PAST-Millennialism

[PinSeeker]

Revelation 19 doesn't mention the millennium at all.

It doesn't, but that's because the focus of Revelation 19... particularly verses 11-21... is different than Revelation 20 (and the first eight verses of Revelation 21). But here is the problem for so many in reading Revelation: not all the events of Revelation 20 are chronologically subsequent (take place after) the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. Even Revelation 19 itself is not strictly chronological. As I've said many times now in exchanges with several posters here, the events of Revelation 19:11-21 should be seen as concurrent ~ basically, they are the same events, but the focus is slightly different ~ with the events described in Revelation 20:7-10.

Now, before you "fire back" and tell me how wrong I am, I suggest you do what you said you would do... look at this honestly. Ponder it in your heart. You may eventually come to the same conclusions you hold to now, and that's... okay. :) But you may... change your mind... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Mr E]

Hi there, I see you are from my home state SC.

Pop poll for you and @Earburner

Haley? -Or Trump?

 

[3 Resurrections]

But here is the problem for so many in reading Revelation: not all the events of Revelation 20 are chronologically subsequent (take place after) the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. Even Revelation 19 itself is not strictly chronological. As I've said many times now in exchanges with several posters here, the events of Revelation 19:11-21 should be seen as concurrent ~ basically, they are the same events, but the focus is slightly different ~ with the events described in Revelation 20:7-10.

Oh, I don't need to "fire back", because I agree with all of this that you posted above. It doesn't contradict the position I hold at all. I heard someone one time describe the events of Revelation 19:11-21 as the battle with Christ from the Beasts' perspectives, while the events of Revelation 20:7-10 are the same battle from Satan's perspective. Just repeated from different focus points, as you said above.

And those battle events from both focus points were AFTER the millennium had expired (back in AD 33).

Pop poll for you and @Earburner

Haley? -Or Trump?

We recognize Haley around here as a genuine Democrat. Unfortunately, the open primary system in SC is set up for Democrats to be allowed to artificially flood the Republican primary with their votes for Haley. Nasty.

 

[Davidpt]

I heard someone one time describe the events of Revelation 19:11-21 as the battle with Christ from the Beasts' perspectives, while the events of Revelation 20:7-10 are the same battle from Satan's perspective. Just repeated from different focus points, as you said above.

That's a possibility, I guess. Yet, it still doesn't help your position one way or the other, regardless.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Anyone that has read the book of Revelation surely can't deny that their martyrdom was the result of what is recorded in Revelation 13, for one. Which obviously means they can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the time involving Revelation 13 arrives first, and that they are then martyred during that particular era of time.

No one tha I know of, unless you are an exeption here, would apply the events pertaining to Revelation 13 to be meaning prior to 33 AD rather than after. How then can anyone already be reigning with Christ a thousand years prior to 33 AD when the events involving Revelation 13 can't fit prior to 33 AD?

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Do or don't these same martyrs do the following? and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[PinSeeker]

Pop poll for 3 Resurrections and Earburner

​

Haley? -Or Trump?

LOL!!!

 

[PinSeeker]

Oh, I don't need to "fire back", because I agree with all of this that you posted above. It doesn't contradict the position I hold at all. I heard someone one time describe the events of Revelation 19:11-21 as the battle with Christ from the Beasts' perspectives, while the events of Revelation 20:7-10 are the same battle from Satan's perspective. Just repeated from different focus points, as you said above.

Hmm, well, I would disagree regarding Satan's perspective, but good.

And those battle events from both focus points were AFTER the millennium had expired (back in AD 33).

Well, I say after the millennium does come to an end, because it has not... yet. :) But we may be very, very close to it coming to an end. We'll agree to disagree on that... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Mr E]

LOL!!!

Go straight to the source. South Carolinians know her best and see her for what she is.....

But completely off topic in a terrific threads. Apologies to new member @3 Resurrections for the interruption.

But why only 3? The story goes on and on and on.....

