Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[PinSeeker]

Continue with your own private interpretations as you will.​

You mean as if I'm the only one who understands these things as I do? Because... :)

...if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).​

Christ, as the second Person of the triune God, was not dead in sin as we are (or of course were, those of us who have been born again of the Spirit), Zao. If at any point he was, he would have sinned, and we know that He did not. At any rate, though, here you either avoid or miss the point.

synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit),

In the case of Ephesians 2:6, this cannot be true, because Paul is speaking ~ actually writing a personal letter to ~ Gentile Christians in the Church at Ephesus ~ people who have not yet physically died ~ in the past tense:

"...you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (Ephesians 2:1-3; emphasis added)​

So, even while his original readers (those whom he was addressing) were physically alive, they were once dead in their sin. Just in the plain reading of the text, Zao, it is impossible to miss the correlation between being dead in the trespasses in which we once walked and being by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

And then of course comes verses 4 through 10, where he tells them what is now the case, because of what has happened... what God has done, even for Paul himself also:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,.." (Ephesians 2:4-6; emphasis added)​

We are seated with Him in heavenly places because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō), because we have been BORN of His Spirit...

Absolutely, but I think ~ and I'm just guessing here... :) ~ you are sitting in your living room, or possibly in your office at work, or somewhere else here on earth... :) ...and not actually sitting in heaven at the right had of God with Christ. Amirite? <chuckles> So, don't miss those three very important words at the end of verse six: "in Christ Jesus." We are in Christ, Zao. We are not yet with Christ in person, in body, but we are in Christ, by the Holy Spirit. And the same is true in reverse; Christ is ~ right now, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20 ("And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.") ~ with us in spirit, in the Holy Spirit, because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Paul says exactly the same thing in his letter to the Colossians (Colossians 2:12 and 3:1).​

Absolutely. :) Yes, he certainly does not contradict himself. :)

Paul is telling us that our current position in Christ (for those who are still alive in the body) is that we are already bodily raised...

Have you been physically dead, Zao? :) Well no, of course not. So if you have not been physically ~ bodily ~ dead, then how can you possibly have been already physically ~ bodily ~ raised? You... can't. You can't, Zao.

This is why we are sure that we will be raised from the dead bodily, also.

This I agree with, of course. Yes, that brings immediately to mind what Paul writes in Romans 6:5, that "if we have been united with him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His." This is immediately after he writes, "We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Had the Roman Christians to whom Paul was writing to actually been bodily buried? And have we? Well no, that's quite ridiculous, so he must be talking about something ~ something ~ other than the physical. And yes, we will have a physical resurrection like His. We will be raised bodily... that's future tense, Zao, even from you. :) So, Zao, our spiritual resurrection in Christ is the guarantee that our future physical resurrection to eternal life rather than judgment, and then... then... we will be with Christ, no longer only in spirit (because we have been given His Spirit), but in body also. For eternity, of course.

...you assert this without real (actual) proof anywhere in scripture that "resurrection" ever speaks of anything other than the resurrection of the body from the dead

LOL! See directly above. And that's certainly not the first time... :)

(though you for some uncanny reason claim you have and seem to believe you have provided proof).​

<chuckles>

...or make some other foolish and subtle insinuation or question regarding my salvation...

Not intended. I just don't know you personally. And even if I did, there still is some question, because we cannot see or know the heart of another as God can. Certainly, we can take each other at his or her word, but we have to admit that there is at least some element of doubt... Or, maybe the better way to put that is, we cannot really know who is actually a member of God's elect and who is not; only God can know that, and we can know that of ourselves because we have assurance from the Father and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is faith, as defined by the writer of Hebrews in Hebrews 11:1.

(which though you ignorantly believe no one else who reads will notice, yet many have, and will).

Hmm, well, I hope they would not (ignorantly) make the same deduction you have... would not misunderstand me as you have.

Whether you deny it now or not (and you most certainly will deny it because this is how you generally roll, very subtly),

<eye roll> Think what you will; I can't control that. You're certainly your own person. :)

... the wise believers in Jesus can see that you make yourself available to the accuser of the brethren by very slyly and subtly hurling Satan's kind of question that he would want you to ask, using wording that he would want you to use, at anyone who is disagreeing with you - but via the back door of "concern" (or whatever category you choose to hide that sort of question under), and just quickly, and subtly .

