Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[grafted branch]

That's not my view, it is what the Bible tells us in Jo 5:28-29 and 1Cor 15:51-53 and Christ repeatedly tells us in John 6 that those who die in faith shall be raised up on the last day. There are none physically resurrected to never die again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day.

Ok, in that case let’s look at Relation 20:5 again.



Revelation 20:5 But the rest <3062> of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



The word rest is <3062> which means the rest, the remaining. In other words the remainder of the initial group.

As you and I both agree, John sees an initial group of people with two subgroups. You have these groups as believers who spiritually reigned with Christ during their lifetime and were martyred, and the second group (remainder) as those who didn’t live and reign with Christ during their lifetime, and they are called the rest of the dead.

The vast majority of Christians die without being martyred. However, per your view, they would’ve live and reign with Christ but can’t be considered “the rest of the dead” even though they would be physically dead.

Why aren’t dead believers considered “the rest of the dead” along with dead unbelievers? Why are most Christian’s left out or not considered as a third subgroup?

No it doesn't! It says the rest of the dead shall live again until the thousand years of time is finished. That will be in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

Revelation 20:5 says they live after the thousand years but other verses suggest they aren’t resurrected until after Satans little season. This is a conflict that’s I’m still not sure how you are resolving.
Do the rest of the dead come to life again after the thousand years are finished or after the little season is finished? It can’t be both, it has to be one or the other. At what point do they live again?

 

[Zao is life]

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

All one needs to do is interpret the rest of this chapter in light of this part, meaning pertaining to a resurrection. Clearly, nothing in these above verses are being applied to the here and now every time someone becomes born again. This context is involving literally bodily rising from the dead. None of it is pertaining to a resurrection in the sense Amils take the first resurrection in Reveation 20 to be involving.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


None of this is remotely meaning in the sense Amils take take the first resurrection in Reveation 20 to be involving. It's clearly involving a bodily resurrection. Amils of course likely have no disagreements thus far.


Now we get to this context involving verses 35-50, keeping in mind, up until this point there is zero involving a resurrection the way Amils are taking the first resurrection in Reveation 20 to be involving.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


This is so crystal clear that I can't even believe some think there is another way to interpret this rather than the proper way? Look what verse 42 says. Now compare that to verses 51-57. Are some going to argue that those verses aren't involving a bodily resurrection either since verse 44 allegedly isn't?

Verse 42 says this--It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption

Verse 52 and 53 says this, the same thing verse 42 says---For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So, how is it then, that in verse 42 and 43 the context is a bodily resurrection, but when we get to verse 44 now all of a sudden the context is no longer involving a bodily resurrection, it is involving a spiritual resurrection in the same sense Amils take the first resurrection in Revelation 20 to be meaning?

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This is simple. This part--It is sown a natural body--is pertaining to this---It is sown in corruption. And this part---it is raised a spiritual body---is pertaining to this---it is raised in incorruption---the very same things verses 51-57 are involving.

Clearly then, I fully agree with you about verse 44 because Paul and the Bible fully agrees with you as well.

Amils insist they are interpreting the first resurrection per Revelation 20 correctly but can't even interpret 1 Corinthians 15:44 correctly if they are applying that in the same manner they are applying the first resurrection per Revelation 20. Clearly, 1 Corinthians 15:44 is not pertaining to passed away saints dwelling in heaven in a disembodied state, it is instead referring to passed away saints that rise from the dead bodily, and that they receive a spiritual body that can never die. Except none of that happens until the last trump. Verse 44 is obviously being applied to the last trump, not the here and now instead. But what do we Premils know, right? After all, we supposedly are unable to interpret the first resurrection per Revelation 20 correctly, so it's no wonder then that we are confused about 1 Corinthians 15:44 and misinterpret it as well. Except we are not confused about verse 44 nor are we misinterpreting it.

I agree 100% with everything you say above. It's so obvious from the passage, and the context that 1 Cor.15:44 is talking about the resurrection of the body, not 'spiritual' resurrection.

The New Testament uses the word psychḗ interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction which is consistent throughout the New Testament between the body [sōma] and the soul [psychḗ].

