your arguments in support of Amil are.

All of which is proof that Satan's chief enemy is the church and hence it is his #1 object for his attempts to deceive. It's not surprising because Eve was the very first to believe the very first lie. A big part of the bride of Christ still believes the first lie.

Copy @Scott Downey

 

[WPM]

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Can any Premillennialist give a coherent interpretation of this passage to show how it can possibly support Premillennialism?

I've seen some Premills who deny that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is about what will happen at the second coming of Christ and at the same time they believe the following passage is about the second coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

How can the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night be a different event than the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? There is no basis for thinking that these two passages are not related to the same event.

So, what can you learn from these passages then? We know that Jesus is going to come as a thief in the night (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15), so it makes no sense to deny that these passages are about the day of His second coming. What does it say will happen when the day of the Lord arrives unexpected as a thief in the night? According to Paul, the arrival of the day of the Lord will be accompanied by "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". But, those of us who are not in spiritual darkness will not have sudden destruction unexpectedly come upon as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:4) because we will instead be changed to have immortal bodies and be caught up to meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17).

So, what will cause this "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"? According to Peter, it will be fire that comes down upon the earth. What else? No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". No mortal could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth. That it's talking about literal fire there can be confirmed by looking at 2 Peter 3:6-7 where Peter compares this future fiery event directly to what happened with the flood in Noah's day that destroyed the world. He indicated that the scope of this future event will be the same as that one except this time it will be by fire.

Other passages which teach that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns are these:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Compare this passage to 2 Peter 3:10-12 and note the similiarities. Both speak of Jesus coming unexpectedly (no one knows the day and hour), resulting in heaven and earth (as we know them) passing away. Just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.".

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here, we again see fire being associated with the return of Christ. He will "in flaming fire" take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Keeping in mind that believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies at this time, what mortals does this leave to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom? None. Believers will all have immortal bodies and unbelievers will all be killed.

We can again see fire being associated with Christ's second coming in Luke 17:26-30 where He again compares His coming to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, but also compared His coming to what happened to Sodom in Lot's day when fire came down and destroyed Sodom.

People wrongly think that the reference to Armageddon in Revelation 19 is referring to a literal place on earth, but then they somehow don't take the following passage literally in terms of who will be destroyed when Jesus returns.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Of those who will still be on the earth at this point (believers will not be as they will be caught up to Christ just before this) who is excepted from "all people, free and slave, great and small"? That wording shows that it's all-inclusive. No one is excepted. Literally all people left on the earth after the church is caught up to Christ on the day He returns will be destroyed. That's what this text indicates.

The reason they cannot take this literal is because it forbids Premil.

 

[Scott Downey]

Psalm 102:25-26
“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

Source: 7 Bible verses about Earth, Destruction Of

Like when changing clothes, you take off the old garment and throw it away, and you put on a new garment.
You never put on the old worn out one again as it is gone in the trash.

God relates to us these things in a way we can understand.

 

[WPM]

How, in 1,700 + years of warped Amillennial logic the above statement of Peter supports two thousand years of a thousand years, commencing two thousand years before Christ returns, only Amils will understand.

When someone clings to a logical fallacy such as yours, and cannot even see the absurdity of what he is saying then it becomes a lost cause to debate it with him.

It's a logical fallacy to assert that what Peter wrote proves Amillennialism just because a new heavens and new earth following immediately after the return of Christ (if Peter actually implied that it would follow immediately after the return of Christ) disproves Premillennialism.

Amillennialism itself has too many biblical facts disproving it (way too many), so how can disproving Premillennialism (and what Peter said is not disproving it - since Peter did not say when we can expect the new heavens and new earth he mentioned) "prove" Amillennialism as though there cannot possibly be any other alternative to what Revelation 20 is saying?

How long did Adam live before he died?
Did he die because the created human possessed the immortality that he obtained through the Spirit of life giving him eternal life so that he became a living soul?

Give us the place in the Bible that tells us that created humans have eternal life in themselves and I'll quote the scripture that states that Christ alone has eternal life in Himself because only God has eternal life in Himself.
​

Give us the place in the Bible that tells us that created humans, once resurrected, can never die a second death because they will possess the immortality they have obtained by the power of Christ's resurrection and by virtue of having been given eternal life in Christ who alone has eternal life in Himself,

and I'll give you the place where the Bible tells us that the resurrected Christ alone possesses (His) immortality, and alone has eternal life in Himself.

​

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

* Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

* The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

* Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world during this age, and Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Again, the reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

But Amillennialists have changed the meaning of a number of other scriptures (I haven't listed it all here) in order to attempt to change the meaning of the above scriptures regarding the binding of Satan, and then you put forward all the nonsense you come up with as biblical "proof" that Satan was bound in such a way as to have been unable to deceive the nations since Jesus ascended into heaven.

And you argue and argue and argue from such a ridiculous springboard.

And then you think that arguing that because Peter spoke of a a new heavens and new earth, he was implying that it will immediately follow the retrurn of Christ, and that all this somehow automatically supports Amillennialism "because it would disprove Premillennialism, had Peter implied it".

You can't even see the very glaring example of a logical fallacy in your OP ​

Reading your posts and trying to assess your evidence leads us to just your opinions. That is the grounds of your argument. You have nothing else.

It seems like you think if you state an opinion that makes it a fact. That is not the way it works. You do not seem to have any concept of Amil.

 

[WPM]

The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're the only person whose gibberish is way better than mine or anyone else's, and you prove it again in the above post, because the destruction of Satan's works (his power over death) will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years, as your Amill theory most certainly implies).

Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.

"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.

"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.

The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.

"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3

Again, The destruction of Satan's works will not last only for a thousand years and be "reversed" for a short period at the close of the thousand years (as though Satan's works were merely "bound" for a thousand years, as your Amill theory most certainly implies).

BINDING A STRONG MAN (Mark 3:22-27)

Your nonsensical Amil theory about this ignores what Revelation 20:3 says about the reason Satan will be bound. He will be bound in order "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled",

and your Amil theory regarding the binding of the strong man ignores the fact that Revelation 20:3 closes with the words "and after that he must be loosed a little season."

So according to your gibberish, after each time Christ or His apostles cast out demons, Satan was released again into the person who had been delivered from demon possession - but only for a little while.

I'm sure Mary of Magdala will correct you if you ever meet her one day.

The truth of the matter, stripped of Amils whose arguments are nonsensical, is that "the house" in Jesus' parable represents the demon-possessed man out of whom Jesus had cast out demons (not "the nations"):

Satan was not being bound for a thousand years and shut up in the abyss so that he was unable to deceive the nations for a thousand years every time Jesus or one of His apostles cast demons out of individuals, and the casting out of demons was taking place before and after Jesus' death and resurrection. You can't just change the reason Revelation 20:3 gives for Satan's binding to suit your unbiblical theories.

How Amils can believe such gibberish beggars belief.

In any case, to argue that the above passage proves that Satan was bound at Calvary is tantamount to asserting that Satan is as powerful as the Holy Spirit and can stop God's ability to work in the hearts of people.

The truth is that Satan has not been, and does not need to be 'bound' in order for God to work, or for the gospel of the Kingdom of Christ to be shared with the nations, and to take root and bear fruit. Satan's power to cause disruption in the spread of God's Kingdom in the world has always been limited to how much God will allow.

But your entire argument is ridiculous, like your argument about Satan's works regarding power over death being destroyed. His works were destroyed for ever and ever - not only for a thousand years, and he will not be given back that power over death "for a little season" any time soon, or ever.

Besides your arguments in the above post being ridiculous and nonsensical, Revelation 20:3 gives us the real (non Amil invented) reason why Satan will be bound:

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

A.* In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

B. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

C. The reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

It's as easy as A, B, C and yet Amils don't understand it. You don't understand it because you don't believe scripture or what scripture says when you read it. So despite your many Amil fantasies, if we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

A. Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world"; and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will

B. give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13).

C. The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" (John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7).

D. Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

E. Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

It's as easy as A, B, C, but still Amils don't get it. Why? Because Amils have to change the meaning of many parts of scripture and even the meaning of words in scripture in order to ensure that scripture complies with your nonsensical theories.

Amillennialism is like a cult the way it programs your minds only to see half of scripture half the time, for example:

Amillennialists don't see the words "of this present time [nyn] in the verses below:

"But of this present time [nyn] we do not yet see all things placed under Christ's feet, but (what we do see) is Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:8); and

"Of this present time [nyn] is my Kingdom not of this world [o kosmos]" (John 18:36).

Because Amillennialism (without you even realizing it) trains the minds of its adherents to only see half of scripture half the time, you completely fail to see the half that is telling us that even though all things have already been placed under Christ's feet, we do not yet see it.

So you will also fail to see why Revelation 11:15 is telling us that Christ's reign over the kingdoms of this world [o kosmos] will commence at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, and will continue from then on to the Ages of the Ages [the aeons of the aeons],

and until then, His Kingdom is IN this world because He reigns of this present time [nyn] IN the hearts and minds of those who believe in Him, but His Kingdom is not of this present time [nyn] OF this world.

You don't even realize how nonsensical and illogical and unbiblical all your arguments in support of Amil are.

All of which is proof that Satan's chief enemy is the church and hence it is his #1 object for his attempts to deceive. It's not surprising because Eve was the very first to believe the very first lie. A big part of the bride of Christ still believes the first lie.

Copy @Scott Downey

I don't want to deal with this nastiness anymore, so I'm done with you as it relates to this topic. Saying Amil is like a cult is just utterly false and way over the line and I have better things to do than deal with unhinged nonsense like that. It's one thing to call each other's comments gibberish and such, but acting as if my belief is like a cult? Nope. I'm not wasting any more time on this.

I see that you liked one of my posts regarding a different topic, so, I guess, despite how nasty you are in relation to this topic, you are still able to be objective about other topics that I post about. So, thanks for that. Anyway, let's just call a truce here in relation to this topic instead of continuing with this over the top nastiness. It's not worth it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The reason they cannot take this literal is because it forbids Premil.

Right. Despite the fact that there is nothing there at all which even hints at the text being anything but literal. In 2 Peter 3:6-7, Peter relates this future fiery event directly to the flood in Noah's day and indicates that this future fiery event that he describes in detail in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will be of the same scope (global) and the same type of destruction (physical) as the flood.

 

[Davy]

I have yet to see any Premillennialist give an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-13 that makes any sense whatsoever. Would any Premills here like to give it a shot? The passage clearly supports Amillennialism.

The 2 Peter 3 Scripture about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" is EASY!

The FIRST thing that MUST be done when READING the 2 Peter 3 Scripture is to RIGHTLY DIVIDE its TIMELINES. Spiritual Israelite obviously DOES NOT DO THIS.

In the below verse subject, Peter is pointing first to "the heavens and the earth, which are now" that is reserved unto fire. He then mentions the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men", however, that last phrase does not happen immediately on that same day of Christ's coming, because Peter instead points out how a 'day' to God is LIKE a literal "thousand years".

Why would Peter include that "thousand years" idea within that timing? It is because the actual time of God's Great White Throne Judgment of the "dead" only happens AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign! That is what is WRITTEN in Revelation 20. Peter obviously knew about that, but it was not actually fully revealed here, but only HINTED at by Peter...

2 Peter 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

What men's false Amill theories do is to SUBTRACT Peter's "thousand years" idea from this timeline and instead go straight to God's new heavens and a new earth timing to be on the same day which Lord Jesus returns.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yet Peter was determined that we are not to be "ignorant" of that future "thousand years" period of time that must occur first, prior to the coming of the new heavens and a new earth time. That is why Peter injects that "thousand years" timeline here in connection with God's longsuffering of not willing that any should perish at the future "lake of fire".

I'd almost bet yal didn't know Peter was actually pointing to Christ's future literal "thousand years" reign over the unsaved by that above 2 Peter 3:8-9 Scripture.


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In Revelation 16:15, Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief", warning His Church on that 6th Vial timing. On that day of His coming, man's works will be burned off the surface of this earth, and the heavenly dimension will be opened up to everyone, on earth. This present flesh world will be over, but not God's original creation of the earth. The Greek for that word "elements" above does not mean science's atomic weight chart of earthly material elements. It means an ordinal of world time.


11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

The Zechariah 14 Chapter reveals Christ's future return back to this earth where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. So we know Peter does not mean this earth is going to be literally turned into an asteroid belt floating among the stars. The is earth is forever (Psalms 104:5).

All... of the above 2 Peter 3 Scripture is about the timeline for the end of this PRESENT 2nd world earth age, NOT the future new heavens and a new earth.

2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

The above verse is about the future "new heavens and a new earth" that God has promised. But Peter does NOT say WHEN that will 3rd world earth age will come. Did he really need to, since there's so much written about it in The Old Testament prophets??

Can we see... some Old Testament examples of God's prophets pointing to the time right after Christ's future return about the unsaved? As long as the unsaved still exist, then God's future new heavens and a new earth will not yet occur. Remember that Biblical fact. The wicked will not see it. Yet these Scriptures after Christ has returned show the wicked are still present...

(Continued...)