There's a difference between the fruit of the Spirit and feigned fruit of the Spirit, and that difference itself is so subtle, that the feigned fruit gets mistaken as the real fruit by most believers. Satan is very subtle and has more than a few willing servants in Christian places. Most of them are very good at feigning the fruit of the Spirit.​

I do not question or subtly ask questions about your salvation or anyone else's...

Hmmm... well again, that's just your perception, and not my intent. Perception is not necessarily reality, Zao.

But, hey, Zao, you're very explicit and make outright proclamations about mine and that of others... :) "Feigned fruit of the Spirit"? "Slyly and subtly hurling Satan's questions"? "Wise believers in Jesus can see that I make myself available to him"? I "don't deal honestly with all Scripture"? More on that last one in a moment, but that's a little puzzling... and a bit hypocritical...

...like yourself, they do not deal honestly with all scripture...

Well, I could say precisely the same of you, Zao. But "dealing honestly" with Scripture is not really the problem.

In your case of course, it's amillennialism causing you to deal with the scriptures the way you do.

Ah, well, not that I agree with the concept of what you say here, but I could say, in the very same vein, that your premillennialism causes you to "deal with Scripture" the way you do.

Amillennialism and other Amillennialists do not cause you to express your "hope" that someone who obviously claims to believe in Christ (like myself) actually does identify himself as a believer in Christ though. There's another source for that.

<chuckles> No, you obviously do identify yourself as a believer in Christ, as I do. That's a good thing; I'm glad of that... :)

Grace and peace to you, Zao.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You do not understand what "nations" the Lord talked about here. God is not talking about geopolitical nations here. Rather the nations here are the Gentiles...The spiritual Gentiles who are spiritually lost.

The word "nation" or "nations" in scripture is also applied to districts in the land of Israel. The "nation of Samaria", for example. "Galilee of the nations" for another. The word "ethne" or "ethnos" simply applies to people groups as opposed to leadership. This can and is applied to Israel directly at times. It depends on the context in scripture as to whether "nation" or "nations" applied to the pagan countries of the world at large or to the nation of Israel itself as it used to be.

Under the New Covenant, Paul wrote that there simply are no classifications segregating the body of Christ into Gentiles or Jews anymore. You are a child of faith, or you aren't.

John in Revelation 12:12 speaks plainly at that time in a warning to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea. The Devil had already come down unto them in great wrath, knowing he had only a "short time" left to deceive the inhabitants of the world before his coming destruction.

This Rev. 12:12 "short time" of Satan's release which had already happened in the world in John's days was the same as the Rev. 20:3 "little season" of Satan's release which followed the end of the millennium. There is no getting around the fact that the millennium had ended before John was writing Revelation 12:12. Satan only had a "short time" left after AD 33's "First resurrection" to operate in this world before he was destroyed. This crushing of Satan under the feet of the saints was promised to happen "shortly" in Romans 16:20 (written around AD 60).

Satan is presently a dead foe, as well as his devils that were to share the same fate along with him.

 

[WPM]

This statement is also true of those who were faithful to God in their lifetimes during the past millennium years from 968-967 BC until AD 33 (when that millennium ended). By faith, they lived and reigned with Christ during that literal thousand years, and shared in the benefits of having Satan's deception of the nations bound during this time period.

Many (but not all of these souls) were martyred for their faithful testimony concerning the word of the Lord and for predicting the coming of the Just One. And there were those who refused to give homage to the Sea Beast when it first began its existence back under Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem.

John also saw others who refused to participate in the use of the mark beginning in 19 BC which the Jewish religious leadership required of everybody coming to worship at the temple (the required use of the Tyrian shekel coin which gave homage to Rome's pagan gods).


These thrones were the 12 apostles of the Lamb to whom Christ granted the authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel during the days of the early church in Jerusalem (Matt. 19:28). In the regeneration when Christ was resurrected in AD 33 and sat on the throne of His glory, He delegated to His 12 apostles this enthroned authority to judge matters in the early Jerusalem church.

Not so! Sin was not paid for in full then. The grave was not defeated then. Hades was not emptied then. It is impossible for that to be true.

 

[WPM]

Except per Amil, this according to some Amils, these in verse 4---the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands---are not alive on the earth. They are in heaven in a disembodied state. There is no way in a million years that Ephesians 2:4-6 is being applied to someone in a disembodied state dwelling in heaven awaiting their bodily resurrection.

BTW, what are you trying to do here? If you look at the bottom of this thread where it lists Similar threads, note this thread---Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality. Replies 461 Views 10K

Wow, 461 replies, 10k views, and that you still failed to prove what you set out to prove, lol, proved by the fact you needed to start yet another thread involving the same topic. I've heard that the 3rd time is a charm, except this would only be the 2nd time. Maybe when you fail to prove what you are setting out to prove per this 2nd one, and then start a third one, maybe that is when you will get lucky and that the third time will be a charm?