 

[3 Resurrections]

Anyone that has read the book of Revelation surely can't deny that their martyrdom was the result of what is recorded in Revelation 13, for one. Which obviously means they can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the time involving Revelation 13 arrives first, and that they are then martyred during that particular era of time.

No one tha I know of, unless you are an exeption here, would apply the events pertaining to Revelation 13 to be meaning prior to 33 AD rather than after.

Then I am that exception. And I am not the only one that sees scripture teaching the Revelation 13 Sea Beast to be past history, coming into existence long before AD33.

The Sea Beast in Rev. 13:2 had all the features of Daniel's three former kingdoms represented by the lion, the bear, and the leopard (Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek empires respectively). That meant the Sea Beast's conglomerate biography dated from the oldest Babylonian empire led by King Nebuchadnezzar. This Sea Beast was a combined mix of all the pagan empires which had held control over the nation of Israel almost continuously, ever since they first went into exile under Nebuchadnezzar. And it also included the final Roman phase as a depiction of Daniel's 4th "great and dreadful" empire from Daniel 7:7 with its great iron teeth.

When John was writing Revelation, he told his audience to "calculate" that number of the beast. They were meant to count backward in time 666 YEARS from the time John was writing Revelation (somewhere between late AD 59 and no later than early AD 60. All the internal evidence within Revelation itself points to this composition date).

The year when Nebuchadnezzar led the first deportation of the Jewish nobility from Jerusalem was 666 YEARS before John was writing Revelation. This 666 YEARS began in 607 BC, well into the millennium years which ran from 968/967 BC until AD 33. There were plenty of millennium martyrs which were killed and those who provided a witness of the coming Messiah during these ancient times when Israel was subjugated to these varied pagan empires. The surge in the number of major and minor prophets took place during these millennium years, many if not most of whom were martyred by the Jerusalem authorities. This surge in the millennial period's prophetic ministry was another means of binding Satan's deception of the nations.

We can also prove from historical records that the Rev. 13 Sea Beast's last phase of existence was ancient Rome. We know that the Dragon in Rev. 13:2 gave his own throne to the Sea Beast, along with great authority. That throne of Satan the Dragon was in the city of Pergamos, according to Rev. 2:13. And from historical records of the Roman Senate, we know that the entire kingdom of Pergamos as well as Satan's throne in that city was bequeathed to the Roman Republic in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus III. This king had no living heir to whom he could pass the Pergamum kingdom, so in his will he turned it all over to his ally, the Roman Republic. This identifies the last phase of the Sea Beast's existence as being ancient Rome - not in our future at all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But why only 3? The story goes on and on and on.....

Are you asking "Why only 3 resurrections?"? There are exactly three separate group resurrection events because these three "harvests" of the saints' bodies out of the ground would be a fulfillment of the symbolism in the Mosaic harvest festivals. Attendance was required at the three feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Two of these group "harvests" of the saints' bodies out of the ground have already happened - with the "first resurrection" at Passover in AD 33 (Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 "First-fruits" saints which numbered 144,000 from Jewish tribes). Next, there was a much larger resurrection event at Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day (the 1,335th day predicted by Daniel 12:11-13, and the resurrection which Paul told Felix was "about to be" in his generation).

That leaves only one "harvest" feast type yet to be fulfilled in our future - the largest and most varied group resurrection event at the time of year the Feast of Tabernacles would have been celebrated under Mosaic law. That's the reason why Zechariah 14:16-19 mentions only this single FOT to be remembered from "year to year" after Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14:4-5. Zechariah was giving us a "save-the-date" reminder.

 

[Ghada]

:) Is this all you have to say in response to the passages I cited?

Read what followed.

Ah! Well, good question, but I would answer it with a question. Two questions, actually: 1) How is it possible anyone to repent of his/her sins when he/she is dead in his/her sins?

It's only a fair question for ungrounded philosophic theology.


All men and women created in the image of God are given power of will to do good or evil, and likewise to repent.

Any thief can repent of thieving. Any liar can repent of lying. Sugar lovers can repent of eating sugar. Drunkards can repent of drinking.

