Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Keraz]

Believers are not appointed to wrath. If you plan on remaining on earth during the wrath of God, you are not a believer.

I will be on earth during Gods wrath. You will be too and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.
There are many scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His own people, as they pass thru disasters, Psalms 91 7,,,a thousand may fall by your side ...but you it will not touch....

If you plan on departing the earth, then you are deceived and deluded.

 

[The Light]

It's probably because I have you on IGNORE. So don't believe for a second that I'm reading all your posts, for you surely do not do read most of mine.

I read and respond to anything you direct towards me.

And I myself have never found a need to put anyone on ignore. I am more interested in seeking the truth than being right. Do that over a long period of time and your odds of being right improve dramatically if you are willing to change your views when proven wrong.

No man knows the day or hour of Christ's future coming. So why 'watch', right? Isn't that what your pre-trib rapture theory preachers say, why watch? And they don't know what to 'watch' that Jesus commanded either, do they? Isn't that really your point, that we cannot... watch??

No sir, you have all this wrong. I have never heard anyone that believed in a pre trib rapture to say "Why watch?"

And no, my point is NOT that we cannot watch.

We are instructed to watch by the Lord, so we should watch. In fact, I wanted to start a thread two weeks ago about "watch" but had fires to put out.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

BUT... Lord Jesus had MORE TO SAY there about all that!

Let's see you try and explain that, "... if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come" that Jesus said!

Never mind, I'll explain what Jesus meant by that.

IF... and a BIG IF... the goodman of the house (us, Christ's Church that 'watch' like Jesus commanded), KNOW IN WHAT WATCH the thief comes, then we will NOT suffer our house to be broken into! Actually very simple.

But the Lord had yet more to say.

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

If we do not watch...........what happens?

Do you not know about the different 'watches' of the night written in God's Word?? Have you not yet learned that is what Lord Jesus was pointing to in the above Scripture about no man knows the day or hour of His coming, BUT... IF... the goodman knew in WHAT WATCH THE THIEF COMES...?

I am aware.

The SIGNS of the end leading up to His return, which He was giving His faithful elect Church there in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, is WHAT HE GAVE US TO BE WATCHING. And at the last verse of the Mark 13 version, Jesus commanded ALL OF US to WATCH!

Notice how that goodman of the house WILL BE REWARDED WHEN JESUS RETURNS, because he will have WATCHED those SIGNS of the end Jesus gave, and thus will KNOW in WHAT WATCH THE THIEF COMES, and not be deceived along with the rest of the world.

Notice the 24 elders with their reward before the seals are opened.
Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And in Revelation 16:15 when Jesus warned His Church within the 6th Vial timing when He said, "I come as a thief", and then He shows His coming on the final 7th VIAL, and His cup of wrath poured out then, just what kind of WATCH do you think that is?? By that He just TOLD US that His coming for His Church is on the LAST DAY of this present world! That day is called "the day of the Lord", which per Apostles Paul and Peter is to come "as a thief in the night"!

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

He comes for the Church before the tribulation and those that are not watching and ready will believe the lie...........aliens have come.

Then He comes at the 6th seal for the seed of the woman which is the tribes across the earth, which does not include the woman, Israel herself as she is in a place of protection.

Long story short, the only believers that will be on earth at the 6th vial will be the woman, Israel and she will be in her place that was prepared for her.

All believers will be raptured by the 6th seal as we see the great multitude in heaven before the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the Day of the Lord.

(I'm curious. I always highlight a Bible Scripture quote in that blue type, with red accent of certain phrases. But you did the opposite; you highlighted YOUR OWN WORDS in that blue type, and left your Bible quotes in standard black type. What made you do that?)

I used to put all scripture in italics so you can see it easy. Don't remember why I quit. I use color when I want to emphasize something or there are too many scriptures so I highlight my comment. I use color on both scripture and my comments.

 

[The Light]

I will be on earth during Gods wrath. You will be too and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.
There are many scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His own people, as they pass thru disasters, Psalms 91 7,,,a thousand may fall by your side ...but you it will not touch....

