Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[grafted branch]

You don't think they are physically DEAD? If not physical why does John write they were beheaded?

Your reference above is speaking about the physically dead having died in unbelief. His father will be buried by most likely members of their own household that are also spiritually dead. Christ is anxious for His servants in faith to go preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to give spiritual life to those who are spiritually dead.

Matthew 8:21-22 (KJV) And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

They are beheaded when Messiah was cut off. Just as the New Testament church is the body of Christ, the old covenant was dead once Christ died and those under it are seen as beheaded.

Those raised in Matthew 27:52-53 were under the old covenant, they were believers who are beheaded, the rest of the dead (those who remained under the old covenant) were blind in part. Once the Son of man was revealed in Luke 17:30 they were no longer dead, the veil is lifted and they live.

As far as Matthew 8:21-22, yes they were the rest of the dead if they held to the old covenant after the cross.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why is it then that Amils generally rarely use both testaments to prove Amil...

Hmm, I think your premise here is... generally untrue. :) Certainly for me it is; it seems that would be obvious to you from my last post to you. If you would apply what you say here to me, well then I would submit to you, David, that you haven't read many of my posts on this subject, if any... not closely, anyway...

, and that unless Premils bring up OT passages first, Amils don't have much to say about any of those OT passages except to insist Premils are misinterpreting them?

Ah, well, again, I don't think that's always true, not nearly. But the disagreement almost always starts on Revelation 20, pretty much, so it's just a matter of engaging in the conversation there, or, generally speaking, meeting them where they are and then going with their... stream of consciousness, would say. Like Julie Andrews sang in The Sound of Music, let's start at the very beginning... :) And the "beginning" seems to pretty much always be wherever premillennials, especially with dispensational premillennials, want that beginning to be. :) And that's the problem, to a very large extent. They don't realize it, but they start at the end, form their views on what they see there, and work backwards, which... is backwards. It's okay to do that, really (work backwards), but we have to let most everything previous inform/color where we started in that case, rather than the other way around. From my avatar, you can easily tell, I'm sure, that I'm a golfer. In golf, we don't tee off from the green and work back to the tee. :) and we don't start on the 18th hole (or the 19th! :)) and work back to the first. Oh, wait; that may give some folks some trouble, me speaking symbolically like that... :) Okay, okay, but seriously, not to insult anybody's intelligence, but that's a big part of the issue.

And, you know, that's the issue with just John's Revelation specifically, too. If Revelation is clear ~ and it is; John himself (and really God, as all Scripture is God-breathed) says it is (Revelation 1:3), why do so many people have trouble with it? Why is it so controversial? It gives folks trouble because they approach it from the wrong end. Suppose we start by asking, “what do the bear’s feet in Revelation 13:2 stand for?” I say that if we start with a detail, and ignore the big picture, we are (inadvertently) asking for trouble. God is at the center of Revelation (Revelation 4:5), We must start with Him and with the contrasts between Him and His satanic opponents. If instead we try right away to puzzle out details, it is in effect like using a knife by grasping it by the blade instead of the handle; we are starting at the wrong end. Rather, Revelation is a picture book, not a puzzle book. We shouldn't try to puzzle it out. We shouldn't become preoccupied by isolated details, but rather become engrossed in the story. Praise the Lord. Cheer for the saints. Detest the Beast. Long for the final victory.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Why must those who died in faith, already having everlasting life through Christ come to life AGAIN? The spirit in them through the Spirit from Christ gives us blessed assurance that though our flesh will die, we shall live forever!

The point is these particular beheaded souls are not in Christ in life. You keep insisting they are, against the very words John wrote. They ruled and reigned after physical death, not prior to physical death. These souls were judged after they were beheaded, not beheaded because of some judgment. You are applying soteriology to these beheaded souls when it should not apply. Then turning the first resurrection into your brand of soteriology. These souls lived in this order: They had a physical life. They were beheaded to avoid receiving the mark. They were only souls without a body. They stood as the dead being judged before thrones. The judgment was pronounced as the first resurrection, which was a physical body. They then lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Even you insist the dead have to have a physical resurrection in order to die again. I don't see that, because they stand as the dead, only souls, just like those beheaded souls you claim don't have a physical body after being judged. If those beheaded are not given a body, do they also have to wait a thousand years for the first resurrection? If you claim the first resurrection is a physical body for the rest of the dead, why only symbolize it as spiritual for other souls? I mean that is how the first resurrection is written as in the verse after the thousand years.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Seems the first resurrection is what is the judgment given in this verse:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

Those sitting on those thrones were granted the authority to give those beheaded souls the first resurrection, which would be a permanent incorruptible physical body. That would allow them to rule and reign on earth with Christ for a thousand years. They would be the camp of the saints at the end of the thousand years, that is the goal of an attack.

