Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[rebuilder 454]

Where are you getting this stuff?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I know Jesus comes on white horses and destroys AC and his army. That is Revelation 19 which happens at the 6th vial.

I don't know what you mean when you say I have transposed Jesus coming in power on white horses onto Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle.

This is NOT the same event. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. It is a harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. It has nothing to do white Jesus coming on white horses.

You think Matthew 24 is the white horse's event. It is not. We have proof that Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal and not at the 6th vial.

Show me where he comes in power and great glory.
Show me in scripture.

Only one place.
Rev 19.
After the wrath
Your entire deal hinges on you making a word " tribulation " some foundation of misinterpretation.

You now have Jesus With a sickle sitting on a cloud transposed into a Warrior king with a sword ,and not a sickle , with millions of horses. That is what you have done

No brainer that Matt 24 is the second coming on white horses.
Ahem....AFTER THE WRATH.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am not putting the Revelation 19 white horses' event before wrath.

I think you are drawing this conclusion because I am putting the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 at the 6th seal. AND YOU think that Matthew 24 is the white horses event. It is not. I am showing you that Matthew 24 is NOT the white horses event. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is a harvest which is why the angels are sent to gather the elect.

Nope
You left out "power and great glory."
Show me how it all works out once the context is introduced.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What? The Word says Matt24 is not Rev 19. The Word says Matt24 occurs at the 6th seal. We know this by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Quit believing what has been incorrectly passed around and read what it says.

Remember you keep leaving out "power and great glory "
Then you say " it all fits"

Nope not a chance.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't think when Jesus shows up, He will be in power and glory. In Matthew 24 He sends His angels to gather the elect.........a harvest. Explain to me hOw that is the white horses event. Explain how that is Armageddon?

The Word shows the signs of the sun, moon and stars happening at the 6th seal...............harvest before wrath.

Explain to me how "power and great glory" is not the white horses.

Jesus told you in Acts 1 and EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, It is peacetime, commerce and normal daily life.
Which BTW destroys your assumption of your claim ( in exact defiance of the bible) that Jesus is depicting a postrib rapture with the Noah example.

Nope
Way way off my friend

 

[Davy]

It is amazing how easily some folks are fooled that are on man's FALSE Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory.

All the believer need do is listen to Lord Jesus Himself...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

"... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." -- that is about Jesus gathering the saints still alive on earth on the day of His 2nd coming, the "caught up" event Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

"... they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- That is about Jesus gathering the "asleep" saints that He brings with Him when He comes, like Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16. They must be resurrected first, which means the LAST DAY of this present world, which is when Jesus' 2nd coming will be (John 6:40).


Therefore, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RAPTURE PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION, AND THEN A SECOND COMING LATER.

The so-called word... 'rapture' is from men's doctrine (from Latin). The KJV and earlier Bible translations to English used the phrase "caught up" regarding Christ's gathering of His saints still alive on earth when He returns (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Thus Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse, and Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, and in 2 Thessalonians 2, showed that Lord Jesus' future coming will be AFTER... the "great tribulation", and AFTER... the "man of sin" is revealed, showing the whole world who that false one really is. That will happen ONLY when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming. There is NO 3rd coming, no rapture PRIOR to the "great tribulation", as that idea is NOWHERE WRITTEN in God's Word, but is a false doctrine from Satan's host or those deceived by him.

 

[Keraz]

So you're saying you don't know what happens during a lunar eclipse.

And you can't find the great multitude in heaven during the marriage supper.

A lunar eclipse in can make the moon appear reddish. Depending on where a person is viewing it from.

I have seen an eclipse of the sun and of the moon. Neither fulfil the Prophesied description of what will happen at the Sixth Seal.
Isaiah 30:26a says the moon will shine as bright as the sun.......by reflection of the sun being 7 times brighter.

What makes you both look real silly, is the fact that we know how the Prophesies can and will be literally fulfilled.

Re the great multitude of Christian peoples; they are in Jerusalem, not heaven. Nowhere does the Bible tell us about humans in heaven.
Jesus tells us several times, that going to heaven is impossible. Only after the Millennium, does God and heaven come to the new earth. Rev 21:1-7

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Re the great multitude of Christian peoples; they are in Jerusalem, not heaven. Nowhere does the Bible tell us about humans in heaven.
Jesus tells us several times, that going to heaven is impossible. Only after the Millennium, does God and heaven come to the new earth. Rev 21:1-7

Jesus was talking about bodily going to heaven when He said no one has gone there. Only He has gone to heaven bodily. But, the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now, also.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The location of the altar referenced in this passage is in heaven.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

John saw "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God" there. We know that the souls John saw are in heaven because they are talking to the Lord and that is where He is and where the altar is.