The commandment of God for all men everywhere to, is proof sinful man can repent.

And 2.) Is not our repentance ~ true repentance ~ really a work of the Spirit?

Man's own repentance is for a corruptible crown of our own purposes, whether for health, family, business, civil order, etc...

Only obedience to God's command to repent of all sinning for Jesus' sake, is man repenting according to His will and not our own.

We change our deeds and ways, and God changes the heart and life by His Spirit.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God grants His commanded full repentance unto salvation. Man's own limited repentance unto a better life on earth, is not unto God's salvation and eternal life.

Answers: 1) He/She will not, indeed cannot, because he/she is dead in his/her sin,

This is unbelief in being created in God's image with power to do good or evil, and to repent of evil. It's also a lie against God's commandment to all men, as being impossible for any men to obey.

This unbelief and lie is from an hardened heart of unrepentance.

As Paul says in Romans 2, it is indeed God’s kindness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). So yes, it is our repentance, but it's God's kindness and the work of His Spirit in our hearts that brings this about.

At once and of all sins and trespasses. God's longsuffering includes man's own repentance of His own purposes at his own will and leisure.

His longsuffering kindness only bears fruit of the Spirit with them that do His commanded will to repent His way, and not after our own manner and time.

And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

God's repentance unto salvation is granted only to them that obey His command of unconditional and complete surrender at once.

God only suffers fools demanding a conditional surrender on their own terms, for a season on earth.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

That season can end in this life with reprobation, but all such longsuffering space to repent God's way ends in the grave.

 

[PinSeeker]

Go straight to the source. South Carolinians know her best and see her for what she is.....

But completely off topic in a terrific threads. Apologies to new member @3 Resurrections for the interruption.

But why only 3? The story goes on and on and on.....

One of my favorites...

Man, Bono looks so young, there...

 

[Ghada]

No, because it supposes that our being born again can somehow be deserved by works,

The accusation of repenting of dead works as commanded by God, as being man saving himself, is just another self-justifying tired old accusation against God by unrepented transgressors.

Man repenting partially for his own corruptible crown is man's works, that have no virtue with God unto Jesus' salvation.

Man repenting as commanded from all sins for God's incorruptible crown of life, is the beginning of virtue and saving faith of Jesus.

By repenting of our old works, we become dead to them. Doing so for Jesus' sake becomes a newborn son of God, who God makes alive by His Spirit of grace, unto His righteous and holy living.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

in refutation of what Paul says in Romans 9, specifically verse 16, that being one of God's elect "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Which is man's own repentance by his own power of will, and in his own time, whether for religion, career, good citizenry, health, etc...

Man's limited repentance is unworthy of Jesus Christ. Any man anywhere repenting God's commanded way for Jesus' sake, is worthy of Jesus' faith and salvation.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works which man has done without Christ, including one's own form of repentance, is not by God's commanded will, nor is granted unto His promised gospel of deliverance from all old sins and trespasses.

 

[Ghada]

Precisely the opposite.

This is peculiar, and perhaps something new to add to the mix of man's own unconditional salvation.

There are no unrepented heard-hearted sinners? In the Bible, all unrepentance is by a hardened heart and stiff neck.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Or, is it just unrepented 'Christians', that are not hard-hearted and stiff-necked? Are unrepented Christians somehow 'soft-hearted' in their unrepentance?

Unrepented Christian sinners don't mind being called unrepented nor sinners, but just object to being judged with the world as hardened and ungodly?

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Salvation is of the Lord.

Trure. And His salvation is first by commandant to repent of sinning unto His salvation.

Another lord and god's salvation is first by believing it alone, while unrepented from sinning.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The righteous Lord's salvation is by repentance from all sinning for His sake.

The unrighteous god's salvation is by believing it for one's own sake, without repenting of all sinning.

It is He ~ the Father willing, the Son, making it possible, and the Spirit working it in us ~ Who

The Spirit and power of the holy God is only working in them, that do obey Him and repent of sinning for His sake.