Not so! Hebrews 12:22-24 says, “But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

Interestingly, we see “the spirits of just men made perfect,” who I believe correlate with “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.” The beast is simply this world, and his mark is that final mark of reprobation which the damned ultimately receive.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Not so! Sin was not paid for in full then. The grave was not defeated then. Hades was not emptied then. It is impossible for that to be true.

Those conditions you are listing were not included in the Revelation 20 description of the millennium.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The word "nation" or "nations" in scripture is also applied to districts in the land of Israel. The "nation of Samaria", for example. "Galilee of the nations" for another. The word "ethne" or "ethnos" simply applies to people groups as opposed to leadership. This can and is applied to Israel directly at times. It depends on the context in scripture as to whether "nation" or "nations" applied to the pagan countries of the world at large or to the nation of Israel itself as it used to be.

Under the New Covenant, Paul wrote that there simply are no classifications segregating the body of Christ into Gentiles or Jews anymore. You are a child of faith, or you aren't.

John in Revelation 12:12 speaks plainly at that time in a warning to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea. The Devil had already come down unto them in great wrath, knowing he had only a "short time" left to deceive the inhabitants of the world before his coming destruction.

This Rev. 12:12 "short time" of Satan's release which had already happened in the world in John's days was the same as the Rev. 20:3 "little season" of Satan's release which followed the end of the millennium. There is no getting around the fact that the millennium had ended before John was writing Revelation 12:12. Satan only had a "short time" left after AD 33's "First resurrection" to operate in this world before he was destroyed. This crushing of Satan under the feet of the saints was promised to happen "shortly" in Romans 16:20 (written around AD 60).

Satan is presently a dead foe, as well as his devils that were to share the same fate along with him.

You do not make any biblical sense at all! To believe that Satan was bound between 978BC and AD33 and then came o ut for a short season to deal destruction to a physical city Jerusalem only to be crushed by the church?! This doctrine is a joke and IS NOT supported by Bible. Purely flawed preterism doctrine.

 

[WPM]

Those conditions you are listing were not included in the Revelation 20 description of the millennium.

Not true. This is a heavenly scene. It is describing the disembodied saints on high after suffering in this life. That was not possible until Jesus conquered the grave. The victory is shown to come from the first resurrection (Christ's). Do you deny that? What is nore, the Gospel just went out to the nations after that.

Nothing in your doctrine adds up. You have been taught wrong.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You do not make any biblical sense at all! To believe that Satan was bound between 978BC and AD33 and then came o ut for a short season to deal destruction to a physical city Jerusalem only to be crushed by the church?! This doctrine is a joke and IS NOT supported by Bible. Purely flawed preterism doctrine.

Romans 16:20 says that Satan would be crushed by God - not the Roman believers. Satan as the formerly "anointed cherub" was to be turned into ashes upon the earth, as predicted by Ezekiel 28:18-19. Satan's fate was complete destruction so that "never shalt thou exist anymore" after God burned him to ashes on the earth.

This destruction of Satan was predicted to happen "shortly" for the Roman believers in Romans 16:20. Whether you believe this promise or not is immaterial because the promise was for the first-century believers to experience in their own generation.

Revelation 12:12 tells us quite plainly that the literal thousand years of that millennium had already ended before John began to write Revelation. If Satan was to be loosed from his "chain" at the END of the millennium for only a "little season" of renewing his deception, and John 12:12 says that the "short time" of Satan harassing the inhabitants of the earth and sea had already begun, then we can know without a doubt that the millennium was already over by that point in time when John was writing Revelation. This is not rocket science.

(And the millennium years were not "978 BC" until AD 33, it was 968 / 967 BC until AD 33's First resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints.)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Romans 16:20 says that Satan would be crushed by God - not the Roman believers.

True... AT THE CROSS. Not 70 AD.

Satan as the formerly "anointed cherub" was to be turned into ashes upon the earth, as predicted by Ezekiel 28:18-19.

Incorrect. Satan was not anointed cherub at all. You have been brainwashed to believe that. Anyone who wants to know exactly who was an anointed cherub or covering cherub should red the following study:

What are Cherubim?

Satan's fate was complete destruction so that "never shalt thou exist anymore" after God burned him to ashes on the earth.

(laughing). WOW... where does this say in Scripture exactly?