1 Corinthians 15:44:
"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

Besides this, the following makes it abundantly clear that it's not talking about 'spiritual' death and 'spiritual' resurrection, but the death of the body and the resurrection of the body:

1 Cor.15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

There is even more in the same passage that let's us know that it's talking about Adam's bodily death and the last Adam's bodily resurrection:

20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

26 The last enemy made to cease is death.​

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

God created Adam body and soul and breathed everlasting life into him. His purpose for creating Adam is stated in Genesis 1:26-28, Psalm 8:4-8 and Hebrews 2:6-9. The death of Adam (that God humbled Himself to become a man and die and rise again from death to undo), has always been God's enemy. This is the reason why Jesus came, bore our sins in His own body on the cross when He died, then died, and rose again. This is the gospel, and they nullify the gospel, they who believe in a 'spiritual' resurrection from death.

This is also why they ignore the second part of Hebrews 2:8, which states, ""But now (of this present time) we see not yet all things having been put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every son."

Ignoring parts of the Word of God and twisting the meaning of other parts, they nullify the coming reality of the Son of man and last Adam's reign on the earth to fulfill God's purpose, turning His Kingdom into a purely 'spiritual' Kingdom and the resurrection from the dead into a 'spiritual' resurrection (as though Christ's resurrection from the dead was not a bodily resurrection).​

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The resurrection of the body from the dead is the only "resurrection" from death that the New Testament ever talks about, using the words anástasis (THE resurrection), égersis (THE bodily resurrection of Christ - the word only appears once in the New Testament, in Matthew 27:53); anístēmi; and egeírō.

anístēmi and egeírō are not always used in reference to the resurrection: Sometimes they are used for rising up (as in "get up!"), or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep (in a normal sense), but wherever they are speaking about rising or being raised from death, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body.

When the New Testament talks about quickening of the Spirit, it's linked to being born of the Spirit, and it uses the word zōopoiéō, and we are told that it occurs with (syzōopoiéō) Christ's quickening, who was quickened while His body was dead:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but quickened | made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma]; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

Then Christ was egeírō - raised from the dead bodily:

"You turned from idols to God in order to serve the living [záō] and true God, and to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised [egeírō] from the dead, Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thess.1:9-10).

Whenever that same word záō is used in reference to the life of humans, it's always talking about life in the body - humans as being alive in the body.
​

Záō: Alive in the Body

zōopoiéō: Given eternal life, body, mind|soul & spirit

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[rwb]

So when the thousand years ends and satan is released do you not think that Jesus and us still reigns?

Our life together with Christ shall never end! As a spiritual body of believers in heaven we still spiritually live with Christ there. When we are bodily raised and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible who or what will there be to reign over? All will be made new on the new earth, where there will be no evil or death. Ruling and reigning is given for this earth where sin and death still exist. We rule and reign over the Kingdom of God in this life that the Kingdom of God might be complete, as the saints engage in this great spiritual warfare against Satan and the enemies of Christ. Once the Kingdom of God is complete what would be the purpose of ruling and reigning over our fellow saints? When Christ is with us on the new earth He will "wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Jesus alone will then be our King, and He shall reign over His Kingdom forever! Saints on the new earth won't need another ruler to reign over us, for He is the King of kings and there is no other.

 

[rwb]

The vast majority of Christians die without being martyred. However, per your view, they would’ve live and reign with Christ but can’t be considered “the rest of the dead” even though they would be physically dead.

Why aren’t dead believers considered “the rest of the dead” along with dead unbelievers? Why are most Christian’s left out or not considered as a third subgroup?

John shows us the full embodiment of saints that shall be in heaven. Those of vs 4 I agree are those who died as martyrs for their faithfulness to Christ. They physically died but are still alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there. But what about all the other people who lived and died during the same time period these did? What becomes of them? John says they are the rest of the dead who were not martyred for the faith, they died in unbelief and after death they do not belong in heaven with those who were faithful unto death. Once they have physically died without faith their opportunity to be part of the first resurrection to overcome the second death has passed, they have died in their sins and will only live again to stand before God at the GWTJ.

These who have died and are not part of the spiritual body of believers in heaven shall NEVER be of the first resurrection. When John writes in vs 5 "this is the first resurrection" he is talking about those of vs 6 who are "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." When the Bible was written there were no chapters and verses. We know those have died and are of the first resurrection cannot be among the DEAD.

Here in vs 6 John is writing of all who shall keep the faith until they physically die who shall also reign with Christ during the same period of time symbolized a thousand years. They are not among the martyred, but they shall still be alive in heaven belonging to the spiritual body of Christ there after they die, because they too shall physically die in faith.

With the martyred saints and those who shall also physically die in faith, John has shown us the full embodiment or innumerable multitude that shall be a spiritual body of believers in heaven after physical death.