He is now working in a new heart and life of Christ, to do the same as Jesus and please the Father at all times.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

... well, it can't be said better than Paul:

"...being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~

Unrepented sinners and trespassers are not dead to their sinning and trespassing. Only them repented of all their dead works, are dead to their sins that are past.

The unrighteous gospel without repentance, seeks to save the unrepented sinners together with the repented saints. They seek to harmonize workers of iniquity with doer of righteousness as being together 'in Christ'.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Only the doers of righteousness are in Christ Jesus. The doers of unrighteousness can only be in another Christ of their own choosing.

And Paul is drawing here directly from what God says through the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 11 and 36:

• "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Which of course skips repentance first, as does your gospel and christ.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

• 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel 11:19-20).

Unrepented disobedient sinners are not obeying the true God, but only the god of this world.

They still have their old heart of lust, because they have not repented to cast away their old deeds of trasngression.

 

[Ghada]

Right, in Him (as I said), over all nations.

Are you a national ruler? What's your name and nation?

Otherwise, you're not over any nation, much less all of them. No man, nor I, nor the Lord Jesus calls you one either.

The Bible never says His prophets and apostles and saints are given any rule nor power over nations at this time. There were kings of Israel over their own nation, and there were saints with power over nations granted by the Pharaoh and king, but other than the kings of Israel and Judea, there are none ruling over any nation at this time.

We are only given commandment to prophecy and preach the rule of Christ, and pray for them. Only with the Lord ruling over all nations, will His resurrected saints be given power to do so with Him.

This 'spirit-only' rule over nations is a fabled illusion of grandeur. Some Buddhist claim it, as well as some really spiritual self-important Christians.

It is also an insult to the Lord God and King prophesied to inherit and rule over all nations, who will in that day rule with power to execute His law at will over any transgressor. And He will do it justly and speedily.

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Anti-Bible millennialists preach a native religion kind of millennium, like the great Spirit in sky, who never comes down to actually rule over all the earth. Unjust rulers still remain doing evil over others without cause. In the Lord's Bible Millennium, no such evil rulers will be left unpunished for a single moment after doing so

Your 'spiritual' rule over nations is a millennium of your own mind only, and portraying the Lord's prophesied rule the same as yours, is a mockery of His Millennium kingdom and Kingship physically over all nations.

 

[PinSeeker]

Read what followed.

I did. :)

It's only a fair question for ungrounded philosophic theology.

...in your opinion. I understand. And you think I don't, I guess; I'm perfectly fine with that. :)

All men and women created in the image of God are given power of will to do good or evil, and likewise to repent.

Ah, free will... No one denies we have free will, Ghada. No one. But it's not about the will... not initially, anyway. So to your "ungrounded philosophic theology" comment, that kind of boomerangs on you here, but I wouldn't call yours "ungrounded" or "philosophic," per se, but rather... well, respectfully, short-sighted.

Any thief can repent of thieving. Any liar can repent of lying. Sugar lovers can repent of eating sugar. Drunkards can repent of drinking.

Hmmm... well this seems a rather short-sighted view of sin itself. At least on its face it is, but whether yours really is or not... there would have to be a little deeper dig here.

The commandment of God for all men everywhere to, is proof sinful man can repent.

Sure. But still, it depends on whether one is of his father the devil or not as to whether he or she ~ of his or her own free will ~ will or not... Nicodemus. :)

Man's own repentance is for a corruptible crown of our own purposes, whether for health, family, business, civil order, etc...

If you're saying here that any repentance man works up or manufactures in and of himself/herself is sinful, I agree.

Only obedience to God's command to repent of all sinning for Jesus' sake, is man repenting according to His will and not our own.

Well, agreed, sure. If you think I'm denying this, you're very mistaken.

We change our deeds and ways, and God changes the heart and life by His Spirit.