This destruction of Satan was predicted to happen "shortly" for the Roman believers in Romans 16:20. Whether you believe this promise or not is immaterial because the promise was for the first-century believers to experience in their own generation.

Roman believers? SMH...

Revelation 12:12 tells us quite plainly that the literal thousand years of that millennium had already ended before John began to write Revelation.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

No, the verse does not support your nonsense that millennium had ended before John wrote this! Crazy talking.

If Satan was to be loosed from his "chain" at the END of the millennium for only a "little season" of renewing his deception, and John 12:12 says that "short time" of Satan harassing the inhabitants of the earth and sea for a "short time" had already begun, then we can know without a doubt that the millennium was already over by that point in time when John was writing Revelation. This is not rocket science.

Sigh.... You have no clues what the great chains and key represent, don't you? And the purpose of Satan binding? Of course these did not occur in 678BC! You made it up to fit your faulty preterism doctrine by placing a literal years between 678 and 33AD while you see the rest of Revelation 20 as spiritual. Funny.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Not true. This is a heavenly scene. It is describing the disembodied saints on high after suffering in this life. That was not possible until Jesus conquered the grave. The victory is shown to come from the first resurrection (Christ's). Do you deny that? What is nore, the Gospel just went out to the nations after that.

Of course the First resurrection was of Christ (and also the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints). All of those were given the title of the "First-fruits" raised to life again on the same day. During their natural lifetimes on earth, they each had "lived and reigned with Christ" at varying points during the limited timespan of those past, literal thousand years. And John saw the souls of those who had died in the faith in the past, who in their lifetimes had given testimony of the coming of Jesus Christ the "Just One", and in faithfully delivering the word of the Lord God to those to whom they were sent.

But not all of the souls which John saw in Revelation 20:4 were necessarily victims of a violent death by martyrdom. Some died naturally during those millennium years without having given homage to the ancient Sea Beast. And some of these faithful ones who had not worshipped the Sea Beast before the First resurrection in AD 33 may very well have still been alive as John was writing, because they are not referred to as "souls". The language John used doesn't make them all martyrs in Revelation 20:4, or even necessarily dead by then.

 

[3 Resurrections]

a literal years between 678 and 33AD

If you are going to quote me, please do it accurately. The literal past millennium years ended in AD 33 when "the remnant of the dead came to life again" as the "First resurrection" on the same day as Christ arose.

Counting backward in time from the First resurrection in AD 33, a literal thousand years earlier than AD 33 brings us to 968/967 BC, when the foundation stone of Solomon's temple was laid down. Essentially, the millennium years spanned a period when God's design for a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem was in existence.

This was only a symbolic picture portraying the eventual superior New Covenant; the spiritual temple with its "chief cornerstone" being Christ, and the "living stones" of believers being built upon His foundation. This spiritual temple will never be torn down. But temporarily during the millennium, God used the glory of that Old Covenant physical temple Solomon built to squash Satan's ability to keep the nations in deceived ignorance of the God of Israel. The past millennium served its temporary purpose, and was set aside in AD 33 for the superior New Covenant with Christ as our true foundation stone of the spiritual temple not made with hands.

Incorrect. Satan was not anointed cherub at all. You have been brainwashed to believe that. Anyone who wants to know exactly who was an anointed cherub or covering cherub should red the following study:

Ezekiel 28:13-14 writes that the anointed cherub was in Eden, the garden of God. God said that iniquity was eventually found in that anointed cherub. This was Satan in Eden who tempted the original couple. His fate was predicted to Eve. Satan would bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman, quite literally in the crucifixion wounds Christ received, but God would later crush the head of Satan, as promised to happen "shortly" for the Roman believers in Romans 16:20. Why do you think there were no Roman believers that Paul was writing to in that text? Are you serious?

(laughing). WOW... where does this say in Scripture exactly?

Did you not take time to notice or to read the reference I gave? Read Ezekiel 28:17-19. God was going to cast Satan the "anointed cherub" to the ground (just as He cast down to the earth Satan and his devils in Rev. 12:9 on Christ's resurrection day ascension to the Father). Satan as the "anointed cherub which had been in Eden" would eventually be burned to ashes upon the earth in the sight of people. God promised that "never shalt thou exist anymore" after this anointed cherub was reduced to ashes on earth.

True... AT THE CROSS. Not 70 AD.