If you plan on departing the earth, then you are deceived and deluded.

If you plan on being on earth during the wrath of God, you are either a Jew that has fled to the place of protection from Israel or you are an unbeliever. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

Believers will be at the marriage supper during the 7th seal, one year Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is one indication. Do you need more than this?
Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Yes. How do you conclude that is talking about a literal year and not a literal day when both a day and a year are referenced there? Is this all you have? How does your understanding that the day of the Lord lasts for a year line up with what is written in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? How can "sudden destruction" last for a year? You need to be able to answer these questions if you want to be taken seriously.

Here is where the Lord comes as a thief.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

He doesn't come right at that moment yet, which is within a description of the sixth vial. It seems to imply that He is coming soon at that point, but it doesn't describe Him as coming quite yet at that point. He doesn't actually come until the 7th seal/trumpet/vial.

Here is the sudden destruction.

Revelation 19
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

And how do you figure that this lasts for one year? The sudden destruction occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord, according to Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-3.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened.

Total nonsense. There is no support for that claim. There is only one rapture.

The second rapture occurs at the 6th seal. Seen here...............

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And seen here..........

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

That is the ONE rapture that will occur. You just make it up that there will be one even before that. Paul only wrote about one rapture. Do you think he somehow wasn't aware of another one? I'm sure he would've been aware of it if such a thing was going to happen. He didn't write about another one because there will only be one rapture.

No sir. Those are both the Church in heaven and those that came out of great tribulation.

No sir. It's the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven who are said to be ready for the marriage, which means the marriage has not yet taken place. It will take place after Jesus comes with the souls of the dead in Christ at which point their bodies will be resurrected and they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Immediately after that, the sudden destruction from which "they shall not escape" will occur. Paul describes the same event in 2 Thess 1:7-10 where he indicates that Jesus will take vengeance on all who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ at that time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Isaiah 24, God is pointing to the "sudden destruction" event Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5...

Isa 24:1
1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
KJV

That idea in the Hebrew of making the earth "empty", and "turneth it upside down", is an expression God gives like taking a bottle of fluid and turning it quickly upside sound, and it makes a gurgling sound as it empties.

According to Peter, the "sudden destruction" that Paul said would occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord when it comes as a thief in the night would be come by way of fire upon the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3).

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[The Light]

Yes.

Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 63
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

How do you conclude that is talking about a literal year and not a literal day when both a day and a year are referenced there?

The Word of God has examples of a day being a year. The verse in question equates the day of vengeance to a year of recompenses.

Is this all you have?

No

How does your understanding that the day of the Lord lasts for a year line up with what is written in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? How can "sudden destruction" last for a year?

Sudden destruction does occur during the one year day of the Lord.

You need to be able to answer these questions if you want to be taken seriously.

There are multiple instances in the Word of God that the day of vengeance is one year long. You taking seriously me seriously is not the question. The question is do you take the Word of seriously.

He doesn't come right at that moment yet, which is within a description of the sixth vial. It seems to imply that He is coming soon at that point, but it doesn't describe Him as coming quite yet at that point. He doesn't actually come until the 7th seal/trumpet/vial.

The seventh seal contains the trumpets and vials.

And how do you figure that this lasts for one year? The sudden destruction occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord, according to Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-3.

The day of the Lord occurs during the 7th seal. The trumpets and vials last for one year. Five months of that year are the locusts stinging unbelievers.

Total nonsense. There is no support for that claim. There is only one rapture.

You see one rapture at the very end which puts the Church on earth during wrath of God.

Paul clearly tells the Thessalonians not to be concerned that they have missed the gathering from heaven and earth and are in the day of the Lord, which is the day of wrath. He explains why and also tells them they are not appointed to wrath.

There are two raptures all over scripture. One example is that the fathers of the Jews were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served Baalpeor and would not be the first harvest. That is why after the rapture of the Church there are 144,000 first fruits for the second harvest. The fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

That is the ONE rapture that will occur. You just make it up that there will be one even before that. Paul only wrote about one rapture.

