Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Douggg]

I have already told you this is IMPOSSIBLE.

Here is 5 months that proves what you are saying is incorrect.

Revelation 9
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

What does the flesh tormenting locust period of five months have to do with with events that take place at the end of the 7 years ?

I think you need to try and make some timeline charts of events.

 

[Douggg]

Put the sledge away and quit forcing things. It doesn't end with the sign and it is not Revelation 19

What does not end with the sign of Son of man ? Are you referring to the Great Tribulation ? No, the Great Tribulation lasts 1335 days. The Great Tribulation does not end with the sign of the Son of man.

"The tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 is the first 1290 days of the 1335 day long Great Tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Rapture................................

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus does not send his angels to rapture anyone. The rapture is by the voice of Jesus, just as He called John up to heaven in Revelation 4:1.

Matthew 24:31 will be the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:1-6. "from one end of heaven to the other" Matthew 24:31.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Douggg]

Again your view is unscriptural. Here are the righteous being harvested.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

It does not say anything about the righteous being harvested in those verses.

Jesus has a sickle. And an angel is also given a sickle

Jesus at his return, stands on the Mt. of Olives. And destroys the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

For the armies that have filled in the rest of Israel, particularly at Armageddon, north of Jerusalem, the angel which is also given a sickle destroys those armies.

 

[Keraz]

What's the difference?


Yeah........the ones that are still here.

Rev 6:12...the moon as red as blood....
Matthew 24:29 ...the moon will not give her light....
Also the context of these and other scriptures, proves the Sixth Seal and the glorious Return cannot be the same event.

The fanciful idea of a rapture before the Lords Day of wrath, is wrong and is totally unprovable.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 6:12...the moon as red as blood....
Matthew 24:29 ...the moon will not give her light....

The moon gives off light by its surface reflection from the sun. When the moon does so - it appears white.

Becoming red as blood, the moon no longer gives off it's light.

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event.

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The sixth seal event is not a rapture.

It also not Jesus's immediate return, but precedes Jesus's return by 45 days.

 

[Douggg]

During the 45 days that the kings of the earth prepare to make war on Jesus on His armies, they will encompass Jerusalem in Zechariah 14, and take half the city as hostages.

When Jesus returns and stands on the mount of Olives, in Zechariah 14:2-5, it will create a valley which the hostages will escape to safety through.

 

[The Light]

Rev 6:12...the moon as red as blood....
Matthew 24:29 ...the moon will not give her light....

I've told you this before. Go watch a lunar eclipse. Both events.....the moon turns red.........and the moon does not give light, occur. So your argument has no legs.

Also the context of these and other scriptures, proves the Sixth Seal and the glorious Return cannot be the same event.

Try using plain, simple, logic. The sun, moon and stars event marks the 6th seal as the time that Matthew 24 occurs.

The fanciful idea of a rapture before the Lords Day of wrath, is wrong and is totally unprovable.

All you are doing is denying the FACTS.

 

[The Light]

The moon gives off light by its surface reflection from the sun. When the moon does so - it appears white.

Becoming red as blood, the moon no longer gives off it's light.

Please go to youtube and watch a video of a lunar eclipse.

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event.

Matthew 24:29-31 is a sixth seal event.

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The sixth seal event is not a rapture.

Rapture is seen here.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It also not Jesus's immediate return, but precedes Jesus's return by 45 days.

This is just something that you have made up. The sixth seal happens and then the seventh seal happens. The 7th seal is one year long as it is the year of vengeance. 5 months happen at the 5th trumpet. That is 150 days.

Please destroy your chart as it is totally and completely unscriptural.

 

[The Light]

It does not say anything about the righteous being harvested in those verses.

Jesus has a sickle. And an angel is also given a sickle

Man Douggg, Read below. Jesus swings the sickle and the righteous are harvested. This is a harvest...........a rapture. Another angel comes and swings a different sickle. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. This is simple.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus at his return, stands on the Mt. of Olives. And destroys the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. It is the second coming. The righteous that are on the earth are raptured. They go to heaven for the marriage supper. The unrighteous remain on earth during the 7th seal. That is the day of the Lord. After the 6th trumpet Armageddon happens. At the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord..............He stands on the mount of Olives.....the second advent.

For the armies that have filled in the rest of Israel, particularly at Armageddon, north of Jerusalem, the angel which is also given a sickle destroys those armies.

 

[Douggg]

This is just something that you have made up. The sixth seal happens and then the seventh seal happens. The 7th seal is one year long as it is the year of vengeance. 5 months happen at the 5th trumpet. That is 150 days.

The seventh seal action is the sealing of the 144,000 before the trumpet plagues and vial plagues begin - which those plagues do hurt to the earth during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation lasts 1335 days.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 5th trumpet, 1st woe, is during the final time, times, half time that Satan will have left. The time, times, half time is roughly 42 months long. So he five months of the tormenting locust creatures does not have to be near the end.

Please destroy your chart as it is totally and completely unscriptural.

My charts are accurate. Makes some chart that reflect your view.

 

[The Light]

Jesus does not send his angels to rapture anyone. The rapture is by the voice of Jesus, just as He called John up to heaven in Revelation 4:1.

Yes the voice of God signals the rapture of the Church. The Church goes to heaven with the Lord.

After this harvest of the Gentiles, there are 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. That harvest occurs at the 6th seal. Those harvested are Jews as they are singing the song of Moses. This rapture happens at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.