As for the rest of the DEAD, they shall be among the full embodiment of the DEAD who shall be gathered after the thousand years expires and Satan has had his little season. ALL of the DEAD then shall be called from the graves to stand before God at the GWTJ. Since their names shall not be found in the Book of life, the DEAD shall be cast into the LOF that is the second death.

In this chapter John has shown us the fates of not only all who shall be saved, but also the fate of all who remain in unbelief. This chapter includes all of humanity. Those who live and die in faith, never spiritually die, because their spirit returns to God alive through the Spirit of Christ in them. Those who live and die without faith shall have their day before the GWTJ and they shall be no more.

Revelation 20:5 says they live after the thousand years but other verses suggest they aren’t resurrected until after Satans little season. This is a conflict that’s I’m still not sure how you are resolving.
Do the rest of the dead come to life again after the thousand years are finished or after the little season is finished? It can’t be both, it has to be one or the other. At what point do they live again?

The DEAD NEVER live in the flesh again on this earth! They will be resurrected in their mortal, corruptible flesh once more to stand before God at the GWTJ and be cast into the LOF that is the second death. The judgment day for ALL of the DEAD shall not be until after the thousand years has expired, AND Satan has had his little season.

 

[Mr E]

the reigning is spiritual not physical

You don't have one, without the other.

"On earth as it is in heaven" is the principle at work.

 

[Mr E]

The spirits of humans (the sons of Adam) are spirits. They do not have their own bodies. That would be a separate creation to the body, soul and spirit that God created Adam with.

Adam was created body and soul, and the Spirit of God breathed eternal life into him.

In the beginning elohim created the heavens and the earth....

....And elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So elohim created man in his own image, in the image of elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

The sons of God are spirits. The ones created in the likeness, or image of those spirit-sons of God (elohim) are their bodies.... and these human bodies are us-- vessels, containers, houses, tents, coverings... for those spirits. Temporary dwellings, for beings that are eternal by design. We are clay models. We are formed from the dirt-- idols.

 

[Mr E]

What I am saying is that we live and reign with Christ spiritually now weather we are physically dead or alive

Revelation 20:4 is just showing that we still reign even after physical death

It's a mistake to completely separate the two. Alive spiritually is one thing, yes. Alive physically is another, yes. But the two are not separate, rather they are interconnected. It's much more like this>>>

Picture a house.... that is the physical representation. When that house is inhabited, you can think of it as being properly utilized for its intended purpose. If that house is abandoned, it might become a place for others-- squatters, for whom it was never intended. Yet, though they are not owners of the house, they occupy and possess the house, and if the owner returns, they will have to be removed by him and for him to restore the house.

No house divided can stand.

 

[Mr E]

Humans are created with a body + spirit (breath of life) called a living soul.

The soul is the story of the journey/experience of the spirit in the body. It's his story, experienced in you. This story is what is a soul, or a soul journey, or a soul experience--- by all names-- a human life, or the span of a life. It is not the life itself, but the sum of experiences, and the record of such. The "life" itself is not bound by the physical body, but in spirit, 'the life' exists before and endures beyond the physical container. It's not different than the clothes you wear today. They don't define you and if you shed them and put on a different set tomorrow-- YOU haven't changed. It's still the same (spiritual) you, albeit in a different set of clothes.

 

[Mr E]

How I see it is that there are two sets of thousand years one the reigning and one the binding. Once again we don’t reign because satan is bound we reign because Jesus reigns thus there has to be two sets of binding they aren’t a coincidence.

The reigning and the binding happened at the cross and resurrection as shown in Revelation 20:2 & 4.

The binding ends when satan is released as shown in Revelation 20:7 before his final assault on the church, his defeat, the end of our world and him being cast into the lake of fire. After this is the great white throne judgement as shown in Revelation 20:11-15

The reigning ends at the end of our world after satans defeat when the rest of the dead are raised at the great white throne judgement revelation 20:5 confirms it as we see them in verse revelation 20:12-13

A thousand years of Satan bound.

A thousand years of the souls who were cut off (those who lost their lives) for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God-- to live and reign with Christ.

And when that thousand years has ended, Satan will be loosed for a little season.

It's one thing to count the years, but can you recognize the seasons?

 

[Davidpt]

So when the thousand years ends and satan is released do you not think that Jesus and us still reigns?

What about the following, for example?