I get that amil all want to make this about spiritual life. But you all are missing the point the first resurrection happens after physical death.

 

[Timtofly]

That is NOT true, and saying it is makes Christ to be a liar! We have His promise that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! Since we NEVER die, why would you believe the martyred saints must have been bodily resurrected and physically alive or they would not be alive at all?

That is why they already have a God given permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. They can never be without a physical body, even if this one returns to dust. You (and all others) are calling Jesus a liar by stating a single future resurrection. If no one is dead in Paradise at this moment, they have both a soul and physical body. Because the dead only have a soul, and no physical body.

Now you say they are one corporate spiritual body. That just takes away their individualness. You claim there are no individuals in heaven at that point. All the redeemed are in Paradise. And they are in no form of death, because being dead would mean not having a physical body. That is still a form of death. Being made alive is that the entire, soul, body, and spirit are all alive and fully functional. Not a single part missing.

 

[Marty fox]

This is why I asked you if you believed we reign with Christ in life Marty? You answered yes, and I agreed. We reign in life with Christ during the same time that Satan has been bound. There is not a a thousand years for Satan's binding, and another thousand years when believers before physically dying live and reign with Christ. They are the same period of TIME symbolized a thousand years.

Matthew 24 was spoken to first century Christian disciples of Christ, pertaining to things that shall come as the CHURCH takes the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the earth. Though 70 AD is the historical date of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and Christ speaks of some things His disciples alive then will have to face, the discourse is written for His Church, that is Christians of every generation to come after the first generation to the end of the age. Christians are "this generation" that shall not pass until all these things shall be fulfilled.

1 Peter 2:7-10 (KJV) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Yes of course but my question to you is do the saints alive on earth or in heaven still reign after satan is released? The time between satans release and the end of our world

 

[Davidpt]

Most do not even seem to notice those thrones set up and judgment given. Those beheaded souls had to face the judgment, because they were not redeemed and judged with Christ on the Cross. This was not an awards judgment. This was receiving the first resurrection or being made alive status, which means the restoration of body and soul.

What one should be doing in this case, which is what I'm doing, is using Daniel 7 to shed more light upon when Revelation 20:4 is meaning.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The same time period meant here is obviously the same time period involving Revelation 20:4. And that we have something else that helps us determine where this time period fits. Meaning the following.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Undeniably, these events precede the events involving verse 22. Now all we need to do is look for an era of time that matches verse 21 and that it has to precede the era of time involving Revelation 20:4 since it is involving the same era of time verse 22 in Daniel 7 is involving. Obviously then, it clearly matters where one places the beginning of the thousand years since what is recorded Daniel 7:21 has to precede the beginning of the thousand years.

If we place the beginning of the thousand years in the first century around the time of the cross or soon thereafter, were there any events prior to the cross that fit what Daniel 7:21 records? Of course not. We can cross this off the list that the beginning of the thousand years began 2000 years ago since there is zero that can explain Daniel 7:21 at the time.

And since the beginning of the thousand years can't be meaning 2000 years ago since it would contradict Daniel 7:21 in that case, what should that be telling us then? It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that should be telling us.

 

[Timtofly]

Well I do think the thousand years represents an unknown period of time (at least unknown until it occurred). That period of time was as yesterday or as a watch in the night, with both of these being much less than a thousand years.

It has not occurred yet. That is the whole point. Revelation was written decades after you think the millennium started. It was never written as already being fulfilled, not even the messages to the 7 churches, as they still had to receive the book themselves to even read what was written in Revelations about them.

 

[Davidpt]

Hmm, I think your premise here is... generally untrue. :) Certainly for me it is; it seems that would be obvious to you from my last post to you. If you would apply what you say here to me, well then I would submit to you, David, that you haven't read many of my posts on this subject, if any... not closely, anyway...

Fair enough. I probably should have said that in such a way where it didn't come across as if it applies to every single Amil. All I know is, for example, Zechariah 14. Apparently, every single thing recorded in that chapter is meaning after Christ was born. Which means it has to fit something after Christ was born. Premils are usually the ones that initially bring this chapter up since Premils feel that ch supports Premil. Rarely see Amils initially bringing it up in order to help prove Amil. But why not since what is recorded in that chapter is meaning after Christ is born? Do those events support Amil or Premil, that is the question? And since Premils have no problem with wanting to discuss this ch but that Amils appear to avoid that ch for the most part unless Premils bring it up first, why is that so? It's not like Zechariah 14 is not involving the NT era. Clearly it is.