1 Thes 4 The Lord himself comes, at the trump of God or voice of God. Like the days of Noah.

1 Cor 15 He will send His angels at the last trump blown on the feast of Trumpets. Like the days of Lot.

Do you think he somehow wasn't aware of another one?

No, he seems pretty aware.

I'm sure he would've been aware of it if such a thing was going to happen. He didn't write about another one because there will only be one rapture.

Oh but He did. Additionally, the feast of God are a shadow of things to come.

No sir. It's the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven who are said to be ready for the marriage, which means the marriage has not yet taken place.

Is come....................

It will take place after Jesus comes with the souls of the dead in Christ at which point their bodies will be resurrected and they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17).

The dead in Christ rise first. The barley harvest. The alive remain until the wheat harvest. Then 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest.

 

[Davy]

According to Peter, the "sudden destruction" that Paul said would occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord when it comes as a thief in the night would be come by way of fire upon the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3).

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

What happened to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nigo in Daniel 3 when they were cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary?

Those in Christ have no need to go anywhere on that day, because God's "consuming fire" is not about man's nukes and methods of destruction. For Christ's faithful that wait for His coming, we will be in His protection from that consuming fire. Nor are all the wicked going to be destroyed by that consuming fire, even as Zechariah 14 reveals with the leftovers of the armies that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day.

God's "consuming fire" can be very accurate and selective, as accurate as a laser beam. It will not touch those us who remain faithful to Him and waiting on His Son Jesus Christ. Even in the days of Elijah the prophet, God rained fire down from heaven in Elijah's presence and burned up the fifty soldiers sent to arrest Elijah (2 Kings 1).

 

[Davy]

According to Peter, the "sudden destruction" that Paul said would occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord when it comes as a thief in the night would be come by way of fire upon the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3).

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

To explain per God's Word what will happen on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, the 7th Vial being poured out into the "air" is of specific note (Rev.16:17). I don't think the KJV translators really understood why that last Vial would be poured out into the "air". Per Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, those of us still alive on that day of Christ's coming after the trib will be "caught up" to the "air", to meet Lord Jesus descending to earth.

What specific change... is to occur when those events of Christ's coming happens?

Per Apostle Paul, the asleep saints that had died will be raised and Jesus brings those with Him. And then those of us still alive are 'changed' to the "spiritual body" "at the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15).

In other words, that event of God's future "consuming fire" that Peter and Hebrews 12 mentions, will simply end this present flesh earth age. It will not destroy the whole earth, but only cleanse the surface of this earth of man's works, just as God ended the previous worlds with a flood of waters which did not destroy the complete earth.

Isaiah 25 is the chapter where Apostle Paul quoted about death swallowed up in victory, and it is pointing to all... nations and peoples having the veil of this present world removed on that day.

 

[Taken]

No, I don't have a problem with Bible Scripture. I'm not saying I know it all,

Scripture is Knowledge.

but I certainly don't have a problem with what Lord Jesus revealed about His future coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation, per Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

You should have LEARNED the UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE…

From ancient HISTORY…
* Gods CHOSEN called Hebrews ARE Gods ELECT…
* Gods ESTABLISHED and CHOSEN TRIBES ARE Gods ELECT…
* All Generations directly descended from Particular Hebrews, Tribes, ARE modernly called JEWS……ARE Gods CHOSEN ELECT
* JESUS was SENT, From Gods Mouth IN Heaven TO EARTH, TO PREACH TO Gods CHOSEN ELECT JEWS.
* JESUS, arrived on Earth, IN A Holy BODY, God prepared, IN the LIKENESS AS a JEWISH man, CALLED, the Son of Man, Having A Legal father, Called Joseph and Legal mother Called Mary.
* 30 Years LATER:
God DECLARED;
THIS JESUS…came FORTH OUT From God.
THIS JESUS…God WILL be A Father to Him.
THIS JESUS..WILL be A Son unto God.
THIS JESUS..IS God “WITH” men “OF” earth.
THIS JESUS..IS SENT TO SEEK and PREACH TO the JEWS.