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

To be consistent, the fact verse 5 says the saints shall reign for ever and ever, why are you not also applying that to your Revelation 20 thousand year theory? IOW, the saints reigning with Christ a thousand years means for ever and ever.

Obviously, this can't fit Revelation 20 since the thousand years expire once satan is loosed. Except you don't have it expiring for the saints as well, but have it expiring for them after satan's little season, which still doesn't agree with what Revelation 22:5 records. Just stick to the text then, because no matter how you might want to reason it, you are never going to get it to agree with Revelation 22:5 unless you insist them reigning a thousand years with Christ equals reigning for ever and ever, thus the thousand years has no end, it is meaning all eternity.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

It would be better to believe what this verse says and go by what it says, that there is only one thousand year period, and when it expires, that thousand year period is in the past for both satan and the saints. IOW, what ever era of time the thousand years are involving, that era of time has been entirely fulfilled when satan is loosed. Keeping in mind that satan deceives the nations again after the the thousand years, except you have him doing that during the thousand years if you still have the thousand years continuing for the saints. You are contradicting things left and right here. Just stick to the text then and quit adding nonsense to it.

 

[rwb]

The soul is the story of the journey/experience of the spirit in the body. It's his story, experienced in you. This story is what is a soul, or a soul journey, or a soul experience--- by all names-- a human life, or the span of a life. It is not the life itself, but the sum of experiences, and the record of such. The "life" itself is not bound by the physical body, but in spirit, 'the life' exists before and endures beyond the physical container. It's not different than the clothes you wear today. They don't define you and if you shed them and put on a different set tomorrow-- YOU haven't changed. It's still the same (spiritual) you, albeit in a different set of clothes.

Yes, I've heard it said that mankind is trapped in these physical bodies destined to death from the beginning, through the fall. Mankind, created in the likeness and image of God comes from the spirit in us, and the spirit that has received the Holy Spirit of Christ when they are born again shall never die. The reason mankind must be spiritually born again/from above is because the spirit image and likeness of God became natural and of the earth when man listened to the voice of evil and disobeyed God. From that moment it is only the voice of evil that unsaved mankind hears, because that is the voice that is now natural to them. It is through being born again of the Spirit that man's spirit, being supernaturally changed is able to hear the voice of Christ through His Gospel proclaimed that we might believe and have everlasting life.

 

[grafted branch]

John shows us the full embodiment of saints that shall be in heaven. Those of vs 4 I agree are those who died as martyrs for their faithfulness to Christ. They physically died but are still alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there. But what about all the other people who lived and died during the same time period these did? What becomes of them? John says they are the rest of the dead who were not martyred for the faith, they died in unbelief and after death they do not belong in heaven with those who were faithful unto death. Once they have physically died without faith their opportunity to be part of the first resurrection to overcome the second death has passed, they have died in their sins and will only live again to stand before God at the GWTJ.

So if I have this correct, only martyred believers are seen reigning, the rest of the dead are unbelievers, and un-martyred believers are then mentioned as blessed if they have part in the first resurrection but are not included as the rest of the dead even though that word means the remaining part of the dead.

Then the unbelieving “rest of the dead” are said to live after the thousand years are finished in Revelation 20:5 but we know that they have to really not come to life on this earth but be resurrected after the little season.

RWB, these are the types of things that have made me abandon the Amill view, I’m good with Christ being the first resurrection and us currently living and reigning with Christ but for me there are too many other problems with making it fit into Revelation 20.

And we haven’t even begun to look at other verses such as Revelation 6:9-11 where the fifth seal martyrs are told to rest vs those in Revelation 20:4 who are priests and reigning, not resting.

I think if the word “beheaded” was seen as figurative some of the issues could be resolved but we each have to go with where the Spirit leads us.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What evidence do we have that Paul read those particular revelations of Apostle John of Patmos?

‘What evidence do we have that Paul read those particular revelations of Apostle John of Patmos?’
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
We may say “no. That is not evidence Paul read the Revelation of Jesus Christ” but imo Paul not only read “those particular revelations of Apostle John of Patmos” but “for I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it” …to to me Paul knew the Revelation of Jesus Christ also shown unto the Apostle John of Patmos, being taught of Him…the Revelation.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's at the second coming. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Wow. Thank you. Good points you make here. Odd then is to discount those things you shared in the OP…we must also first discount Paul as having not read so …what does Paul know about the revelations of the apostle John of Patmos? The only thing is (Imo) it is not the revelations of the apostle john of Patmos…but instead The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Jesus Christ to reveal …like for example Peter “blessed are you Peter for man did not reveal this to you, but My Father which is in heaven.” What is “this” revealed?