When scripture talks about saints coming with Jesus at His return, it's talking about the souls of the dead in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Douggg]

I have seen an eclipse of the sun and of the moon. Neither fulfil the Prophesied description of what will happen at the Sixth Seal.
Isaiah 30:26a says the moon will shine as bright as the sun.......by reflection of the sun being 7 times brighter.

What makes you both look real silly, is the fact that we know how the Prophesies can and will be literally fulfilled.

Keraz, we were talking about what will take place in the sixth seal event and in Matthew 24:29.

@The Light 's point was that a lunar eclipse can result in a reddish appearing moon while the eclipse is taking place. And suggested that we go look at some You Tube videos. Which I did and I concur. That does not mean that an eclipse necessarily causes the appearance effects on the moon in those passages.

Re the great multitude of Christian peoples; they are in Jerusalem, not heaven. Nowhere does the Bible tell us about humans in heaven.

John himself was called up to heaven by Jesus, and shown the things that are to come. Revelation 4:1.

The 24 elders were in heaven. And John foresaw the slain great tribulation saints in heaven before the altar of God in the fifth seal. And John foresaw the souls of them in Christ who had died during the Great Tribulation in Revelation 7. Nothing is said about the souls of the great multitude being Jerusalem in Revelation 7.

In Revelation 12, when Satan will be cast down to earth as the third woe to the inhabiter of the earth, it says...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

In Revelation 11 is the rejoicing in heaven over Satan's near end, having only a time, times, half time left.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

 

[The Light]

Quote:
"The Word is talking about the tribulation of those days which is over with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as proven by Matthew 24. Wrath is the 7th seal."

Then Jesus was mistaken when he said "then shall there be great tribulation such as has never been seen, and will Never be seen again."
Because after the 3.5 halfway point of the 7 yr trib it is WORSE TRIBULATION.

Jesus was perfectly clear. The great tribulation will be the greatest tribulation seen on earth. The Great Tribulation which is brought against believers by Satan is NOT the Day of the Lord, wrath of God, brought against unbelievers by God. It's simple.

Sow we know no modern warfare or dictator is as bad as the last half of the seven yr trib.

There is no 7 year tribulation.

According to Jesus some trib is coming that will never be matched.

Strawman.

If you insist that there can be no trib in the last 3.5 years then the red flags have possibly blinded you.

Don't recall saying that.

Jesus lied in your doctrine because it says the last half ( wrath) is not the unmatched tribulation the Jesus declared

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You fail to understand that the great tribulation is brought against believers. The wrath of God is brought against unbelievers.

 

[The Light]

Show me where he comes in power and great glory.
Show me in scripture.

No problem...........

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And this event occurs as the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Only one place.
Rev 19.
After the wrath
Your entire deal hinges on you making a word " tribulation " some foundation of misinterpretation.

No. It's understanding that tribulation is brought against believers by Satan and the wrath of God, the one year Day of the Lord, day of vengeance is brought against unbelievers.

You now have Jesus With a sickle sitting on a cloud transposed into a Warrior king with a sword ,and not a sickle , with millions of horses. That is what you have done

Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days for a harvest. It is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that are raptured at the 6th seal. They sing the song of Moses.

Jesus comes at the 6th vial for Armageddon with a sword. No mystery if you just accept what is written.

No brainer that Matt 24 is the second coming on white horses.
Ahem....AFTER THE WRATH.

I see no white horse mentioned in Matthew 24. I see no Armageddon mentioned in Matthew 24. I do see the signs of the sun, moon and stars telling us that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal wrath of God will begins.

 

[The Light]

Nope
You left out "power and great glory."
Show me how it all works out once the context is introduced.

No problem. But you keep denying context.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 about end times. John tells us in Revelation about end times. We should be able to find what Jesus tells us in the information that John tells us. We can.

What Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 can be found in Revelation 6.

Matthew 24:5-8 are the first 4 seals.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:9-21 is the 5th seal.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the 6th seal marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This what is written

 

[The Light]

Remember you keep leaving out "power and great glory "
Then you say " it all fits"

Nope not a chance.