* THIS JESUS…SOUGHT and CHOSE…12 JEWISH men TO BE His Disciples. The men AGREED TO Hear and LEARN From JESUS.
* THIS JESUS…(in Preparing TO LEAVE THIS World and RETURN TO “HIS Heavenly KINGDOM”……”GAVE” His “TAUGHT and “PREPARED Disciples”…
A Task/ Mission/ TO CARRY ON THIS JESUS’ WORKS….of Seeking and Teaching JEWS “AS” APOSTLES (TEACHERS)…OF Gods Word…TO Gods ELECT!

* THIS JESUS…ASIDE From / IN ADDITION To) the 12 JEWS JESUS Chose TO Exclusively SEEK and TEACH Gods ELECT JEWS….
* THIS JESUS…ALSO CHOSE “ONE” man, OF BOTH…GENTILE and JEWISH ancestry…(Excellently educated IN JEWISH LAW “and” a Roman Citizen…) TO BE Taught for 3 Years (Same as The 12 This JESUS Chose of Gods ELECT. )
* This “ONE” man AGREED (same as the 12).
* This “ONE” man, accomplished his 3 years…AND BECAME an APOSTLE…TO Serve;
TO TEACH…the WORD of God TO;
KINGS, JEWS and GENTILES.

You identify the Chapter 24 of the Book of Matthew and Chapter 13 of the Book of Mark AS YOUR “PROOF” TO REJECT the Rapture and Timing thereof.

Matthew 24:
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them…

Matt 24: IS JESUS “WITH His JEWISH disciples” having a Conversation ABOUT…end of days, sorrows, AND the EFFECTS of “THOSE Days” ….ON Gods ELECT JEWS…upon the face of the Earth.

Mark 13: IS the SAME…JESUS having A conversation with His Disciples regarding the end times and JEWS.

Are YOU a JEW THAT JESUS sent Jewish Disciples / Apostles TO TEACH You what Gods Jewish ELECT can expect “FOR THEM” in the End of Days?


Hummm?

 

[Taken]

We all know the "wrath" you are pointing to is from 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Yes…The Teaching of Paul…as Jesus Appointed to Teach the Gentiles…
Gods Tribulations and Wrath sent down from Heaven…
IS NOT appointed for Those IN Christ to be Subject to.

Like IN the days of Noah when God sent down from Heaven, His Tribulations and Wrath upon the whole world…The Faithful ALSO were not appointed to suffer Gods Wrath AND WERE Lifted UP Above the Earth to the clouds…

Gods ESCAPE PLAN is nothing new…the Saved and Quicked IN Christ…As was faithful Noah are Lifted Up From the face of the Earth.

While you APPLY to yourself that which applies to A JEW…
I will presume you ARE a Jew…

I am a Gentile, IN Christ…and already DELIVERED FROM the Tribulations and Wrath to come Down From Heaven.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Ecc1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

1Thes.1​

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

​

1Thes.5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

To ESCAPE the promised Tribulations and Wrath to be Send Down from Heaven (once again)…
* You SHOULD Learn HOW…which is ONLY for those “IN” Christ…Gentiles…to ESCAPE ALL of the Tribulations and Wrath sent down fro Heaven.
* And “IN” Jesus …for ALL others (Jews and Gentiles)…WHO suffer the Tribulations AND Wrath SENT down by The Lamb of God..
(The SEALS Judgements )

Probably TOO precise and Deep for you…
Perhaps you should first figure out your Race…Jew or Gentile.

 

[Davy]

Scripture is Knowledge.

You should have LEARNED the UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE…

You white-washed wall! You think to lecture me... on knowledge of God's written Word?!?

You REJECT WHAT LORD JESUS SHOWED about His future coming to gather His Church per those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures that I quoted, and you have the AUDACITY to suggest that I should have, "LEARNED the UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE" (you referring of course to Bible Scripture).

May my Heavenly Father and His Son rebuke you, in the Name of Jesus Christ!

 

[wooddog]

To explain per God's Word what will happen on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, the 7th Vial being poured out into the "air" is of specific note (Rev.16:17). I don't think the KJV translators really understood why that last Vial would be poured out into the "air". Per Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, those of us still alive on that day of Christ's coming after the trib will be "caught up" to the "air", to meet Lord Jesus descending to earth.

