Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!

[Hidden In Him]

LOL
Thanks @Enoch111 and @Hidden In Him for a good laf.
Er, laugh.

I'm glad to see that "humer" isn't dead. Or not as "dead" as the rapture is, anyway.

 

[Ac28]

There's at least one thing in your post I agree with.

So you agree with me that the fake go-to-Heaven rapture is Satan's favorite ploy to prevent you from going to the Highest Heaven, the place where Satan aspired to go but was never allowed to.

Why do you think that believing in that fake rapture would prevent a person from going to the Highest Heaven? What scripture dis you use to come to that conclusion?

 

[Helen]

Well he was new, LoL. When he was posting a week or so ago, he had less than 25 posts. Maybe he had a joint account and Forrest combined them or something. : Or maybe I just need to go find those glasses I never wear...

Life is full of mysteries.

Well maybe new on this Forum ...but both Willie and Rollo seem to know him well from many other forums ...for many years....
It sounds like they are familiar with his posts :)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well maybe new on this Forum ...but both Willie and Rollo seem to know him well from many other forums ...for many years....
It sounds like they are familiar with his posts :)

I know him from CF as well, but I could have sworn his avatar box said he was a newbie here. I still think somebody's pulling my leg!

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

Could you share your view regarding the purpose of Why the Saved would be left ON Earth during the Tribulation?

Thanks,
God Bless,
Taken

Perhaps because the Lord wants that none should perish? If/when the Church is still on earth during this time, I can see many lost and scared souls becoming saved through them. And, when I read Matthew 24:29-31 and see Jesus coming back on the clouds as He left "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." It seems He placed the timing at the end of the Trib. not the beginning.

 

[Nancy]

You weren't being "humerus"? I for one would not accuse you of being humerus.

Now, I must accuse YOU of being really hyper-literal

 

[Helen]

I know him from CF as well, but I could have sworn his avatar box said he was a newbie here. I still think somebody's pulling my leg!

You are right.
That happens when the poster has been dormant for two long.
He joined in 2009 and had 1200 posts, then didn't post from 2016 until Oct 2018 ...so then it would have said "new member" ( because of the two year gap. ) I have noticed that before.

Even if a person has 10,000 posts...but when they go dormant for a couple of years...it will say "New Member." :)

 

[Hidden In Him]

You are right.
That happens when the poster has been dormant for two long.
He joined in 2009 and had 1200 posts, then didn't post from 2016 until Oct 2018 ...so then it would have said "new member" ( because of the two year gap. ) I have noticed that before.

Even if a person has 10,000 posts...but when they go dormant for a couple of years...it will say "New Member." :)

Always nice to know when I'm not losing my mind, LoL.
Thanks for the heads up, sister. Where would we be without you. :)

 

[farouk]

But I think you know who @Rollo Tamasi is, and you know me too.
Not that there's anything wrong with it......

Maybe I do known him under another name...IDK

Your name is a good one... :)

 

[Taken]

Perhaps because the Lord wants that none should perish?

And human parents want that none of their children should perish...

Bottom line; IF the individual themselves doesn't want it...another wanting it FOR THEM, doesn't make it come to pass.

If/when the Church is still on earth during this time, I can see many lost and scared souls becoming saved through them.

What Church?
The man-made buildings with "upstanding clerics"?

The warning in Rev to THE Churches ..
Revelations:
1) The Church that:
Has forsaken its first love;
2) The Church that:
Would suffer persecution;
3) The Church that:
Is failing to Repent;
4) The Church that:
Has false prophets;
5) The Church that:
Has fallen asleep;
6) The Church that:
Has endured patiently;
7) The Church that:
Has lukewarm faith.

? Until THEY become IN FULL Belief and Committed Faithfullness to God and Christ....THEY who make up those Churches, will NOT receive ...
The Bright Morning Star...ie the salvation and seed of God.

Why a Warning to those Churches in Rev? and which MAN MADE Church with its congregation is NOT effected with one of those things?

And WHY after 2,000 years, MUST the Lord God continue to WAIT, for mankind to KEEP TRYING to encourage men to Come to Christ?

It is not Getting Better....It is getting worse....Men of the world have comforts, entertainment, wants, needs, fun, blah, blah, and are opening an ear to God, for what? They aren't.

WHY would HE step IN ?

You do know, ALL men who become forgiven, saved and born again....
Become GODS INHERITANCE, right?

Why would He sit by, as He has for 6,000 years allowing men to do His bidding.....and NOT HAVE a point in Time FOR HIM TO Claim His own Inheritance.....AFTER He has already Revealed...He absolutely WILL COME, at a time of His Choosing to TAKE what IS HIS? And WILL pour out HIS OWN indignation upon ALL who rejected Him?

God Knows ALL things, and He is not going to BE ON THE EARTH during the Tribulation.....WHY WOULD HIS OWN CHURCH be on Earth....convincing men....that God already KNOWS their choices?

When Jesus' Church's WORK on Earth is DONE, it is DONE. They are lifted up above the Earth.

Next to contend with ON EARTH is those who Believe IN GOD, but not Christ Jesus. That is the Jews!

Do you think the Gentile Churches, and the Gentile congregations are LEFT Behind to CONVINCE Jews? Why?
Because they have been successful in such an effort in the last 2,000 years?

God has HIS OWN Plan to minister to the Jews DURING the First part of the Tribulation....And it is EFFECTED TO JEWS, BY JEWS....not Gentiles, in Gentile Churches.

And the very LAST WARNING DURING the Tribulation comes from the Lords Angel, for ANY left on earth, who have not YET been Made/sealed unto the beast in control of the earth.

And thereafter, those subject to damnation shall be left and subject to Gods Great Wrath and Destruction.
(Except a small portion of mortals, neither sealed to satan or God).

Not sure how all PEOPLE divide what they accept from what they DO NOT accept....But Scripture reveals God Separates what He Accepts from what He does not Accept...
By LIFTING UP ABOVE the Earth, what He Accepts....and
Leaving ON Earth, what He DOES NOT Accept...

And thereafter, HE Removes FROM UPON the Earth what He does NOT Accept, restores the Earth, and Returns UPON the Earth those that are Sealed unto Him.
(And the few mortals, not sealed unto the Beast).

Now GO to Rev 1:7, read what it says...

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

WHY will the Forgiven, Saved and Born Again....BE ON the EARTH....looking UP SEEING Jesus in the Clouds....

AND "WHALING" ?

Do you know Whaling means a CRY of:
Pain, Grief, Anger?

And, when I read Matthew 24:29-31 and see Jesus coming back on the clouds as He left "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." It seems He placed the timing at the end of the Trib. not the beginning.

Revelations begins with a recap, the Word of God, coming from God, to Jesus, to His Servants, to People.

Then a brief, of multiple things will happen in heaven and on earth affecting particular people and spirits.

Then a warning concerning the behavior of the Churches, then and today.

Then the Beginning of the Tribulation by the revealing (opening of the First SEAL) of Who is given power upon the earth, and what they shall do with their given power.

Then toward the opening of the 5th and the 6th seals, regarding those who have rejected Jesus and then accepting both God and Jesus.

Then progression toward the 7th seal, flowing over into the seven trumpets, progressing to the Last sounding Trumpet, of the angels warning....to Convert.

Progressing toward the First Bowl through the seventh bowl of Gods Indignation poured out upon the earth and all that are left on the earth WITH the Mark of the Beast.

Men are all naturally born in sin...and have a time period to learn about Him, choose to believe in Him and Christ, choose to Commit them or NOT.

God also has a time period to Claim, those that Believe...those that Commit...and deal with those that Reject.

OT men had a time period to Commit....NT men had a time period to Commit...
Tribulation is a time period to Commit...
And 1,000 years will be a time period to Commit.

You do not live (in your bodily flesh) in all of those time periods...thus they do all not apply to you.

I have already IN my own FLesh, during my own time period afforded me...Given my Life to thee Christ Lord God, for Him to prepare me...To be Lifted UP...while HE deals with what is Left ON EARTH....as THEY are "WAILING" in pain, grief, and anger WHEN THEY SEE HIM...<--- THAT is NOT the reaction I shall have when I am lifted UP to MEET Him IN THE CLOUDS.

It is much more than simply reading the knowledge in Scripture...or simply believing what another tells you...

It is Gods desire a man UNDERSTAND what the knowledge Means.

No man can convince me OTHERWISE, that the Lord prepared me.....to be LEFT ON EARTH, when He is SEEN in the Clouds...so that I would BE ON EARTH, LOOKING UP AT HIM....whaling in pain, grief and anger.

I can not Change what YOU believe or YOU Understand.

I can merely say, I disagree and know WHY I disagree.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Nancy]

And human parents want that none of their children should perish...

Bottom line; IF the individual themselves doesn't want it...another wanting it FOR THEM, doesn't make it come to pass.



What Church?
The man-made buildings with "upstanding clerics"?

The warning in Rev to THE Churches ..
Revelations:
1) The Church that:
Has forsaken its first love;
2) The Church that:
Would suffer persecution;
3) The Church that:
Is failing to Repent;
4) The Church that:
Has false prophets;
5) The Church that:
Has fallen asleep;
6) The Church that:
Has endured patiently;
7) The Church that:
Has lukewarm faith.

? Until THEY become IN FULL Belief and Committed Faithfullness to God and Christ....THEY who make up those Churches, will NOT receive ...
The Bright Morning Star...ie the salvation and seed of God.

Why a Warning to those Churches in Rev? and which MAN MADE Church with its congregation is NOT effected with one of those things?

And WHY after 2,000 years, MUST the Lord God continue to WAIT, for mankind to KEEP TRYING to encourage men to Come to Christ?

It is not Getting Better....It is getting worse....Men of the world have comforts, entertainment, wants, needs, fun, blah, blah, and are opening an ear to God, for what? They aren't.

WHY would HE step IN ?

You do know, ALL men who become forgiven, saved and born again....
Become GODS INHERITANCE, right?

Why would He sit by, as He has for 6,000 years allowing men to do His bidding.....and NOT HAVE a point in Time FOR HIM TO Claim His own Inheritance.....AFTER He has already Revealed...He absolutely WILL COME, at a time of His Choosing to TAKE what IS HIS? And WILL pour out HIS OWN indignation upon ALL who rejected Him?

God Knows ALL things, and He is not going to BE ON THE EARTH during the Tribulation.....WHY WOULD HIS OWN CHURCH be on Earth....convincing men....that God already KNOWS their choices?

When Jesus' Church's WORK on Earth is DONE, it is DONE. They are lifted up above the Earth.

Next to contend with ON EARTH is those who Believe IN GOD, but not Christ Jesus. That is the Jews!

Do you think the Gentile Churches, and the Gentile congregations are LEFT Behind to CONVINCE Jews? Why?
Because they have been successful in such an effort in the last 2,000 years?

God has HIS OWN Plan to minister to the Jews DURING the First part of the Tribulation....And it is EFFECTED TO JEWS, BY JEWS....not Gentiles, in Gentile Churches.

And the very LAST WARNING DURING the Tribulation comes from the Lords Angel, for ANY left on earth, who have not YET been Made/sealed unto the beast in control of the earth.

And thereafter, those subject to damnation shall be left and subject to Gods Great Wrath and Destruction.
(Except a small portion of mortals, neither sealed to satan or God).

Not sure how all PEOPLE divide what they accept from what they DO NOT accept....But Scripture reveals God Separates what He Accepts from what He does not Accept...
By LIFTING UP ABOVE the Earth, what He Accepts....and
Leaving ON Earth, what He DOES NOT Accept...

And thereafter, HE Removes FROM UPON the Earth what He does NOT Accept, restores the Earth, and Returns UPON the Earth those that are Sealed unto Him.
(And the few mortals, not sealed unto the Beast).

Now GO to Rev 1:7, read what it says...

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

WHY will the Forgiven, Saved and Born Again....BE ON the EARTH....looking UP SEEING Jesus in the Clouds....

AND "WHALING" ?

Do you know Whaling means a CRY of:
Pain, Grief, Anger?



Revelations begins with a recap, the Word of God, coming from God, to Jesus, to His Servants, to People.

Then a brief, of multiple things will happen in heaven and on earth affecting particular people and spirits.

Then a warning concerning the behavior of the Churches, then and today.