This is the very inverse of what is correct. Our changing our deeds and ways is a result of God's "changing the heart and life by His Spirit" (I don't really have any issue with the wording there, I'm just quoting you). But again:

As God says to the Israelites through Ezekiel (36:25-27),"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

And Paul draws directly from Ezekiel's words when He writes to the Ephesians (2:4-10), "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

And again, a couple of other quotes from the apostle Paul: He exhorts us to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13; certainly, we will and work of our own free accord, but for those born again of the Spirit, our willing and working according to His pleasure, including true repentance of/from sin, is because of His work in us)... and this is just a few sentences after he has said, "He who began a good work in (us) will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

The crux of the matter is, if the heart is changed for the better ~ if we are made alive to God, and placed in Christ, and given the Spirit, the will inevitably changes for the good.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Great words, to be sure. Thanks be to God.

God grants His commanded full repentance unto salvation. Man's own limited repentance unto a better life on earth, is not unto God's salvation and eternal life.

If you're saying here that God's mercy and compassion, and His salvific grace to us, once given, demands our living unto Him, then I totally agree.

This is unbelief in being created in God's image with power to do good or evil, and to repent of evil. It's also a lie against God's commandment to all men, as being impossible for any men to obey. This unbelief and lie is from an hardened heart of unrepentance.

No, you misunderstand. See above.

At once and of all sins and trespasses...

I say, Ghada, that the Christian life is one of continual repentance. Do you believe that you no longer sin? Because John has a few words that you might remember. See 1 John 1:8-10 ~ "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ghada]

Right, well, that's our part ~ those resurrected to eternal life,

Whose part is to repent of all our sinning first, whether Jew or Greek.

as opposed to those resurrected to judgment ~

Whose part is not repenting of all their sinning, whether religious or not.

in the second resurrection, where our spirit is reunited with our physical body.

The first resurrection is of the body of Christ into the air at His return.

There is no 'second' resurrection in the Bible, other than the rest of the dead raised to judgment by works.

As with your gospel for unrepented sinners, so is your prophecy of a 'second' resurrection of the dead: Not Bible.

As Paul says to the Philippians (and by extension to us), we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

We work out our own obedience to God, to endure temptation as His Son, without sinning.

God's sons are not still 'work out' their own repentance from their old dead works in their own good time.

That's man's progressive religion, not God's pure religion.

Man's religion keeps unrepented sinners from sinning as much as before. God's religion keeps His sons from all the old sinning.

 

[Ghada]

Hm, well, thanks be to God, I am not unrepentant,

So, here we have the new thing. The one still doing unrepented sinning, is not unrepentant.

So, there is another kind of repentance, that does not include repenting?

Or is not repenting of all sinning? Or is repenting in mind, but not yet in works?

And here we have the adjunct preaching of still sinning, but not condemned for it. Still unrepented in works, but repented in mind.

Glorious. Thanks. It's man repenting of all sin in the mind, but just not yet repented of all sinful works in life.

And so, we have the full gospel of salvation for unrepented workers of iniquity: Still unrepentant in deeds, but not unrepented in mind!

Just as still sinning in deeds, but not condemned in spirit!

Halleluiah!

but you misunderstand, making complete what is now counted as complete by God but is still yet to be complete but surely will be.

Right. Repented of all sinning in mind, and in due time, shall be repented of all sinning in works. Got it.

However, why then don't you also preach the sure gospel of ever repenting from all sinful works, and creasing from all sinning by works?

Why do your own preachers declare it impossible to cease from actually sinning in life, even though you claim to in mind and spirit??

The only progressive sanctification from dead works, that I have ever heard preached, is ever-progressive, but never fully complete in this life. You preach differently? You say you can be sure of ceasing from sinning in spirit and in life on earth?

The Bible does preach we can make our salvation sure by never falling. But that is only for them who obey the gospel commandment to repent of all sinning first.

Are you preaching a gospel of being saved by faith first, with whole-minded repentance, followed by a surely progressive repentance from all sinful deeds in this life?

If so, I would like to here more of it in detail with Bible confirmation.

We call this the now-and-not-yet of the Gospel,

Oh yes!! Perfectly called!

Now wholly saved in spirit and-not-yet fully saved in life. Now wholly repented in mind and-not-yet fully repented in life.