 

[rwb]

They are beheaded when Messiah was cut off. Just as the New Testament church is the body of Christ, the old covenant was dead once Christ died and those under it are seen as beheaded.

Those raised in Matthew 27:52-53 were under the old covenant, they were believers who are beheaded, the rest of the dead (those who remained under the old covenant) were blind in part. Once the Son of man was revealed in Luke 17:30 they were no longer dead, the veil is lifted and they live.

As far as Matthew 8:21-22, yes they were the rest of the dead if they held to the old covenant after the cross.

The Son of man has already been revealed when He came to earth a man, gave His life a ramson for sin, and defeated death. It is not that the Old Covenant nation did not know Him, rather in unbelief they rejected Him. Even those His coming was according to what was written in the prophets. When Christ comes again and it becomes clear that He is the Son of man coming again in the clouds, it will be too late for the dead to know Him for life. They will indeed live again to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Since they shall not be found among the living because they are of the DEAD, they shall be cast into the LOF that is the second death.

The rest of the dead, are still the DEAD!

 

[Davidpt]

Well I do think the thousand years represents an unknown period of time (at least unknown until it occurred). That period of time was as yesterday or as a watch in the night, with both of these being much less than a thousand years.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

What some of you need to get a clue about before you decide how to intepret that passage, is that it has to first be understood like such---For a LITERAL thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Now what does it mean? Does it still mean the same thing you have been taking it to mean? There is zero reason to not take the thousand years in the literal sense here. As if there is no such thing as a literal thousand years. As if God is unable to comprehend a literal thousand years of earth time even though He was the one that created earthly time, such as hours, days, months, years, for humans to experience.

 

[rwb]

Yes of course but my question to you is do the saints alive on earth or in heaven still reign after satan is released? The time between satans release and the end of our world

Is there a reason to believe that saints won't still be reigning with Christ when Satan is set free? While I do believe that during the time for Satan's little season none shall be saved. I don't believe the faith of all who are alive during this age shall be lost, or no longer reign with Christ while alive on this earth. Christ asks a rhetorical of what He will find when He returns, He says, "I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8 (KJV) I believe that during this time of Satan's little season the Kingdom of God is complete, and most who are destined to be in the Kingdom of God will have already physically died or been martyred for faith. Since our life in Christ is everlasting, those alive in this time will not be abandoned, and before the wrath of God by fire comes down upon the whole world, these faithful saints, reigning with Christ in this life will first be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[rwb]

What one should be doing in this case, which is what I'm doing, is using Daniel 7 to shed more light upon when Revelation 20:4 is meaning.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The same time period meant here is obviously the same time period involving Revelation 20:4. And that we have something else that helps us determine where this time period fits. Meaning the following.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Undeniably, these events precede the events involving verse 22. Now all we need to do is look for an era of time that matches verse 21 and that it has to precede the era of time involving Revelation 20:4 since it is involving the same era of time verse 22 in Daniel 7 is involving. Obviously then, it clearly matters where one places the beginning of the thousand years since what is recorded Daniel 7:21 has to precede the beginning of the thousand years.

If we place the beginning of the thousand years in the first century around the time of the cross or soon thereafter, were there any events prior to the cross that fit what Daniel 7:21 records? Of course not. We can cross this off the list that the beginning of the thousand years began 2000 years ago since there is zero that can explain Daniel 7:21 at the time.

And since the beginning of the thousand years can't be meaning 2000 years ago since it would contradict Daniel 7:21 in that case, what should that be telling us then? It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that should be telling us.

Judgment came with Christ when He came with the spiritual Kingdom of God, during this age/time/era/day symbolized a thousand years. Man is judged by His Word and Spirit. He that is judged to be in unbelief until they die, shall be judged again at the GWTJ, and cast into the LOF that is the second death.

 

[grafted branch]

It has not occurred yet. That is the whole point. Revelation was written decades after you think the millennium started. It was never written as already being fulfilled, not even the messages to the 7 churches, as they still had to receive the book themselves to even read what was written in Revelations about them.

If Revelation was written after 70AD, what was the hour of temptation that came upon the whole world that the church at Philadelphia was kept from? What event that happened after 70AD and within their lifetime qualified as coming upon the whole world?

 

[grafted branch]

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

What some of you need to get a clue about before you decide how to intepret that passage, is that it has to first be understood like such---For a LITERAL thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Now what does it mean? Does it still mean the same thing you have been taking it to mean? There is zero reason to not take the thousand years in the literal sense here. As if there is no such thing as a literal thousand years. As if God is unable to comprehend a literal thousand years of earth time even though He was the one that created earthly time, such as hours, days, months, years, for humans to experience.