Satan was not crushed at the cross. You are so wrong on that. At the crucifixion, Satan was enjoying his temporary, petty victory of bruising Christ's heel, as God had predicted to Eve all the way back in Genesis 3:15. It was the resurrection-day ASCENSION of Christ to His Father which "annulled" Satan's ability to accuse the brethren from then on. Satan was then cast out of heaven down to earth for just a "short time" of deceiving the world's inhabitants once more - for the "little season" after the literal thousand-year millennium had just ended.

You seem to be assuming that Revelation must be either ALL symbolic or ALL literal. That is a mistake. There is a blend of the two concepts in John's writings, and in the rest of scripture as well. There are many literal numbers used in Revelation, as well as some symbolic numbers. The thousand years happens to be both literal and symbolic as well.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If you are going to quote me, please do it accurately. The literal past millennium years ended in AD 33 when "the remnant of the dead came to life again" as the "First resurrection" on the same day as Christ arose.

Counting backward in time from the First resurrection in AD 33, a literal thousand years earlier than AD 33 brings us to 968/967 BC, when the foundation stone of Solomon's temple was laid down. Essentially, the millennium years spanned a period when God's design for a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem was in existence.

I did quote correctly because it is still speaking about the same 1,000 year period you alleged. You do not make any biblical sense and is not supported by Scripture. Facts! You were just playing around with 1,000 literal years and then add theories about the remnant (rest) of the dead came to live again. You do not know what Revelation 20:5 talks about.

This was only a symbolic picture portraying the eventual superior New Covenant; the spiritual temple with its "chief cornerstone" being Christ, and the "living stones" of believers being built upon His foundation.

Glad to see that you are getting closer to the Truth. Therefore, the stones (professed believers) of the old testament congregation (temple of his body) fell which is why Christ rebuilt it in 3 days and now being build with the living stones of New Testament believers! DUH!

Nothing was said in Scripture about Preterism fantasy of destruction of the physical temple in 70AD.

This spiritual temple will never be torn down.

Wrong. On Earth, the spiritual temple was built with two groups of people. One professes stones (professed believers) and one True stones (believers). When the old testament spiritual temple with stones falling, it is the all of professed believers that they no longer represents God's kingdom but the kingdom representative was taken from them and gave to another - the New Testament congregation where a remnant of Old Testament Saints has flee to her where Christ is now a chief cornerstone. All of this took place in 33AD.

Nothing to do with physical temple of 70 AD.

But temporarily during the millennium, God used the glory of that Old Covenant physical temple Solomon built to squash Satan's ability to keep the nations in deceived ignorance of the God of Israel.

HUH? That is not what Scrpture talked about. You make it up.

The past millennium served its temporary purpose, and was set aside in AD 33 for the superior New Covenant with Christ as our true foundation stone of the spiritual temple not made with hands.

More flawed speculations.

Ezekiel 28:13-14 writes that the anointed cherub was in Eden, the garden of God. God said that iniquity was eventually found in that anointed cherub. This was Satan in Eden who tempted the original couple.

Incorrect. There was never a "good angel", "anointed cherub", or "covering cherub" to begin with that you tried to apply to SATAN! Read the link! Many people MISUNDERSTOOD about Lucifer and Satan.

The Lucifer that weakens or discomfits the nations is the messenger of the church who has the spirit of Antichrist to usurp God's word and rule by his own means. He's the sinful man, or as 2nd Thessalonians calls him, the man of lawlessness. The ruler who doesn't obey God's law because he has the spirit of disobedience.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

A falling away or separation "from" the truth of God's law to believe Satan's lies concerning what God said. Just as Adam and Eve did in the garden. Here is your Lucifer or falling star. It's the man who sins. The man not of righteousness, but of sin. The messenger (not angel) of the kingdom of heaven who has this spirit of disobedience to believe whatever he wants. You've all seen the Pastors and Ministers of the church who have gone astray teaching for doctrines of God the doctrines of men. This is no new thing.

Lucifer is a word meaning bright star and is further defined by the additional pseudonym of "Son of the morning," or Son of light or dawn which is indicating God's people. God's people are called sons of the dawn because they represent Christ (Revelation 22:16). In this language and context of the king of Babylon having fallen from heaven, it is symbolic of a once fallen bright star. The stars in Scripture are symbols representing the sons (or children, which is the same Hebrew word) of God. Not your angel with feather wings. In other words, his corporate congregation. In the days of Isaiah this was the congregation of Israel, in the New Testament it is the congregation of the New Testament church. Corporately we are all stars or messengers (not angels) of God and just as the children of Israel was subject to falling, so the New Testament children of God are subject to falling. Consider God's very clear declaration of that in Revelation:

Revelation 2:1

• "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;"

The Lord addresses this things to the messenger (not angel) of the church of Ephesus and has a severe warning to the messenger. Please remember that in chapter one Christ Himself interprets the 7 stars of the Church as the 7 messengers of the church. Wiuth this context in mind, notice carefully what the Lord says:

Revelation 2:4-5

• "[Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
• Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Once again, pay close attention to what the Lord specifically interpreted the candlestick as. He said it represented the church. Thus allowing the Scriptures to Interpret themselves, Christ has said to this fallen star, to repent and remember from where he had fallen or else God would remove his church out of its place. These aren't my words, this is what God specifically said in order that we might discern exactly what He is talking about. If we will receive it. Fallen stars don't represent angels, they represent messengers of God's house. The warfare in the kingdom of heaven was not the 3rd heaven, the paradise where God lives, it is in the kingdom of heaven represented on earth, God's congregation. The Kingdom of heaven which God spoke so many parables (Matthew 22:2-14) about during his ministry.

In this scenario of the ruler of Babylon being called Lucifer, a star that had fallen from heaven, it points to the stars or messenger of the Lord's congregation with the spirit of Satan, just as it does in Revelation. Indeed, Babylon is a synonym for the unfaithful church as we've seen before and so it follows perfectly that this King of Babylon would be called a fallen star, and that Babylon would be used to represent the fallen church led by the sinful man, or man of sin ruled over by Satan. The language of Isaiah 14 is so framed to apply to the Babylonian king as he represents a shadow to reveal through him the great fall and destruction of those led by the spirit of Antichrist. A fall of God's congregation at the time of Christ, and a fall near the second coming of Christ when the sinful man dares to rule in God's house "as if" he were God.

His fate was predicted to Eve.

No, fate was made by EVE because of her disobedience! Because it was HER REBELLION SPIRIT that the iniquity was found.

Satan would bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman, quite literally in the crucifixion wounds Christ received, but God would later crush the head of Satan, as promised to happen "shortly" for the Roman believers in Romans 16:20. Why do you think there were no Roman believers that Paul was writing to in that text? Are you serious?

You really misunderstood. Thats all I am saying.

Did you not take time to notice or to read the reference I gave? Read Ezekiel 28:17-19. God was going to cast Satan the "anointed cherub" to the ground (just as He cast down to the earth Satan and his devils in Rev. 12:9 on Christ's resurrection day ascension to the Father). Satan as the "anointed cherub which had been in Eden" would eventually be burned to ashes upon the earth in the sight of people. God promised that "never shalt thou exist anymore" after this anointed cherub was reduced to ashes on earth.

Read the link. Obviously, you did not read. Sad.

Satan was not crushed at the cross. You are so wrong on that.

The Lord judges and I am comfortable with that.

 

[Davidpt]

Not so! Hebrews 12:22-24 says, “But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

Interestingly, we see “the spirits of just men made perfect,” who I believe correlate with “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.” The beast is simply this world, and his mark is that final mark of reprobation which the damned ultimately receive.

What about Revelation 20:4 though, and how Amils like yourself have them reigning in heaven in a disembodied state after they have been martyred and are awaiting the resurrection of their body? How can Hebrews 12:22-24 possibly apply to someone while in a disembodied state?

 

[Davidpt]

You mean as if I'm the only one who understands these things as I do? Because... :)

It seems to me, for example, take Pretrib. There might be millions that believe that doctrine to be true, rather than just one person believing it to be true. This would still be an example of a private interpretation regardless that millions are interpreting it in the same manner. A private interpretation involves doctrines not found in the Bible. Clearly, though Pretribbers disagree of course, Pretrib is not found in the Bible, thus a private interpretation.

And the same is true of Premil vs Amil since both views can't be true. Assuming one of those positions is true, the one that is not true, it is a private interpretation. Except none of us can actually undeniably prove which position is true and that we all won't know that until the 2nd coming happens first. In the meantime we have both views insisting their view is correct. This will no longer be an issue once Christ returns and settles this debate once and for all.

 

[PinSeeker]

…both views can't be true. Assuming one of those positions is true, the one that is not true, it is a private interpretation.

Right, if A and B are opposed (so to speak) to each other, then the only possibilities are that one is right and the other wrong… or that both are wrong.