You keep saying I leave out power and glory. Do you not think that Jesus arriving as lightning coming from the east to the west with an army of angels is power and glory. It says it right in the text in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It also tells us in Matthew 24 when this event will occur. It will occur immediately after the tribulation which is Satan going after believers.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

We see the timing at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

How many times do the stars fall from heaven? What are the stars falling from heaven?

What happens after the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal? The seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

 

[The Light]

Explain to me how "power and great glory" is not the white horses.

Your logic is incorrect. I am not saying that when Jesus shows up on white horses He will not be in power and glory. Anytime Jesus shows up after His ascension He will be in power and glory.

Just read what the Word says and quit believing things passed down from earlier times.

In Matthew 24 we see He comes with His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. When He comes on with white horse, Revelation19, is He coming to gather the elect or is He coming to destroy the armies at Armageddon? When He comes on white horses why would He come with His angels to gather the elect when they are already in heaven for the marriage supper.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The great multitude is in heaven after the gathering that takes place at the 6th seal. Revelation 7 shows us the great multitude in heaven already...........before the 7th seal wrath of God.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.........just like the Word says, and the wrath of God will happen after the 7th seal is opened.

Jesus told you in Acts 1 and EVERY RAPTURE VERSE, It is peacetime, commerce and normal daily life.
Which BTW destroys your assumption of your claim ( in exact defiance of the bible) that Jesus is depicting a postrib rapture with the Noah example.

Nope
Way way off my friend

Acts 1 is the second advent when Jesus setz His feet on mount of Olives after the wrath of God.

The example of Noah is a picture of the Church sealed in the ark before the tribulation. Noah enters the ark on day one of the seven when life is normal. We do not know what day he is shut in.

The example of Lot is a picture of the twelve tribes leaving the earth before the day of vengeance. After the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal, the Day of the Lord will begin. Those suffering tribulation are the Jews. Those that have taken the mark are not in tribulation. After the tribulation is over because it is cut short, the world will be saying peace and safety and then the Lord will show up in power and glory to gather the elect. Then the Day of the Lord, the 7th seal will begin.

In conclusion there is nothing in Matthew 24 talking about white horses and the armies of heaven coming for Armageddon. There are angels coming for a harvest. The harvest is at the 6th seal which we can tell because of the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Brother. The beginning of truly understanding Revelation begins when you understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

There is no evidence that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 with angels to gather the elect has anything whatsoever to do with Jesus coming on white horses for Armageddon. If you truly want to understand Revelation, you need to put things where God says they go and not where people have passed down the wrong information. The end times have been sealed until the time of the end, which appears to be now.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What? The Word says Matt24 is not Rev 19. The Word says Matt24 occurs at the 6th seal. We know this by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Quit believing what has been incorrectly passed around and read what it says.

Well you made that up.
Show me "power and great glory" at any rapture verse.

You never figured it in.
It makes your ENTIRE DEAL IMPOSSIBLE.
IT ONLY fits the return on white horses.
But at least we can see exactly where you begin the willy nilly misplacements
Including the misunderstanding that Noah and Lot go through a made up 3.5 years of trib before they are removed....face plant.
Totally made up out of nowhere.

 

[The Light]

It is amazing how easily some folks are fooled that are on man's FALSE Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory.

Nah. It is far more amazing that there are many that don't believe that Jesus will keep His promise and come in an hour that they think not.

We are told to watch and be ready. To those who are looking for Him will He appear a second time.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Sadly, the foolish virgins don't know that they are the foolish virgins.

All the believer need do is listen to Lord Jesus Himself...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

"... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." -- that is about Jesus gathering the saints still alive on earth on the day of His 2nd coming, the "caught up" event Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

"... they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- That is about Jesus gathering the "asleep" saints that He brings with Him when He comes, like Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16. They must be resurrected first, which means the LAST DAY of this present world, which is when Jesus' 2nd coming will be (John 6:40).

This is the second harvest. Jesus will come immediately after the tribulation of those days for the 12 tribes across the earth. They will have their eyes opened after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretribulation rapture. We are warned not to be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Therefore, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RAPTURE PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION, AND THEN A SECOND COMING LATER.

There is a rapture before the tribulation which begins mid-week. There is also a rapture immediately after the tribulation of those days when the Lord will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth prior to the Day of the Lord, one year wrath of God.