What specific change... is to occur when those events of Christ's coming happens?

Per Apostle Paul, the asleep saints that had died will be raised and Jesus brings those with Him. And then those of us still alive are 'changed' to the "spiritual body" "at the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15).

In other words, that event of God's future "consuming fire" that Peter and Hebrews 12 mentions, will simply end this present flesh earth age. It will not destroy the whole earth, but only cleanse the surface of this earth of man's works, just as God ended the previous worlds with a flood of waters which did not destroy the complete earth.

Isaiah 25 is the chapter where Apostle Paul quoted about death swallowed up in victory, and it is pointing to all... nations and peoples having the veil of this present world removed on that day.

Reserved for the tares with their lamps half full and anything else that offends.

 

[Taken]

You white-washed wall! You think to lecture me... on knowledge of God's written Word?!?

You REJECT WHAT LORD JESUS SHOWED about His future coming

Now, Now Davy calm yourself down…
Shouting False accusations Does NOT make your Position Accurate.

There IS NOT one word of Scripture I have EVER Said I deny…

And IF I HAD…you wouldn’t have to Gaslight, and make a Lying claim for me…You could just quote me.

You quoting Matthew (a Jew), and Mark (a Jew)… being taught WHAT to Teach the Jews…
HAS WHAT Exactly to DO with a GENTILE IN Christ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

That certainly is a LIE, and a bunch of balderdash, and is actually more aligned with how Communists think.

Lol
Do some kind of reality check.
Look at your vile nasty post.
It is that same spirit that attacks pretribbers, calling them names INSISTING we are guided by Satan.

Too funny how you guys seem to be devoid of the spirit of God.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Words of Jesus=
Luke 21-36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”===rapture!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What happened to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nigo in Daniel 3 when they were cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary?

Those in Christ have no need to go anywhere on that day, because God's "consuming fire" is not about man's nukes and methods of destruction. For Christ's faithful that wait for His coming, we will be in His protection from that consuming fire. Nor are all the wicked going to be destroyed by that consuming fire, even as Zechariah 14 reveals with the leftovers of the armies that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day.

God's "consuming fire" can be very accurate and selective, as accurate as a laser beam. It will not touch those us who remain faithful to Him and waiting on His Son Jesus Christ. Even in the days of Elijah the prophet, God rained fire down from heaven in Elijah's presence and burned up the fifty soldiers sent to arrest Elijah (2 Kings 1).

I totally disagree. There is no indication whatsoever that any mortal could survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. In 2 Peter 3:6-7, Peter compares the event directly to the flood. How may unbelievers survived the flood? None. That's how it will be at Christ's second coming as well, as Jesus Himself taught in Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-30. No unbelievers will survive while all believers will put on immortality when their bodies are changed from natural, mortal bodies to spiritual, immortal bodies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To explain per God's Word what will happen on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, the 7th Vial being poured out into the "air" is of specific note (Rev.16:17). I don't think the KJV translators really understood why that last Vial would be poured out into the "air". Per Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, those of us still alive on that day of Christ's coming after the trib will be "caught up" to the "air", to meet Lord Jesus descending to earth.

What specific change... is to occur when those events of Christ's coming happens?

Per Apostle Paul, the asleep saints that had died will be raised and Jesus brings those with Him. And then those of us still alive are 'changed' to the "spiritual body" "at the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15).

In other words, that event of God's future "consuming fire" that Peter and Hebrews 12 mentions, will simply end this present flesh earth age. It will not destroy the whole earth, but only cleanse the surface of this earth of man's works, just as God ended the previous worlds with a flood of waters which did not destroy the complete earth.

Isaiah 25 is the chapter where Apostle Paul quoted about death swallowed up in victory, and it is pointing to all... nations and peoples having the veil of this present world removed on that day.