I see Psalms 90:4 as such, a thousand years in Gods sight is as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night in our human sight.

Meaning God sees it as a thousand years while we see it as one day (yesterday).

 

[grafted branch]

The Son of man has already been revealed when He came to earth a man, gave His life a ramson for sin, and defeated death. It is not that the Old Covenant nation did not know Him, rather in unbelief they rejected Him. Even those His coming was according to what was written in the prophets. When Christ comes again and it becomes clear that He is the Son of man coming again in the clouds, it will be too late for the dead to know Him for life. They will indeed live again to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Since they shall not be found among the living because they are of the DEAD, they shall be cast into the LOF that is the second death.

The rest of the dead, are still the DEAD!

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.



When did people flee while Jesus was on earth?

 

[Davidpt]

Judgment came with Christ when He came with the spiritual Kingdom of God, during this age/time/era/day symbolized a thousand years. Man is judged by His Word and Spirit. He that is judged to be in unbelief until they die, shall be judged again at the GWTJ, and cast into the LOF that is the second death.

Yet, this ignores that the events recorded in Daniel 7:21 have to chronologically precede the events recorded in Daniel 7:22. You have to deal with that first, that there has to be an era of time involving what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 before there can be an era of time involving what is recorded in Daniel 7:22. Can you show, thus convincingly prove, that what Daniel 7:22 is involving, that it is not what Revelation 20:4 is involving? Thus they are totally unrelated?

 

[Marty fox]

Is there a reason to believe that saints won't still be reigning with Christ when Satan is set free? While I do believe that during the time for Satan's little season none shall be saved. I don't believe the faith of all who are alive during this age shall be lost, or no longer reign with Christ while alive on this earth. Christ asks a rhetorical of what He will find when He returns, He says, "I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8 (KJV) I believe that during this time of Satan's little season the Kingdom of God is complete, and most who are destined to be in the Kingdom of God will have already physically died or been martyred for faith. Since our life in Christ is everlasting, those alive in this time will not be abandoned, and before the wrath of God by fire comes down upon the whole world, these faithful saints, reigning with Christ in this life will first be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes me too I agree, but what you just said proves that the reigning carries on after the binding thus you agree with me the reigning and the binding ends at different times

 

[rwb]

Yet, this ignores that the events recorded in Daniel 7:21 have to chronologically precede the events recorded in Daniel 7:22. You have to deal with that first, that there has to be an era of time involving what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 before there can be an era of time involving what is recorded in Daniel 7:22. Can you show, thus convincingly prove, that what Daniel 7:22 is involving, that it is not what Revelation 20:4 is involving? Thus they are totally unrelated.

The era/age/time/day, symbolized a thousand years is what the prophetic words of Daniel pertain to. I've already told you this before, and you ignore anything said that does not fit the doctrine you desperately try to prove.

The prophecy begins with Michael standing up for his people. This is shown to have been fulfilled when Christ was born. Michael and his angels stood up for his people, waging war in heaven against the dragon and his angels. The dragon and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to the earth. Why were they cast out of heaven, because he accused believers day and night before God in heaven. The birth put an end to that when He was born and the dragon was not able to destroy Him then. Through Christ's birth all of the prophecy of what He would do when He came would now be fulfilled, and the accuser could no longer accuse faint hearted saints as he had before.

Next Daniel's prophecy tells us that after the man child, Christ was born the time had come when everyone found written in the book shall be delivered during a time a trouble such as never before and shall never be again. That has been the experience of those who are spiritually in the Kingdom of God as the Church on earth is sent unto all the nations of the world with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

During the beginning of this time many that have died in faith awake to everlasting life. We see this fulfilled after the resurrection of Christ when graves were opened and as spiritual body of believers they came out of the graves and went to the heavenly city Jerusalem above, where a multitude of the heavenly hosts witnessed their arrival there.

Some shall also be resurrected to shame and everlasting contempt. That too shall come to pass at the end of this time symbolized a thousand years. They shall never be part of the spiritual body of Christ in heaven, but shall live again in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds

During this time after Michael stood up for his people, some will be wise and shall shine as the brightness of the firmament as they turn many to righteousness. IOW as they build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, and all who believe shall be numbered with the righteous.

Finally Daniel was told this prophecy shall be to the time of the end, when people will run to and fro and knowledge of the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be increased.