The so-called word... 'rapture' is from men's doctrine (from Latin). The KJV and earlier Bible translations to English used the phrase "caught up" regarding Christ's gathering of His saints still alive on earth when He returns (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Christ comes for the dead first.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Thus Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse, and Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, and in 2 Thessalonians 2, showed that Lord Jesus' future coming will be AFTER... the "great tribulation", and AFTER... the "man of sin" is revealed, showing the whole world who that false one really is. That will happen ONLY when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming. There is NO 3rd coming, no rapture PRIOR to the "great tribulation", as that idea is NOWHERE WRITTEN in God's Word, but is a false doctrine from Satan's host or those deceived by him.

Maybe you should study the Feasts of God. They are a shadow of what is to come.

Maybe you should study why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Bottom line, it's all written in God's Word, you just cannot see.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You keep saying I leave out power and glory. Do you not think that Jesus arriving as lightning coming from the east to the west with an army of angels is power and glory. It says it right in the text in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It also tells us in Matthew 24 when this event will occur. It will occur immediately after the tribulation which is Satan going after believers.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

We see the timing at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

How many times do the stars fall from heaven? What are the stars falling from heaven?

What happens after the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal? The seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

No rapture verse has YOUR SETTING.
AGAIN..you totally 100% made all that up!

Every rapture verse has NORMAL LIFE, EVERYDAY ACTIVITIES , FREE COMMERCE, AND PEACETIME.

 

[The Light]

No rapture verse has YOUR SETTING.
AGAIN..you totally 100% made all that up!

Every rapture verse has NORMAL LIFE, EVERYDAY ACTIVITIES , FREE COMMERCE, AND PEACETIME.

Please.

You've got Christ that sends angels sent to gather the elect and you want to put that at Armageddon.

There are no signs of the sun, moon and stars at Armageddon. They are at the 6th seal.

 

[Douggg]

Please.

You've got Christ that sends angels sent to gather the elect and you want to put that at Armageddon.

There are no signs of the sun, moon and stars at Armageddon. They are at the 6th seal.

Armageddon, in Revelation 16:16, is the location where the kings of the earth will gather their armies to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

What causes that reaction by the kings of the earth is that in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, is Jesus appearing in heaven, sickle in hand - intending to avenge the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs in the fifth seal seal. Revelation 6:10.

Revelation 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Armageddon is not a one day event. From when Jesus first appears in heaven to when Jesus descends to earth to avenge the blood of the Great Tribulation martyrs is 45 days. Determined from Daniel 12:11-12, the difference between the 1290 days (to Jesus first appearing in heaven sickle in hand) and the 1335th day, the day that Jesus descends to earth.

During that 45 days, the kings of earth will take a portion of their armies, surround Jerusalem, and take half the city as hostages in Zechariah 14. Their troops raping the women and pillaging the city.

Those armies surrounding Jerusalem will be destroyed by Jesus. While the rest of the kings of the earth armies in the rest of Israel will be destroyed by the angel given a sickle in Revelation 14. The blood will run deep as a horse's bridle for 200 miles, it says in Revelation 14:20.

If you look at Revelation 14:20, the angel's destruction is separate from Jesus's destruction of the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


After Jesus executes His wrath in Revelation 19:17-21, then He sends His angels out to gather the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel, the land of their forefathers, in Matthew 24:31, fulfilling Deuteronomy 30:1-6. The gathering is also in Ezekiel 39:28. Jesus's Second Coming is also in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please.

You've got Christ that sends angels sent to gather the elect and you want to put that at Armageddon.

There are no signs of the sun, moon and stars at Armageddon. They are at the 6th seal.

Explain how they get on white horses of rev 19 which is tge second coming on white horses????
Mat 24 fits PERFECTLY

Do you think ANGELS ALREADY IN HEAVEN, GATHER ALL THAT ARMY TO ASSEMBLE IN HEAVEN ON WHITE HORSES?????
But you leave out that that coming by Jesus is in power and great glory IN MAT 24

Which is OPPOSITE OF THE SETTING AT EVERY RAPTURE VERSE
Your setting is completely off and wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No problem. But you keep denying context.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 about end times. John tells us in Revelation about end times. We should be able to find what Jesus tells us in the information that John tells us. We can.

What Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 can be found in Revelation 6.

Matthew 24:5-8 are the first 4 seals.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:9-21 is the 5th seal.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the 6th seal marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This what is written

Yes.
Angels gather the elect from heaven as you point out, not realizing in the rapture Jesus gathers.
So maybe put all context on table