 

[Davidpt]

So if I have this correct, only martyred believers are seen reigning, the rest of the dead are unbelievers, and un-martyred believers are then mentioned as blessed if they have part in the first resurrection but are not included as the rest of the dead even though that word means the remaining part of the dead.

Then the unbelieving “rest of the dead” are said to live after the thousand years are finished in Revelation 20:5 but we know that they have to really not come to life on this earth but be resurrected after the little season.

RWB, these are the types of things that have made me abandon the Amill view, I’m good with Christ being the first resurrection and us currently living and reigning with Christ but for me there are too many other problems with making it fit into Revelation 20.

And we haven’t even begun to look at other verses such as Revelation 6:9-11 where the fifth seal martyrs are told to rest vs those in Revelation 20:4 who are priests and reigning, not resting.

I think if the word “beheaded” was seen as figurative some of the issues could be resolved but we each have to go with where the Spirit leads us.

One thing that proves martyrs aren't co reigning in heaven with Christ sitting on thrones, is the following.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Common sense says that while they are resting a little season in heaven, a little season is happening on the earth involving the martyring of their brethren, that should be killed as they were. Which then means every time one of their brethren is martyred back on earth they join these resting in heaven, not sitting on thrones co ruling with Christ instead. IOW, this does not depict anyone sitting on thrones ruling with Christ in heaven---under the altar.

Is God unfair or something? These souls under the altar who have been martyred don't get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ as well, but are told to rest a little season instead, while Amils back on earth who are martyred during this little season, that instead of them joining the other martyrs resting when they enter heaven, they get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ? Even though sitting on thrones is not literal, that is beside the point since this shows God is not being fair here if some martyrs are told to rest and other martyrs get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ instead.

 

[Mr E]

I added nothing. It's what the Greek word means. In the long list of verses where it's found (see below), the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body:-

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

@ScottA Why has your theology taken it out?

Sorry.... I can see that this is a pet project for you, but it's nonsense.

God is spirit. God is záō. God is not alive in the body-- God is not a man, neither the son of man....

You qualify your supposition by saying- "the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body."

And you MUST qualify it like this, because you recognize that God is spirit, not human-- alive in a body.


There is however another way to recognize this fact, without qualification...

Though we are not stone, there is a small amount of stone in us.
Though we are not water, there is a small amount of water in us.
Though we are not God, we come into existence through the Spirit of God, and because of this- there is a small amount of God within us.

I am not stone, I am not water and I am not God.

Yet without all of these things-- I am not.


*There is the life of the body-- our lifespan. And there is the life that is "in" the body, which is spirit and spans both before and beyond the life "of" the body.

 

[rwb]

So if I have this correct, only martyred believers are seen reigning, the rest of the dead are unbelievers, and un-martyred believers are then mentioned as blessed if they have part in the first resurrection but are not included as the rest of the dead even though that word means the remaining part of the dead.

Those of vs 6 "blessed and holy" SHALL reign in the future. When John is writing they may or may not even be born yet, they certainly are not at this point in time part of those who have already lived and died as martyrs, before they are of the first resurrection to overcome the second death when they shall reign with Christ, they must be physically born alive on earth. Not only have they not yet physically died, there is no indication of when they shall be physically born so they may have part in the first resurrection and reign with Christ in time (a thousand years). John is merely saying the fullness of heaven does not come from only those who are martyred for their faith. The fullness of heaven shall be of all people who physically die in faith whether martyrs or not.

Revelation 7:9 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-15 (KJV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Then the unbelieving “rest of the dead” are said to live after the thousand years are finished in Revelation 20:5 but we know that they have to really not come to life on this earth but be resurrected after the little season.

GB, they are not resurrected to be alive on this earth after the thousand years AND Satan's little season. The dead are raised to physical life again to eternally die in the LOF that is the second death. They've already physically died once, so they shall be revived to life, or recover life, be alive again to eternally DIE and never live again.

RWB, these are the types of things that have made me abandon the Amill view, I’m good with Christ being the first resurrection and us currently living and reigning with Christ but for me there are too many other problems with making it fit into Revelation 20.

And we haven’t even begun to look at other verses such as Revelation 6:9-11 where the fifth seal martyrs are told to rest vs those in Revelation 20:4 who are priests and reigning, not resting.

