Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Mr E]

Yes, but this many is recorded nowhere to my knowledge of physically alive humans living in Jerusalem of Old witnessing a physical resurrection of the dead. However there is evidence of many in heaven seeing them as they ascend up to heaven a spiritual body of believers. This seems odd since the physical resurrection of Lazarus was widely known and recorded.

Revelation 5:11-12 (KJV) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Daniel 7:10 (KJV) A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

It's not recorded as physically happening, because it wasn't physical.

As on Mt Tabor-- Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John. Scripture doesn't have to tell us that they weren't physical beings, it just says they showed up. Similarly-- Jesus himself tells us that John was the awaited Elijah-- not physically.... John was John- physically, but in some other sense, John was Elijah (according to Jesus).

Without even knowing what he was really saying-- that is, without awareness of the significance of it-- Peter says-- should we put up three tents? The "tents" were already there.

 

[grafted branch]

GB, they are not resurrected to be alive on this earth after the thousand years AND Satan's little season. The dead are raised to physical life again to eternally die in the LOF that is the second death. They've already physically died once, so they shall be revived to life, or recover life, be alive again to eternally DIE and never live again.

But you are not addressing the fact that Revelation 20:5 says they don’t live until thousand years finished. When are the thousand years finished? Before or after the little season?

I think you know it’s before little season but then you also are correctly insisting that the dead aren’t raised until the last day. Can you see why there is a problem? Revelation 20:5 can’t be referring to the dead that are raised on the last day but you continue to insist it is, without giving an explanation of why it says after the thousand years are finished and not after the little season.

 

[Mr E]

I haven't read anything you said above. You are on my ignore list. I just haven't pressed the ignore buttton.

Bravo! Imagine having to click a button in life, for every person you pass in the street and choose not to engage. It's ridiculous to think that we have to click something, or put someone on some list, to 'take a pass' here.

 

[rwb]

I agree it doesn’t make sense, and there is also Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Clearly there is a point where the dead rest and that rest continues from henceforth. I’m not sure what the Amill do with this verse, maybe they claim being a priest is not work.

Why do you suppose John does not write of the martyred saints of Rev 6 as being witnesses for Jesus, as we find in Rev 20? Have you ever considered maybe it's because they had NEVER heard that name, because that name could only be known after Christ was born and "they called His name Jesus"? Since these saints lived and died before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, they knew Him only as a Messiah/Redeemer who would come to save them.

Rev 14:6-20 is a symbolic depiction of all that shall come to pass upon the earth as the Gospel begins to be proclaimed unto all the earth, to the end of TIME, when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the symbolic thousand years has ended. Verses 1-5 depict 144,000 of Old Covenant faithful saints who are now seen in heaven after being sealed (Rev 7) by the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Mr E]

Yes I agreed with what you says happens here except for when the reigning ends see post #111

The misunderstanding of the thousand years comes from a more basic misunderstanding of what it means to reign with Christ. It doesn't mean, sitting beside him on a throne. It means serving alongside him. To be in his service, like a soldier is a servant, or the way a priest is (supposed to be) a servant. You serve as priest and king...

To think of this as ruling, is a complete misunderstanding of the role of a ruler.... Any good king recognizes himself as a servant. The revelation of Jesus Christ after all, is a review of the life of Christ-- the annointed one. The story of the spirit alive in the man and life of Jesus.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.

 

[rwb]

But you are not addressing the fact that Revelation 20:5 says they don’t live until thousand years finished. When are the thousand years finished? Before or after the little season?

I think you know it’s before little season but then you also are correctly insisting that the dead aren’t raised until the last day. Can you see why there is a problem? Revelation 20:5 can’t be referring to the dead that are raised on the last day but you continue to insist it is, without giving an explanation of why it says after the thousand years are finished and not after the little season.

Satan is not loosed until the thousand years have finished. He cannot have his little season before he is loosed. Satan's little season follows after the thousand years representing TIME. God's wrath against Satan and all who follow him put an end to Satan's little season. Immediately before the fire of God's wrath comes down out of heaven, the faithful saints still alive at this time will be caught up with the saints resurrected from the graves and changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible. The DEAD (unbelievers) shall also be resurrected in the same hour that is coming to stand before God at the GWTJ. After the fire has consumed all that is left and this earth has passed away, there will be a new heaven and new earth where the saints who had been caught up to meet the Lord in the air will come down with Christ as the holy city, new Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. No more time, all things have been made new.