Matthew 24:31 will be the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:1-6. "from one end of heaven to the other" Matthew 24:31.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Exactly. They are Jews.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus comes at the 6th seal.

Jesus does not come in the 6th seal event.

Jesus will be seen in heaven, sickle in hand. His intent will be to execute vengeance on those who martyred the great tribulation saints of the 5th seal. That's why the wicked of the world in 6th seal event are terrified.

 

[The Light]

The seventh seal action is the sealing of the 144,000 before the trumpet plagues and vial plagues begin

Oh Douggg. The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord, the day of vengeance, the day of wrath.

Those 144,000 that are sealed.......are sealed sometime in the 1st 4 seals. We can make that determination from Revelation 14. To understand this you would need to understand that when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are reading events that take place in the 1st 6 seal.

I know you don't understand that.

- which those plagues do hurt to the earth during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation lasts 1335 days.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 5th trumpet, 1st woe, is during the final time, times, half time that Satan will have left. The time, times, half time is roughly 42 months long. So he five months of the tormenting locust creatures does not have to be near the end.

This is incorrect.

My charts are accurate. Makes some chart that reflect your view.

Douggg. I really like your charts. However, they are not correct. But you do a good job.

 

[The Light]

Jesus does not come in the 6th seal event.

Jesus will be seen in heaven, sickle in hand. His intent will be to execute vengeance on those who martyred the great tribulation saints of the 5th seal. That's why the wicked of the world in 6th seal event are terrified.

View attachment 57530

The sign of the Son of man in heaven is lightning from the east to the west.

 

[Douggg]

The sign of the Son of man in heaven is lightning from the east to the west.

Read the 6th seal event in Revelation 6:12-14. Then read Matthew 24:29. It is describing the same shaking of the powers of heaven.

Then read Revelation 6:15-17, for the reaction. What they see is the throne of God, and the Lamb of God.

In Matthew 24:30a, that is the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Which will be Jesus, sickle in hand.

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The verse in Matthew 24:27 about the lightning flashing across the sky, east to west - lightning is not the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Lightning happens every day.

Jesus is saying that His coming will not be secret, as to be somewhere in the desert, nor to some secret room... but as evident as lightning in the sky, i.e. the whole world is going to see Him. The world is going to see Jesus in the sixth seal event, sickle in hand.

 

[Keraz]

Discussion with the confused and deceived is futile.
I laugh at how believers in a rapture to heaven, cannot agree with much at all about it, because it all just made up theories.

 

[The Light]

Discussion with the confused and deceived is futile.
I laugh at how believers in a rapture to heaven, cannot agree with much at all about it, because it all just made up theories.

So you're saying you don't know what happens during a lunar eclipse.

And you can't find the great multitude in heaven during the marriage supper.

 

[Douggg]

Please go to youtube and watch a video of a lunar eclipse.

A lunar eclipse in can make the moon appear reddish. Depending on where a person is viewing it from.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Word is talking about the tribulation of those days which is over with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as proven by Matthew 24. Wrath is the 7th seal.


You THINK the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs after Armageddon. Whereas I KNOW the coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal and is seen additionally in Revelation 14.'

We can be 100% sure this is correct because of the TIMESTAMP of the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Can you see the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Can you see the signs of the sun, moon and stars at the 6th seal?

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

A light should go on..............The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.

Secondly.............It occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days................THE TRIBULATION IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

This is simple logic. I don't know how to make it any clearer. The tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God.



Please provide a scripture where Jesus says that the tribulation is 7 years long

The Word is my doctrine. If you can prove what I'm saying is wrong with scripture, I will change what I believe. But I don't think that will happen. You believe all the things that have been taught all these years........such as the tribulation and wrath are the same thing. I have used scripture to disprove this. Why you can't see it when I continually use scripture to show you, I don't understand.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. There is no question. Stop believing what is taught and look at the scripture. Everything fits together perfectly when you put things where scripture says they go.


The signs of the sun, moon and stars are put in Matthew 24 so we have a timestamp that shows the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th. Until you put things where scripture says they go, you will not understand. Once you put the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 at the 6th seal it is going to mess up your timeline. It won't make sense because you have forced another error because of the error in the place of the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Fix what is 100% accurate based on the Word of God and then figure out your other error.


I put it where it goes based on the Word of God. You think Jesus is coming on white horses in Matthew 24. I see no white horses, I see no Armageddon. I see the signs of the sun, moon and stars that tell us that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.


I have Jesus coming for a harvest in Revelation 14 just as the Word says.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The righteous are reaped and the wicked remain on the earth for the wrath of God................immediately after the tribulation of those days.


It fits perfectly. How could it not fit. We have a timestamp telling us where the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 fits. I don't care what has been taught for years. It's wrong. They haven't even figured out there are two raptures........grain and fruit.

Quote:
"The Word is talking about the tribulation of those days which is over with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as proven by Matthew 24. Wrath is the 7th seal."

Then Jesus was mistaken when he said "then shall there be great tribulation such as has never been seen, and will Never be seen again."
Because after the 3.5 halfway point of the 7 yr trib it is WORSE TRIBULATION.

Sow we know no modern warfare or dictator is as bad as the last half of the seven yr trib.

According to Jesus some trib is coming that will never be matched.
If you insist that there can be no trib in the last 3.5 years then the red flags have possibly blinded you.

Jesus lied in your doctrine because it says the last half ( wrath) is not the unmatched tribulation the Jesus declared