Just to be clear, I don't claim that the fire that will come down on the earth when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-12) will annihilate the earth. It will renew the earth, resulting in the new earth that Peter said we are looking forward to (2 Peter 3:13). We will spend eternity dwelling on the new earth with our changed, spiritual bodies at that point.

 

[Keraz]

Words of Jesus=
Luke 21-36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”===rapture!!!

Words of Jesus in the previous verse: Luke 21:35 For like a trap, disaster will come upon all who dwell upon the earth.
There is no 'escape by a rapture', for anyone. What is coming will be our test by fire, 1 Peter 4:12 and we must prove our faith by standing firm in our trust for His protection.

 

[Taken]

Lol
Do some kind of reality check.
Look at your vile nasty post.
It is that same spirit that attacks pretribbers, calling them names INSISTING we are guided by Satan.

Too funny how you guys seem to be devoid of the spirit of God.

They TALK about believing, about being Christian

They do Not talk about Being “converted”… applying to them, or How or Why it applies to Them.

They talk About…Jesus said…”___”.

Jesus came to Seek and Preach to the JEWS.

Jesus Chose Disciples to be Apostles, To continue Seeking and Teaching and Preaching TO the JEWS…(which included the WHOLE of the Chosen and ELECT Twelve Tribes of ISRAEL.)?

Jesus EXPRESSLY Told his Disciples to NOT GO to the GENTILES.

So why are the Likes of some “calling themselves” “ Christians”…and “most likely are Gentiles” are Preaching …
what Jesus was Teaching To His Jewish Disciples, Regarding the Jewish people AND the EFFECTS of the Tribulations, upon the Jewish people, WHO Reject Jesus (IS the Christ…)
IS those Jews BEING TOLD To Teach the Gentiles?
They do not answer!

The Jewish People…briefly (some) were being Taught AND Accepting Jesus IS the Christ…
As the Apostles were dying off…So Also did teaching to the Jews (in the Synagogue's) that..Jesus IS the Christ!

So yes what Jesus was Teaching TO His Jewish Disciples, For them To Teach To The JEWS, and For the JEWS Expectation IS TRUE!

Paul, was EXPRESSLY tasked with Learning, Then…Teaching TO the GENTILES….

And according TO Paul…
The Jews OR Gentiles…”WHO”, become “Converted”….. IN Christ …
BEFORE the Tribulations sent down from Heaven…
“Are” Escap-ED, deliver-ED From wrath…and EXPRESSLY Not appointed to WRATH.

So ARE ANY JEWS Appointed TO ANY Wrath?

YES.
JEWS …who reject Belief IN God…like ANY other man, will suffer…
Wrath of the Lamb.
Wrath of the Devil.
Wrath of God.

JEWS…who believe IN God…believe IN Jesus…like any other man…will suffer…
Wrath of the Lamb.
Portions of the Wrath of the Devil.
None of the Wrath of God.

JEWS …or ANY other man…who HAS CONFESSED To the Lord…
(“Before the Tribulations sent down from heaven…”)
True Belief IN God and IN Christ Jesus…
Shall Suffer…
No wrath of the Lamb
No wrath of the Devil
No wrath of God

And…the same IN CHRIST…shall be lifted UP off the face of the Earth as Paul Reveals and as Scripture Reveals Applied to Faithful Noah (and his family), BEFORE the First Great Tribulation sent down from Heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rockytopva]

All dispensational teaching are merely guesses...

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. - Acts 1:7

If I had to guess based on my readings of scripture... The images are screenshots from what came up with in Excel along with the estimated dates....

4300 BC - Creation of Adam
2640 BC - The Great Flood
2053 AD - The Rapture of the Church
2060 AD - Christ’s coming (The 2060AD quote is a close estimation and not an exact date)
3100 AD - End of millennial and destruction of planet earth

I have man on this planet 7,400 years, and would put the accuracy of these dates within 400 years.... Taking the timeline of the church in parallel with the generations of Adam there was a severe famine during the time Noah was born. I would imagine a time of famine during the time of the Black Horseman, which days I believe we now live in....

As far as prophecies I believe that Isaac Newton was closest... And to fully quote the guy...

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. -Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming may be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ's coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes..

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton