Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus Descends TO THE CLOUDS.

Acts 1:7-9
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Mark 16:19
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 1:10-11
10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Exodus 34:5
[5] And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord .

Luke 3:22
[22] And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Acts 1:7-9
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

James 3:15-18
[15] This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [16] For where envying and strife is , there is confusion and every evil work. [17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Romans 8:18-19
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

[farouk]

It's finally happened!
Regardless of the TV prophets, people are leaving the belief of a pre-trib rapture by leaps and bounds.
Entire denominations are shifting to a belief that the Day of the Lord, whenever that may be, is the rapture as well.
Debates are sure to arise, especially from the pre-trib camp with their die-hard followers.
But what is, is.

A belief that came in with a fury has burnt out.
Will this finally bring us all together?

People will leave the truth, certainly. It's a sign of apostasy; nothing to be proud of.

John 14.1: "I will come again, and receive you unto Myself".

1 Corinthians 1.26: 'For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come."

The Lord's coming specifically to take His waiting people, the church, to be home with Him is not something that is going to go away in Scripture.

 

[Taken]

Acts 1:7-9
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Mark 16:19
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 1:10-11
10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Exodus 34:5
[5] And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord .

Luke 3:22
[22] And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Acts 1:7-9
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

James 3:15-18
[15] This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [16] For where envying and strife is , there is confusion and every evil work. [17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Romans 8:18-19
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

And? Your point in posting Scripture to me?
I have a Bible. I can read.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[101G]

How does Matthew 24:29-36 fit into the timeline of said rapture?
together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

first thanks for the reply.

second, Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". this was by water. but the basic is the same. the same instrument that destroyed the wicked saved the righteous, right , the waters, the flood. God did not remove Noah and his Family before the flood, NO, God protected him and his family while the flood was going on.well the same by fire, and we have a good record of it in the OT.
Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up".

now, question time. did God delivered Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego before being thrown into the fiery furnace? no, but while in the fiery furnace. just as he did Noah and his family, not before the flood came, but in the flood he delivered them. just as with the three hebrews boys, God, the Lord JESUS delivered them while in the FIRE.

now verse you quoted, 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

the gathering of the sain is the FIRST RESURECTION. scripture,
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

caught up "TOGETHER" to meet with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR.
This is the gathering of the ELECT. "caught up" simply means, "to seize" or "to take hold of", which the angels that sent will do. this is the gathering of the Living and dead saint/Elect of God.

clouds here are not natural clouds in the sky, but is the GREAT WITNESS of all believers. supportive scripture, Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us".

Now, the air: it's the greek word, G109 ἀήρ aer (a-eer') n.
“air” (as naturally surrounding).
[from aemi “to breathe unconsciously,” i.e. respire: (by analogy) to blow]
KJV: air

when the dead bodies meet their spirits. do you know what respire means ... to live. and as the definition states, "blow". where have we seen this "BLOWING" at before? scripture, Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". one other place, John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

there's that “to breathe unconsciously,” other words it's so quick, the apostle Paul gave us a glue as to how fast it was, listen, 1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, that fast.

I hope this helped.

 

[Keraz]

the apostle Paul gave us a glue as to how fast it was, listen,

Clueless, but not glueless; you are surely stuck on the 'rrrrapture to heaven' false teaching!

 

[farouk]

Clueless, but not glueless; you are surely stuck on the 'rrrrapture to heaven' false teaching!

It's not false. In terms of who is involved and what happens, there are plenty of verses to show that it's the church that is involved and the church is caught up in the air, taken out of a world reserved to judgment.

 

[Naomi25]

Your point on πτώμα is good. I hadn't noticed it. I was assuming the same word was used in both texts, so Bravo! :)

Now, the above was always my original interpretation. But one problem is that in the parallel text of Luke 17:24-37, false Christs and false prophets are never mentioned, which would mean the text of Luke would not be able to stand on its own independently if that were the consistent meaning of the expression.

... but the presence of πτώμα in Matthew's account does make me take inventory...

It's as if He is using two very similar expressions to teach two different things... teaching on the "corpse" (i.e. the spiritually dead "body") of false christs in one text, and on the living "body" of Christ in the other...

Now isn't that something...

Thanks for the post, sister. That's interesting.

I actually got something from your post as well. I'd never heard your take on it, so did some digging on the words (I had seen the translations of eagle and body before), and was surprised to notice that in the Luke version that, in particular, the word used for "body" is at times used for the body of Christ.
I'm not sure that is the intent of the text in question, but still, it's always nice to learn something new!!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25

OH!! I was just reading through both passages again, and I think I have the entire package now. It's not two different meanings but one: The expression is indeed "where the [dead] body is, there will the vultures be gathered" in both instances, and a derogatory expression about those who will be left on earth (i.e. the carnal, who are destined for destruction) verses the spiritual who will be caught up with Christ in the air (Matthew 24:30-31). In Luke, when the disciples ask "Where Lord?", they are actually asking where the left behind ones will be located, and His answer is the same, "They will be left on earth, and die as a result."

That would mean I was mistaken in claiming "the body" in Luke is the body of Christ. The above interpretation would retain, however, that those who are "taken" in both texts are those caught up in the rapture before the destruction comes (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:9).

I wonder if that would also fit with the passages in Revelation that have the angels calling for the birds to come and feast on the wicked?

 

[101G]

Clueless, but not glueless; you are surely stuck on the 'rrrrapture to heaven' false teaching!

sorry about that, typo.