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[Davidpt]

Are these martyrs still under the altar since Christ's blood has been shed to make atonement for sin, and conquering death by His resurrection to life again? None could go to heaven until after the first advent of Christ. Which is why these Old Covenant faithful saints are shown under the altar, symbolizing they died in faith, believing the Law that pointed them to Christ, and the prophets who foretell of the Messiah/Redeemer would come to save them.

If they are not now in heaven, why does John write of martyrs for their faith who "have lived and reigned with Christ" before they were martyred now as souls alive in heaven? Their fellowservants were Israelites of faith, and their brethren is Christ, the promised Messiah who was to come. The little season they were told they must wait IMO is from the beginning of the ministry of Christ at His baptism when He was anointed through the Spirit, to His cross and resurrection. Then before Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, He first descended into the place of the dead to set the captives free, taking them with Him to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Let's try this angle then though it is obviously futile the fact you are an Amil, thus the following contradicts Amil not agrees with it instead. For you or any other Amil to admit that though, that is never going to happen, at least not in this age anyway.

IMO the following is pertaining to reigning with Christ a thousand years, meaning what I have underlined. And assuming I am correct to connect that with that, it is then a matter of determining when that is meaning.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Determining the timing of this is real simple. We simply use Christ as the pattern as to how and when this happens. The text says that because Christ overcame, He was then set down with His Father in His Father's throne. Which comes first? He overcomes then is set down with His Father in His Father's throne? Or He is set down with His Father in His Father's throne before He overcomes first?

Something else to factor in here is this. Before this was true---and am set down with my Father in his throne--did Christ have to bodily rise from the dead first? IOW, change from a corruptible(mortal) body to an incorruptible(immortal) body? When what I have underlined is meaning how could that possibly be meaning before one overcomes first, before one has changed from a a corruptible body to an incorruptible body, when none of that was true in Christ's case?

And finally, the fact Revelation 3:21 involves 2 thrones, Christ's throne and the Father's throne, when does Scripture indicate Christ sits in His throne? How about the following, for one?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

This is when the overcomers per Revelation 3:21 are initially granted to sit with Christ in His throne. Keeping in mind that only Christ is worthy of being set down with His Father in His Father's throne, thus 2 thrones in that verse.

 

[grafted branch]

Why do you suppose John does not write of the martyred saints of Rev 6 as being witnesses for Jesus, as we find in Rev 20? Have you ever considered maybe it's because they had NEVER heard that name, because that name could only be known after Christ was born and "they called His name Jesus"? Since these saints lived and died before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, they knew Him only as a Messiah/Redeemer who would come to save them.

Rev 14:6-20 is a symbolic depiction of all that shall come to pass upon the earth as the Gospel begins to be proclaimed unto all the earth, to the end of TIME, when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the symbolic thousand years has ended. Verses 1-5 depict 144,000 of Old Covenant faithful saints who are now seen in heaven after being sealed (Rev 7) by the Spirit of Christ.

Well, I think the souls under the altar, at the fifth seal are Old Testament saints. Those in Revelation 20:4 are beheaded for the witness of Jesus.

I thought you mentioned in a previous post that Revelation 20:4 was people who were martyred through out all history.

Do you think those in Revelation 20:4 are only New Testament believers or are they all martyred believers?

 

[Mr E]

There is only one thousand year period of time mentioned only in the Revelation. The thousand years symbolically represents TIME from the first advent of Christ until the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no longer. Satan is bound during the same period of TIME the Church is sent out to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that the Kingdom of God will be complete as Gentiles enter into the Kingdom of God when they hear the Gospel and believe in Christ for everlasting life.

You could argue this. You could think that there is only one period mentioned, but in doing so you would also have to admit that it's mentioned more than once. Maybe you have concluded that it is actually only one, one-thousand-year period. OR, you could, like @Marty fox conclude that it is not one period, mentioned more than once, rather it is separate periods altogether. Both views are entirely plausible.