Then the Beginning of the Tribulation by the revealing (opening of the First SEAL) of Who is given power upon the earth, and what they shall do with their given power.

Then toward the opening of the 5th and the 6th seals, regarding those who have rejected Jesus and then accepting both God and Jesus.

Then progression toward the 7th seal, flowing over into the seven trumpets, progressing to the Last sounding Trumpet, of the angels warning....to Convert.

Progressing toward the First Bowl through the seventh bowl of Gods Indignation poured out upon the earth and all that are left on the earth WITH the Mark of the Beast.

Men are all naturally born in sin...and have a time period to learn about Him, choose to believe in Him and Christ, choose to Commit them or NOT.

God also has a time period to Claim, those that Believe...those that Commit...and deal with those that Reject.

OT men had a time period to Commit....NT men had a time period to Commit...
Tribulation is a time period to Commit...
And 1,000 years will be a time period to Commit.

You do not live (in your bodily flesh) in all of those time periods...thus they do all not apply to you.

I have already IN my own FLesh, during my own time period afforded me...Given my Life to thee Christ Lord God, for Him to prepare me...To be Lifted UP...while HE deals with what is Left ON EARTH....as THEY are "WAILING" in pain, grief, and anger WHEN THEY SEE HIM...<--- THAT is NOT the reaction I shall have when I am lifted UP to MEET Him IN THE CLOUDS.

It is much more than simply reading the knowledge in Scripture...or simply believing what another tells you...

It is Gods desire a man UNDERSTAND what the knowledge Means.

No man can convince me OTHERWISE, that the Lord prepared me.....to be LEFT ON EARTH, when He is SEEN in the Clouds...so that I would BE ON EARTH, LOOKING UP AT HIM....whaling in pain, grief and anger.

I can not Change what YOU believe or YOU Understand.

I can merely say, I disagree and know WHY I disagree.

Glory to God,
Taken

We are always allowed to disagree :)

 

[Taken]

We are always allowed to disagree :)

Sure. And IMO we should know WHY we believe what we believe.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Helen]

We are always allowed to disagree :)

Haha!! One would think so Nancy...
The thing is, so many on this Site do not seem to believe that!!
...neither do many allow another person to have a different view of what the scripture is saying...they are so SURE that the way they see it and have been taught to believe, is the only allowable view of it.
Why?
Because they believe that their vision is perfect.
I personally believe what I read in 1 Corinthians 13 -
10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part...."

It seems that many do not believe that...they believe they have "perfect" understanding!!

Stay as sweet as you are...Nancy. Hope all is going well with Elaine.
You are not forgotten. :)

....Helen

 

[CoreIssue]

Haha!! One would think so Nancy...
The thing is, so many on this Site do not seem to believe that!!
...or do they allow another person to have a different view of what the scripture is saying...they are so SURE that the way they see it and have been taught to believe, is the only allowable view of it.
Why?
Because they believe that their vision is perfect.
I personally believe what I read in 1 Corinthians 13 -
10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part...."

It seems that many do not believe that...they believe they have "perfect" understanding!!

Stay as sweet as you are...Nancy. Hope all is going well with Elaine.
You are not forgotten. :)

....Helen

Perfect understanding by a human being? Dreaming or self delusion.

 

[Nancy]

Haha!! One would think so Nancy...
The thing is, so many on this Site do not seem to believe that!!
...neither do many allow another person to have a different view of what the scripture is saying...they are so SURE that the way they see it and have been taught to believe, is the only allowable view of it.
Why?
Because they believe that their vision is perfect.
I personally believe what I read in 1 Corinthians 13 -
10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part...."

It seems that many do not believe that...they believe they have "perfect" understanding!!

Stay as sweet as you are...Nancy. Hope all is going well with Elaine.
You are not forgotten. :)

....Helen

Oh I love you Helen, so sweet! And totally agree with the right on verses you quoted. It all comes down to agape love ♥ There are so, so many no-it-alls in the Body...and as they say "nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care ♥
It's been moment by moment with Elaine but, coming along with getting her glucose back to where it should be much- more to do medically for her yet, Neurologist, Urologist, Gastro... Tuesday at 5 PM is her arraignment...trusting God! Thank you for remembering Elaine :)

 

[farouk]

Haha!! One would think so Nancy...
The thing is, so many on this Site do not seem to believe that!!
...neither do many allow another person to have a different view of what the scripture is saying...they are so SURE that the way they see it and have been taught to believe, is the only allowable view of it.
Why?
Because they believe that their vision is perfect.
I personally believe what I read in 1 Corinthians 13 -
10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part...."