I think if the word “beheaded” was seen as figurative some of the issues could be resolved but we each have to go with where the Spirit leads us.

I don't know if you cannot understand or if a preconceived belief keeps you from accepting what is written? Since the dead shall not be raised to life again until AFTER Satan's little season, and his little season does not come until AFTER the thousand years expire, can you really not understand the dead shall not live again until the thousand years have ended???

The only eschatological point of view that takes away contradiction and inconsistencies the other points of view force into Scripture, is Amillennialism. And it is the only doctrine that proves to be truth from the abundance of Scripture and not trying to use only one chapter Rev 20 to read their doctrine into the Word of God.

What difference would it make in what John has written if 'beheading' is figurative and not literal? If they have only been martyred figuratively, would they not still have lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (symbolized a thousand years) before their figurative death?

 

[grafted branch]

One thing that proves martyrs aren't co reigning in heaven with Christ sitting on thrones, is the following.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Common sense says that while they are resting a little season in heaven, a little season is happening on the earth involving the martyring of their brethren, that should be killed as they were. Which then means every time one of their brethren is martyred back on earth they join these resting in heaven, not sitting on thrones co ruling with Christ instead. IOW, this does not depict anyone sitting on thrones ruling with Christ in heaven---under the altar.

Is God unfair or something? These souls under the altar who have been martyred don't get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ as well, but are told to rest a little season instead, while Amils back on earth who are martyred during this little season, that instead of them joining the other martyrs resting when they enter heaven, they get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ? Even though sitting on thrones is not literal, that is beside the point since this shows God is not being fair here if some martyrs are told to rest and other martyrs get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ instead.

I agree it doesn’t make sense, and there is also Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Clearly there is a point where the dead rest and that rest continues from henceforth. I’m not sure what the Amill do with this verse, maybe they claim being a priest is not work.

 

[rwb]

One thing that proves martyrs aren't co reigning in heaven with Christ sitting on thrones, is the following.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Common sense says that while they are resting a little season in heaven, a little season is happening on the earth involving the martyring of their brethren, that should be killed as they were. Which then means every time one of their brethren is martyred back on earth they join these resting in heaven, not sitting on thrones co ruling with Christ instead. IOW, this does not depict anyone sitting on thrones ruling with Christ in heaven---under the altar.

Is God unfair or something? These souls under the altar who have been martyred don't get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ as well, but are told to rest a little season instead, while Amils back on earth who are martyred during this little season, that instead of them joining the other martyrs resting when they enter heaven, they get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ? Even though sitting on thrones is not literal, that is beside the point since this shows God is not being fair here if some martyrs are told to rest and other martyrs get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ instead.

Are these martyrs still under the altar since Christ's blood has been shed to make atonement for sin, and conquering death by His resurrection to life again? None could go to heaven until after the first advent of Christ. Which is why these Old Covenant faithful saints are shown under the altar, symbolizing they died in faith, believing the Law that pointed them to Christ, and the prophets who foretell of the Messiah/Redeemer would come to save them.

If they are not now in heaven, why does John write of martyrs for their faith who "have lived and reigned with Christ" before they were martyred now as souls alive in heaven? Their fellowservants were Israelites of faith, and their brethren is Christ, the promised Messiah who was to come. The little season they were told they must wait IMO is from the beginning of the ministry of Christ at His baptism when He was anointed through the Spirit, to His cross and resurrection. Then before Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, He first descended into the place of the dead to set the captives free, taking them with Him to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

evelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What are the white robes given unto them? Is it not the Fruit of God, the New man they put on? What else are “white robes were given unto them”?

We say they “souls” are under an altar literally…painting a sad desperate situation but Paul also waited that others should “rule” also. Saying “I pray to God you do rule so we also rule with you” The word teaches of seasons..and what is a little season …if need be for a little season…
1 Peter 1:6-10 Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, you love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, you rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. [10] Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

You mention those “souls” waiting under the altar …1 Corinthians 9:13 Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
They that wait at the altar … “those souls waiting” and “white robes were given unto them” …the literal picture is sad and bleak of souls kept under the altar crying “avenge us” …Paul cried often “deliver us Lord” …”avenge” …Even Christ sighed “how long must I be with you?”
2 Corinthians 1:3-10 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; [4] Who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.(is this why “white robes were given unto them”? The New man to put on?) [5] For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abound by Christ. [6] And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. [7] And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so shall you be also of the consolation. [8] For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: [9] But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: [10] Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
“they (those souls) which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?”