It really doesn't matter, because these "periods of time" are not physical earth-years to be counted, are they? Are these events you read about in Rev 20 an actual chronology of events occurring on earth? No. So you have to set the context as heavenly (spiritual) events that are not speaking of earthly (physical) moments.

Let me ask this-- Since the moment of his death and resurrection (two thousand years ago) --- where has Jesus been (and) -- what has he been doing? Has he been reigning? Did he accomplish anything on the cross?

 

[rwb]

It's not recorded as physically happening, because it wasn't physical.

As on Mt Tabor-- Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John. Scripture doesn't have to tell us that they weren't physical beings, it just says they showed up. Similarly-- Jesus himself tells us that John was the awaited Elijah-- not physically.... John was John- physically, but in some other sense, John was Elijah (according to Jesus).

Without even knowing what he was really saying-- that is, without awareness of the significance of it-- Peter says-- should we put up three tents? The "tents" were already there.

I don't believe it was a literal or physical resurrection of the dead from the graves, but a spiritual body of believers who lived and died waiting for the promised Messiah/Redeemer to come and set their spirit free.

We know the disciples were shown a 'vision' of Moses and Elijah.

Matthew 17:9 (KJV) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

[Timtofly]

But again I don’t think physically dead people are in view in Revelation 20:4. I could be wrong but I would need to see an explanation that fits with the rest of the dead living during Satans little season.

How can you say they are not physically resurrected in Revelation 20:4, but they have to be physically resurrected after the 1,000 years? No one has to be physically resurrected. Some are. All the OT redeemed were physically resurrected at the Cross. God did not just physically resurrect some and left the others in death.

You see Revelation 20 as there needs to be one last resurrection, but that is just not so.

We know the hour of physical resurrection already started when Lazarus came out of that grave. Lazarus left Abraham's bosom and never returned. Abraham's bosom was a state of physical death.

A resurrection is not back into Adam's dead state. A resurrection is into Christ's incorruptible permanent physical body state. The same body Jesus always had that died on the Cross and was resurrected back into life, 3 days later. Since the Cross no one has to wait, not even 3 days to enter that God given physical body. They are certainly not waiting for some future Trumpet to sound.

The next time we see souls waiting for a physical resurrection is Revelation 20:4. They were beheaded during a 42 month period while others were given a mark. So those at the start of that 42 month period had to wait 41 months. Those beheaded half way through had to wait 21 months. If some lasted all the way to the last month before being beheaded, they did not have to wait the whole 42 months.

The normal reading of Revelation 20 is that no soul is ever resurrected at all during the thousand years. Also those beheaded will never die during those thousand years. They were already physically dead before the thousand years started. So you cannot have them physically dying at all during those thousand years. As they were already dead and given life after that physical death, prior to the start of the thousand years.

The straightforward reading of the text with no interpretation tells us the first resurrection is not even available during the entire thousand years. Those beheaded were given the first resurrection before the thousand years started. The rest of the dead had to wait until the thousand years were completed. But it does not say they would receive it then. It says they could not receive it until. The interpretation is that over the thousand years, their chances would get even smaller than they would have been, since waiting in torment and death, would not increase their chance at accepting God's gift of salvation. Some of those dead have been already waiting for 4,000 years. And they still have another 1,000 years to go. Most think John is just talking about those who took the mark, or worshipped Satan. Not necessarily. Those with the mark and many others at the Second Coming were already tossed into the LOF. The rest of the dead include all those born from Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth since the Flood. We know that all those destroyed at the Flood ended up in sheol. There was no resurrection back to life between Noah and when Lazarus was brought back after spending 4 days in Abraham's bosom.

Since Lazarus those redeemed have not gone as souls into Abraham's bosom waiting for a physical resurrection. All in Christ have entered Paradise with physical bodies. They are seated with Christ. They have on clothes and waive palm branches. They serve God day and night in that heavenly temple. They have been with the Lamb for almost 2,000 literal years. The rest of the dead have been waiting for thousands of years, and will wait another thousand years after the Second Coming.

 

[Mr E]

Ok, in that case let’s look at Relation 20:5 again.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest <3062> of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The word rest is <3062> which means the rest, the remaining. In other words the remainder of the initial group.

As you and I both agree, John sees an initial group of people with two subgroups. You have these groups as believers who spiritually reigned with Christ during their lifetime and were martyred, and the second group (remainder) as those who didn’t live and reign with Christ during their lifetime, and they are called the rest of the dead.

The vast majority of Christians die without being martyred. However, per your view, they would’ve live and reign with Christ but can’t be considered “the rest of the dead” even though they would be physically dead.

Why aren’t dead believers considered “the rest of the dead” along with dead unbelievers? Why are most Christian’s left out or not considered as a third subgroup?

Revelation 20:5 says they live after the thousand years but other verses suggest they aren’t resurrected until after Satans little season. This is a conflict that’s I’m still not sure how you are resolving.
Do the rest of the dead come to life again after the thousand years are finished or after the little season is finished? It can’t be both, it has to be one or the other. At what point do they live again?

Let's look closely at that....

There are two distinct groups 'of the dead' -- the initial group as you refer to it-- which are those who were cut off (killed) because they were witnesses (contemporaries) of the life of Christ in Jesus time.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection; they blessed that have part therein.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The question isn't when is the first resurrection, but when was it? We don't have to speculate, because it was recorded.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


These-- resurrected ones who came out of their graves (like Moses and Elijah on Mt Tabor) were those who live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

You could argue this. You could think that there is only one period mentioned, but in doing so you would also have to admit that it's mentioned more than once. Maybe you have concluded that it is actually only one, one-thousand-year period. OR, you could, like @Marty fox conclude that it is not one period, mentioned more than once, rather it is separate periods altogether. Both views are entirely plausible.

It really doesn't matter, because these "periods of time" are not physical earth-years to be counted, are they? Are these events you read about in Rev 20 an actual chronology of events occurring on earth? No. So you have to set the context as heavenly (spiritual) events that are not speaking of earthly (physical) moments.

Let me ask this-- Since the moment of his death and resurrection (two thousand years ago) --- where has Jesus been (and) -- what has he been doing? Has he been reigning? Did he accomplish anything on the cross?

The thousand years symbolize TIME that began with the advent of Christ and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. Trying to split this symbolic time to fit our doctrine makes a mockery out of this symbolic TIME. How can this symbolic TIME said to begin when Satan is bound, that does not end until he is set free, not be the same TIME the Church is sent unto all the world to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God? The purpose for which Satan is bound was to prevent him, through deception, from holding the nations (Gentiles) in bondage to fear of death. This power Satan had ended by Christ's cross and resurrection. That is how Christ symbolically bound Satan, making it literally possible through the miracle of life after death that Christ demonstrated, for the nations to hear and believe the Gospel for everlasting life.

 

[Mr E]

The thousand years symbolize TIME that began with the advent of Christ and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. Trying to split this symbolic time to fit our doctrine makes a mockery out of this symbolic TIME. How can this symbolic TIME said to begin when Satan is bound, that does not end until he is set free, not be the same TIME the Church is sent unto all the world to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God? The purpose for which Satan is bound was to prevent him, through deception, from holding the nations (Gentiles) in bondage to fear of death. This power Satan had ended by Christ's cross and resurrection. That is how Christ symbolically bound Satan, making it literally possible through the miracle of life after death that Christ demonstrated, for the nations to hear and believe the Gospel for everlasting life.

When was Satan bound?

Was he not defeated with the victory of the lamb?

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


The victory of the lamb over death, is directly tied to the living and reigning with him.... (Rev 5)

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And it already happened. Two thousand years ago. -- Or a thousand-years twice, if you insist.

Rev 9-- There was one to whom was given power and authority, and with that he held the key to the bottomless pit (where Satan is bound). The one who binds him there for 'periods' of time, is the same one who looses him for a little season.

And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


It would help if you could get your head around the idea of "purpose" for all these things. To do that, understand 'the seasons' and to do that, think in terms of nature. Springtime and harvest. Planting and sowing and growing, of seeding and weeding, of pruning and gathering. Really do it. Make the effort to understand these things.