If ‘private interpretation’ is meant in the sense of, oh, ‘personally accepted,’ or understood in a particular way by one group of persons and differing from another, then fine, but it seems a misnomer to me.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

What about Revelation 20:4 though, and how Amils like yourself have them reigning in heaven in a disembodied state after they have been martyred and are awaiting the resurrection of their body? How can Hebrews 12:22-24 possibly apply to someone while in a disembodied state?

Two questions to this for you, David. Actually three…

1. Who is your King? Is Jesus not your King, right now? This is rhetorical, actually, and I would submit to you that you, having been born again of the Spirit and raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2) are reigning in Christ right now.

2. Is it not possible to you that saints who have gone on before (died) and are with Jesus in a disembodied state could also be reigning in Christ since their death from this world and actually with Him right now?

3. What does it mean for Christ to reign/rule ~ and us in and with Him ~ to you? This may be part of the issue…

Grace and peace to you.

P.S. I believe I spoke to Revelation 20:4 some time ago. No response?

 

[Davidpt]

I'll cut to the chase on the other two... :)

Priests: We are called to intercede for our family before God; Jesus, as our High Priest, intercedes constantly for us even now.

Kings: God has firmly written into the nature of every person to lead, provide for, and defend ~ especially spiritually ~ those in his or her charge; and this is especially true for men with their families.

In short:

• We are prophets if we confess His Name, (Matthew 10:32, Romans 10:9-10, Hebrews 13:15; we do so in this life and in our disembodied state)
• We are priests if we present ourselves as living sacrifices of thankfulness to Him (Romans 12:1, 1 Peter 2:5-9; we do this also in this life and in our disembodied state)
• We are kings if we fight with a free and good conscience against sin and the devil in this life (Galatians 5:16-17, Ephesians 6:11, 1 Timothy 1:18-19), and hereafter reign with Him eternally over all creatures (Matthew 25:34, 2 Timothy 2:12).

On this side of life, of course.

But Revelation 20:4 involves saints that were physically alive then martyred, thus in a disembodied state. And what you submitted above that I quoted, none of that could possibly be relevant to someone in a disembodied state.

What I'm wanting Amils to deal with here, are when saints are in a disembodied state, as to how they can be priests of God and Christ while in that state, since things like that only make sense in the land of the living back on earth, not in heaven in a disembodied state?

If Amils have martyred saints continuing to reign a thousand years in heaven in a disembodied state, Amils can't cherry pick in verse 6 and insist this part applies to them while in that state, as does this part, but not this part, though.

IOW...

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This part---Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---and this part---on such the second death hath no power---and this part---and shall reign with him a thousand years--is applicable to saints in a disembodied state. But this part---they shall be priests of God and of Christ--isn't.

Once again, it is ludricrous to think what you submitted that I quoted in your post, that that is also applicable to someone in a disembodied state. Therefore, since verse 4 is involving saints in a disembodied state per Amil, and that verse 6---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ---can't be applied to that---but that Amils still insist martyred saints are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, in heaven, there is something wrong with that picture.

How can Revelation 20:4 still be involving a disembodied state once they live, thus the first resurrection, when being in a disembodied state is not compatible with---they shall be priests of God and of Christ? Keeping in mind, being priests of God and Christ is meaning when they live and reign a thousand years with Christ.

 

[Davidpt]

P.S. I believe I spoke to Revelation 20:4 some time ago. No response?

In the next post after yours here, #77, I finally try and deal with some of that. I guess better late than never.

 

[PinSeeker]

On this side of life, of course.

You mean on this side of glory, I believe. Well, I disagree. :)

…what you submitted above that I quoted, none of that could possibly be relevant to someone in a disembodied state.

I disagree. :)

What I'm wanting Amils to deal with here, are when saints are in a disembodied state, as to how they can be priests of God and Christ while in that state, since things like that only make sense in the land of the living back on earth, not in heaven in a disembodied state?

Well, as long as you keep saying it can only make sense while living here, then you make it into an insurmountable obstacle. I mean, it’s not, really, because that’s not really the case.

I thought I explained it pretty well before, but maybe not. Maybe the thing to do is to ask you a couple of leading questions…. Okay, so two questions for you:

1. Referring to Revelation 20:4 specifically, what does it mean to be a priest? What does a priest do, David? What is the function of a priest? And keep in mind that Christ is our High Priest, so what is He doing right now for us, on our behalf (seated at the right hand of God as He currently is)?

2. What does it mean to be a priest of God and Christ? And I’m asking this question, I’m really focusing on “of God and Christ.” What does that mean to you? How do you understand that, David?