It seems that many do not believe that...they believe they have "perfect" understanding!!

Stay as sweet as you are...Nancy. Hope all is going well with Elaine.
You are not forgotten. :)

....Helen

The point is that the perfection - in the sense of completeness - is in Scripture rather than in my understanding of it.

 

[Vexatious]

And WHY after 2,000 years, MUST the Lord God continue to WAIT, for mankind to KEEP TRYING to encourage men to Come to Christ?

It is not Getting Better....It is getting worse....

Pretrib liars teach that God's church has failed, so God needs to rescue, rapture, the church and move to plan C. However, the world is getting better and a more people than ever before claim to be Christian. Nearly the only place where Christianity is in decline is where lying pretribbers have the most influence with their toxic teachings. When pretribbers are put under Christ's feet will the Western church return to growth.

Next to contend with ON EARTH is those who Believe IN GOD, but not Christ Jesus. That is the Jews!

You're lying, saying Jews believe in God. Most Jews don't claim belief in God. No Jew includes belief in God as required to be a Jew. And, Jesus told the Jews that their rejection of him is rejection of God, because he's from God. Being a Jew just means being a follower of the Antichrist principles of the Talmud.

God has HIS OWN Plan to minister to the Jews DURING the First part of the Tribulation....And it is EFFECTED TO JEWS, BY JEWS....not Gentiles, in Gentile Churches.

You're lying saying God will minister to the Jews during the tribulation. There's nothing in the Bible about God ministering to the Jews in the tribulation. On the contrary, the tribulation is nothing but God destroying the Jews, and Christians should get out of the way of God's wrath. And, Christians did.

Now GO to Rev 1:7, read what it says...

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

"Cometh with the clouds" is an OT-established figure of speech for judgement. It's not a figure of speech for "I'm going to save those who pieced Jesus, 2000 years after they died." Hence the wailing and the lamentful "even so". And, hence all the apocalyptic material of the book of Revelation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Pretrib liars teach that God's church has failed, so God needs to rescue, rapture, the church and move to plan C. However, the world is getting better and a more people than ever before claim to be Christian. Nearly the only place where Christianity is in decline is where lying pretribbers have the most influence with their toxic teachings. When pretribbers are put under Christ's feet will the Western church return to growth.



You're lying, saying Jews believe in God. Most Jews don't claim belief in God. No Jew includes belief in God as required to be a Jew. And, Jesus told the Jews that their rejection of him is rejection of God, because he's from God. Being a Jew just means being a follower of the Antichrist principles of the Talmud.



You're lying saying God will minister to the Jews during the tribulation. There's nothing in the Bible about God ministering to the Jews in the tribulation. On the contrary, the tribulation is nothing but God destroying the Jews, and Christians should get out of the way of God's wrath. And, Christians did.



"Cometh with the clouds" is an OT-established figure of speech for judgement. It's not a figure of speech for "I'm going to save those who pieced Jesus, 2000 years after they died." Hence the wailing and the lamentful "even so". And, hence all the apocalyptic material of the book of Revelation.

The church has both succeeded and failed. Just as Israel did.

After the MK Satan will be the loosed, he will gather another army, margin Jerusalem again but this time that destroys the heavens and the earth. So when you're thinking Christ failed because he was here on the earth running things.

What are you? Amil, post Mil, historicist that, the earth never ends or what?

 

[Helen]

The point is that the perfection - in the sense of completeness - is in Scripture rather than in my understanding of it.

No argument there from me.
And I don't pretend to have even scratched the surface, let alone "understood" the depth of perfection which is in scripture . The mystery of- "Christ (Perfection Himself) in you the hope of Glory."
Amazing grace indeed.

 

[CoreIssue]

1 Corinthians 13:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.