 

[Davidpt]

Are these martyrs still under the altar since Christ's blood has been shed to make atonement for sin, and conquering death by His resurrection to life again?Are these martyrs still under the altar since Christ's blood has been shed to make atonement for sin,

How could they not be the fact this little season they are told to rest is paralleling a little season back on earth involving the martyring of their brethren? Regardless where one wants to place the timing of this little season back on earth, it is obviously meaning after Christ already died, already rose, and already ascended to heaven. Therefore, when they are crying out for vengeance, it parallels when their brethren are being martyred back on earth. IMO, this little season can only be meaning one thing, the 42 month reign of the beast per Revelation 13. And that this 42 month reign is what precedes the 2nd coming, therefore, placing this 42 month reign in the final days of this age, or at least it ends in the final days of this age. Which means the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, and that John during the time of seeing these visions indicated that was a future event.

 

[grafted branch]

Let's look closely at that....

There are two distinct groups 'of the dead' -- the initial group as you refer to it-- which are those who were cut off (killed) because they were witnesses (contemporaries) of the life of Christ in Jesus time.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection; they blessed that have part therein.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The question isn't when is the first resurrection, but when was it? We don't have to speculate, because it was recorded.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


These-- resurrected ones who came out of their graves (like Moses and Elijah on Mt Tabor) were those who live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 are called “many” which means many(high in number); multitudinous, plenteous, "much"; "great" in amount (extent).

In Acts 2:29 David was both dead and buried at that time so he wasn’t one of many that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53.

How is it then that the “rest of the dead” in Revelation 20 doesn’t include David?

 

[Davidpt]

Let's look closely at that....

There are two distinct groups 'of the dead' -- the initial group as you refer to it-- which are those who were cut off (killed) because they were witnesses (contemporaries) of the life of Christ in Jesus time.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection; they blessed that have part therein.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The question isn't when is the first resurrection, but when was it? We don't have to speculate, because it was recorded.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


These-- resurrected ones who came out of their graves (like Moses and Elijah on Mt Tabor) were those who live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Even though I'm not Amil I still agree that the first resurrection is meaning Christ's, and to have part in it simply means to rise from the dead bodily and receive an immortal body the same way Christ did.

 

[Mr E]

One thing that proves martyrs aren't co reigning in heaven with Christ sitting on thrones, is the following.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Common sense says that while they are resting a little season in heaven, a little season is happening on the earth involving the martyring of their brethren, that should be killed as they were. Which then means every time one of their brethren is martyred back on earth they join these resting in heaven, not sitting on thrones co ruling with Christ instead. IOW, this does not depict anyone sitting on thrones ruling with Christ in heaven---under the altar.

Is God unfair or something? These souls under the altar who have been martyred don't get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ as well, but are told to rest a little season instead, while Amils back on earth who are martyred during this little season, that instead of them joining the other martyrs resting when they enter heaven, they get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ? Even though sitting on thrones is not literal, that is beside the point since this shows God is not being fair here if some martyrs are told to rest and other martyrs get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ instead.

Rev 6:9 -- the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held...

It's the same language (and the same group) referenced in Rev 20. >>> I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...

The ones sitting on the thrones able to judge are not those cut off souls. They are the ones sitting in judgment of those souls. They are those from a previous season, who rest awhile as a kind of reward or sabbath, or fallow. His principles apply always-- even to Adam-- the dust of the earth.

Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

 

[Davidpt]

Those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 are called “many” which means many(high in number); multitudinous, plenteous, "much"; "great" in amount (extent).

In Acts 2:29 David was both dead and buried at that time so he wasn’t one of many that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53.

How is it then that the “rest of the dead” in Revelation 20 doesn’t include David?

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

It is clear as to when OT saints bodily rise. It happens at the end of the days involving the 1290 and 1335 days. Apparently, making the 1335th day the last day of this age. How could it not be? To place these 1290 to 1335 days in another era of time is ludicrous since it contradicts Daniel 12:13.

 

[Davidpt]

Rev 6:9 -- the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held...

It's the same language (and the same group) referenced in Rev 20. >>> I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...

The ones sitting on the thrones able to judge are not those cut off souls. They are the ones sitting in judgment of those souls. They are those from a previous season, who rest awhile as a kind of reward or sabbath, or fallow. His principles apply always-- even to Adam-- the dust of the earth.

Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

Unfortunately, I don't really know what you mean here. Therefore, I can't agree nor disagree since I first need to grasp what you are meaning before I can decide whether you are right or not.