If you get these right... :)..., then, really, it is impossible to not believe that being a priest of God and Christ is the case for both those Christians here on earth not yet physically deceased and in those who have gone on before and are now in their disembodied state and with Christ Jesus.

If Amils have martyred saints continuing to reign a thousand years in heaven in a disembodied state, Amils can't cherry pick in verse 6 and insist this part applies to them while in that state, as does this part, but not this part, though.

IOW...

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This part---Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection---and this part---on such the second death hath no power---and this part---and shall reign with him a thousand years--is applicable to saints in a disembodied state.

Disagree. Or actually, I agree, but disagree that it’s applicable only to saints in a disembodied state. :)

But this part---they shall be priests of God and of Christ--isn't.

Hmm, I think I’ll refer you back to the questions I asked of you above, particularly the second one.

Once again, it is ludricrous to think what you submitted that I quoted in your post, that that is also applicable to someone in a disembodied state.

Maybe not so much… :) Answer the questions above, David.

Therefore, since verse 4 is involving saints in a disembodied state per Amil, and that verse 6---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ---can't be applied to that---

I think your “therefore” is misguided by the premise. :)

Amils still insist martyred saints are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, in heaven,

Well, during the “thousand years”… through the balance of the God’s millennium….

there is something wrong with that picture.

Well, I understand you currently think there is…

How can Revelation 20:4 still be involving a disembodied state once they live, thus the first resurrection…

See this is an issue. An amillennialist (a “good” amillennialist anyway) would say to you, David ~ given you are a Christian ~ that you have already experienced, in this life, the first resurrection, and you are blessed because of it. At the very least, David, you believe yourself to be blessed, no?

…being in a disembodied state is not compatible with---they shall be priests of God and of Christ?

But is is very much not incompatible with being a priest of God and Christ. Again, question 2 above…

Keeping in mind, being priests of God and Christ is meaning when they live and reign a thousand years with Christ.

During, and for the balance of the millennium….

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Zao is life]

What about Revelation 20:4 though, and how Amils like yourself have them reigning in heaven in a disembodied state after they have been martyred and are awaiting the resurrection of their body? How can Hebrews 12:22-24 possibly apply to someone while in a disembodied state?

You're correct of course. Their arguments imply that the letter to the Hebrews was talking to people in heaven.

Which, of course, is not the case. The letter to the Hebrews was addressed to people alive in their bodies who had not yet died, and it was they who were told they had come to Mount Zion.

The "church of the first-born who are written in Heaven" in verse 23 is not talking to people who are already in heaven, but to those who are written in heaven, which is an obvious reference to the Book of Life. We do not need to have died in the body to have our names written in the Book of Life, and we do not need to have died in the body in order to have come to the heavenly Mount Zion, where our High Priest is seated.

The more Amillennialists imply by the things they say that Christ's Spirit was quickened by the Spirit of Christ, rather than Christ's body having been quickened (and hence, raised) through and by the quickening of the Spirit of Christ (because as it is written, death could not hold Him);

and the more they try to imply that our spirits are "raised from the dead" through the quickening of the Spirit of Christ, rather than the truth, i.e that the reason that we can be said to be (already now) seated with Him in heavenly places, is because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō), because we have been born of His Spirit, who dwells in us,

the more they try to imply all this, the more I become aware of just how lame all their arguments are.

One of them even went so far as to imply in his last response to me in this thread that Paul's teaching on this implies that Christ was dead in His (own) sin (or that I was implying it, or something - being characteristically vague about who he was claiming implied it)

- and this Amillennialist said this, forgetting that the only reason Christ died, is because our sin was laid on Him.

Paul, the apostle of Jesus, taught us the following:-

"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.
​

--- The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you ---.​

Paul says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit),

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Paul is clearly saying that we are seated with Him in heavenly places because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō)

- and we know that all this is because we have been born of His Spirit, who dwells in us.

Paul also says the exact same thing in his letter to the Colossians (Colossians 2:12 and 3:1).

The quickening and raising from the dead is never being applied to the human spirit in the New Testament, but to the body. We are BORN of the Spirit of God, not "raised from the dead, spiritually".

Of course, Amillennialism relies on its false theology regarding this, because without this false teaching regarding what it means to be quickened and raised, and why being "quickened and raised by the Spirit" does not equate with being born of the Spirit, but is talking about being quickened and bodily raised with Christ BECAUSE we have been born of the Spirit Amillennialism falls - which is why Amillennialists will never admit their error. At least, not while they continue to choose to remain faithful to their beloved theology / theologies, rather than to Christ's truth.

copy @PinSeeker​