 

[Nancy]

first thanks for the reply.

second, Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". this was by water. but the basic is the same. the same instrument that destroyed the wicked saved the righteous, right , the waters, the flood. God did not remove Noah and his Family before the flood, NO, God protected him and his family while the flood was going on.well the same by fire, and we have a good record of it in the OT.
Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up".

now, question time. did God delivered Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego before being thrown into the fiery furnace? no, but while in the fiery furnace. just as he did Noah and his family, not before the flood came, but in the flood he delivered them. just as with the three hebrews boys, God, the Lord JESUS delivered them while in the FIRE.

now verse you quoted, 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

the gathering of the sain is the FIRST RESURECTION. scripture,
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

caught up "TOGETHER" to meet with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR.
This is the gathering of the ELECT. "caught up" simply means, "to seize" or "to take hold of", which the angels that sent will do. this is the gathering of the Living and dead saint/Elect of God.

clouds here are not natural clouds in the sky, but is the GREAT WITNESS of all believers. supportive scripture, Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us".

Now, the air: it's the greek word, G109 ἀήρ aer (a-eer') n.
“air” (as naturally surrounding).
[from aemi “to breathe unconsciously,” i.e. respire: (by analogy) to blow]
KJV: air

when the dead bodies meet their spirits. do you know what respire means ... to live. and as the definition states, "blow". where have we seen this "BLOWING" at before? scripture, Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". one other place, John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

there's that “to breathe unconsciously,” other words it's so quick, the apostle Paul gave us a glue as to how fast it was, listen, 1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, that fast.

I hope this helped.

Well, thanks for all of that! I was more interested in the underlined parts of my post; the "timing" of the rapture and how to reconcile the "rapture" with the scripture I quoted/underlined. (How does Matthew 24:29-36 fit into the timeline of said rapture?)


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
It states "...and immediately after those days...you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..." So, IOW-does rapture occur immediately BEFORE the days of the Tribulation or immediately AFTER those days?
In Him
-nancy

 

[101G]

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

if it is after the tribulation then there is no pre-tribulation rapture

 

[Nancy]

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

if it is after the tribulation then there is no pre-tribulation rapture

Ty. :)

 

[101G]

many try to hold on to the pre-tribulation rapture because,
Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

THIS GENERATION?

many christian don't understand what a Biblical Generation here means. understand, a Biblical Generation is a succession of people depending on their character, or characteristic, it have nothing with biology.

example in scripture,
Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
these was not people with scales or was slithering around on the ground, no it was their character

here the generation of vipers was the Pharisees and Sadducees because they was "EVIL".
Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".

who was he speaking to? verse 38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee

understand now, that same evil generation is here present with us today.

for there are only two Biblical Generation from adam, the fallen line and the none fallen line.

hoped that helped.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We all have our destiny. Mine is with the Lord forever In peace and joy....and that is not the picture of the Tribulation.

On the flip side, I have no objection if experiencing the Tribulation ON Earth is something you look forward to and expect to experience.

Simply, we hope for and expect a different destiny.




Thank you, and You as well Rollo...
God Bless,

Taken

I guess it's safe to say you are not a warrior for
Christ

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It's not false. In terms of who is involved and what happens, there are plenty of verses to show that it's the church that is involved and the church is caught up in the air, taken out of a world reserved to judgment.

wimp!

 

[Vexatious]

many try to hold on to the pre-tribulation rapture because,
Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

THIS GENERATION?

many christian don't understand what a Biblical Generation here means.

"Many Christians don't understand..." cue the pretribber lies. (A lie is willful act of either saying something that is untrue or saying something without regard to whether or not it is true. Being mistaken is not a willful act, but when pretribbers maintain their blatant falsehoods after being corrected, they foreclose the possibility of being considered mistaken.)

example in scripture,
Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
these was not people with scales or was slithering around on the ground, no it was their character

here the generation of vipers was the Pharisees and Sadducees because they was "EVIL".
Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".

who was he speaking to? verse 38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee

understand now, that same evil generation is here present with us today.

for there are only two Biblical Generation from adam, the fallen line and the none fallen line.

hoped that helped.

This pretribber argument is "this generation" means the "fallen line" from Adam. (Is anyone really dumb enough to believe such screaming nonsense?)

Pretribbers, liars all, handle "this generation" either by lying about the meaning of "this" or by lying about he meaning of "generation." Most lie about the meaning of "this" (which means the generation present) and say "this" means a later generation (if Jesus had meant that, he would have said "that generation."

Here we have a lie about the meaning of "generation", with the attempted proof that Jesus referred to an evil generation. Yet, there's no shred of evidence Jesus somehow means any other people than those living at the time. On the contrary, Jesus said they'll have a sign of Jonas (Jesus three days and nights in the tomb). Only people living at that time had that sign, matching the normal definition of generation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I wonder if that would also fit with the passages in Revelation that have the angels calling for the birds to come and feast on the wicked?

Absolutely it would. In comparing the two passages I can make no sense of the idea that they would be "taken" to such a destruction, since Jesus immediately follows the teaching with mention of how He is coming like a thief in the night to take the righteous from the enemy before "no flesh can be saved." But separating out the idea of being taken there, that application makes absolute sense to me. :)

 

[101G]

May I say this, just as the apostle Paul said,
1Tim 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Tim 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

[Hidden In Him]

wimp!

Wow... that's not like you, Rollo. : That's a new member you're talking to, and I'm not sure he's said anything that was all that offensive to deserve it.

What's up? Too much caffeine lately or something?

 

[friend of]

Just a question about Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

If pretrib rap is false, why is Luke exhorting us to pray for escape during the time just before Tribulation?

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

if it is after the tribulation then there is no pre-tribulation rapture

Or it's signifying Christ's return with his saints when He returns for the millenniumreign. It says his elect are gathered from heaven which is where his elect will reside after rapture. There will also be new Christian concerts during the Tribulation immediately following the rapture.