This covers Dan 12:1-4. After this Daniel wonders when shall be the end of these wonders, and was told "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Then Daniel is told:

Daniel 12:10 (KJV) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

This time period shall be from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. We can argue about what this is referring to, but what is important to understand is that it is prophecy that is fulfilled in the age/time following the war in heaven when Satan was cast out and bound to the earth. That is this age of time, symbolized a thousand years.

Daniel 12:11 (KJV) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The last period of time prophesied is a blessing for he that waits and comes to the thousand three hundred five and thirty days. This time too whatever you wish to argue it might pertain to also falls within and perhaps points to the end of this same time that has come since Michael stood up for his people, and the spiritual Kingdom of God through the birth of Christ began.

Daniel 12:12 (KJV) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The final verse tells us that Daniel should go his way and rest because these things shall not be till the end. When did the end begin according to what is written in the New Testament? Finally Daniel was told that he would receive "thy lot at the end of the days." IMO immortal & incorruptible physical life on the new earth where he would be physically with the LORD forever.

Daniel 12:13 (KJV) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

How can Daniel 7 be reconciled with what is written here so there is no contradiction or inconsistency?

 

[rwb]

Yes me too I agree, but what you just said proves that the reigning carries on after the binding thus you agree with me the reigning and the binding ends at different times

I don't believe our reigning with Christ ends while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth. But Satan is set free after the thousand years expire. The thousand years during which we live and reign with Christ before we physically die.

 

[PinSeeker]

Fair enough. I probably should have said that in such a way where it didn't come across as if it applies to every single Amil.

No problem. I mean, yeah, not every Amill knows everything... like... I do... I'm... kidding. :cool: Somewhat. :)

All I know is, for example, Zechariah 14. Apparently, every single thing recorded in that chapter is meaning after Christ was born. Which means it has to fit something after Christ was born.

Well of course. I would actually say long after Christ was born... :) I would say this about Zechariah 14... Probably going a little further than you bargained for but:

Zechariah 13, generally speaking is about the removal of the partial hardening that is now on Israel, as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26; it is about the future cleansing of God's people and the turning of a large number of Jews to their Messiah just before the last day, And then Zechariah describes this last day in more detail in chapter 14. This is perhaps the most symbolic chapter of his entire work. Using vivid imagery, Zechariah presents an apocalyptic vision that points us to the end of days while also alluding to realities that occur throughout the history of God's people. Clues to the symbolic nature of this chapter are found in the references to the Lord placing "his feet" on the Mount of Olives (v. 4) and the rivers of living water that flow to the east and to the west from Jerusalem (v. 8). Since God is spirit (John 4:24), we know that He does not literally possess a physical body with physical feet. Furthermore, in the prophetic books, including Zechariah, rivers of living water depict new spiritual life and the final restoration of all creation metaphorically, i.e., Ezekiel 47:1-12 and Zechariah 13:1. So, the text points us to a cataclysmic final battle between the enemies of God's people and the Lord and His saints, and through this war, a remnant will survive (Zechariah 14:1-2). Just when the people of God seem to be on the verge of losing the war, the Lord and His heavenly army will intervene to save the day (v. 5). One cannot help but think of the upheaval at the consummation that will result in the final redemption of the people whom our Creator has reserved for Himself and the transformation of all creation into the new heavens and earth. The prophet is saying that God will bring renewal to all of His people's inheritance. Since this will "continue in summer as in winter," we see that this life is eternal. Unlike the seasonal rivers that only flow at certain times of the year in the Promised Land, these living waters will never fail to issue forth and do their work. Finally, "the LORD will be king over all the earth" (v. 9). All people will recognize His full sovereignty and there will never be rebellion against Him again.

I would submit to you, David, that the events described in Zechariah 14 are at the close of the millennium of Revelation 20. :)

How do you like them apples? :)

Premils are usually the ones that initially bring this chapter up since Premils feel that ch supports Premil.

Sure.

Rarely see Amils initially bringing it up in order to help prove Amil.

But that doesn't mean they won't or can't... :)

But why not since what is recorded in that chapter is meaning after Christ is born?

Sure.

Do those events support Amil or Premil, that is the question?

Well, yes, that's a big one. :)

And since Premils have no problem with wanting to discuss this ch but that Amils appear to avoid that ch for the most part unless Premils bring it up first, why is that so?

I think ~ well, at least from my perspective ~ because dealing with more than one, um, difficult passage at a time can be rather unwieldy; it's not Zechariah 14 in particular.

It's not like Zechariah 14 is not involving the NT era. Clearly it is.

Agreed. But it's really several things, depending on what kind of premillennial believer the person is.

Grace and peace to you.