Beautiful. Couldn't have labeled it better myself. Thanks again.

So, once again, an honest question: Does this gospel you preach ever end in this life, with fully repented and saved from all sinful works?

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

The end of God's commanded repentance from all our sins and trespasses, is a whole and holy new heart and life as promised with His new covenant in Christ Jesus.

He says now at once. Do you say now in spirit, but only at one time progressively before the grave?

 

[Ghada]

It is not so hard to grasp, this thing of, for us believers, in this life, having been saved and being saved at the same time.

Not at all hard to grasp. It is the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ: Having been saved from all sinning by God's granted repentance from all sins and trespasses, and still being saved from all transgressions, to sin no more and only please God.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

What is hard to believe (without persuasive pretty speeches) is unrepented workers of iniquity having been saved from any condemnation and being saved from any condemnation at the same time as still sinning and trespassing against the Lord Jesus and holy Father.

It's easy to understand by being wise as a serpent, but it does take certain persuasion from other unrepented sinners, that have swallowed it whole in heart, mind, spirit, and practice.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely be condemned: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It's the real eye-opener for them that repent not, to believe they are as gods themselves, now knowing they can do both good and evil, and at the same time be called 'sons of God', by their fellow faithful workers of iniquity.

Just not by the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

I would ask this: Do you think Paul, in view of what he says of Himself in many places but particularly in Romans 7...

At last, the double-hearted unholy man, to justify double hearted disciples.

Romans 7 is both present vs past, with the present in vs 1-6:

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

And the past being in vs 7-23.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The unrepented sinful hearers, that seek to justify not now doing the word, try to make the past and the present the same. Which is for the express purpose of making present repented saints just the same as old unrepented sinners, and vica versa.

They just never make any mention of the present vs 1-6, but only lump everyone together in their comfort zone of vs 7-23 for life.

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."

And, of course, not content with dragging the apostle back to his old past to still be one of them, they must also make him the worst of all, even worse than themselves.

And so, the chiefest of your apostles for your gospel, are those that repent in mind the most, but in works the least. They continue sinning the most in works, while believing they repent the most in mind and in spirit.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

More questions for you:

If repenting in mind now-and-not-yet in all deeds, does have a sure way of progression to repent from all works of iniquity... Then why is the foremost apostle of your faith, openly declare how he himself repents least in deeds and works??

For I would that all men were even as I myself.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

You certainly cannot follow him in being the worst worker of unrighteousness? Right? That is, if you do believe in being sure to progressively becoming foremost in works of righteousness??

Either your apostle does not teach such sure progressiveness unto all righteousness (or at least not to himself), or you must reject him as being as he is himself. Right?

However, I can see how that would make him the greatest 'not-yet' example, since his 'not-yet' example remains farthest way from ever being now.

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

..., to at the time he wrote those things have been still an unrepentant sinner? Surely not.

Not at all. Not by his and your gospel. Only unrepented sinners in mind as well as in sinful deed, are unrepented sinners. Repented sinners in mind and-not-yet in deed, are indeed repented sinners, not unrepented sinners.

It makes perfect sense. Them repented in mind, if not-yet in deed, are not 'unrepented' sinners, but repented sinners. Just as being spiritually pure in mind, if not-yet in deed. They are not unrepented carnal sinners, but repented spiritual sinners.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Believe me. I get it perfectly. I really do take time to exactly understand what other gospels are being preached, and exactly where their preachers are coming from, both in spirit and in deed.

"Oh Babylon!! How truly great are thy mysteries! Thou that bringest forth many unrepented children of disobedience into they motherly train! There is no god nor goddess beside thee so great in thy whoredoms! Who like thee can so abundantly justify the unrepented wicked together with the repented saints!"

Actually, all her unrepented children justify accusing the repented saints, as just a bunch of self-righteous and really mean condemners of repented sinners, that just are not-yet repented in deeds. But give it time, because they sure are getting there. (Unlike their own favorite apostle not-yet good example of course...)

But. it's nothing new. It's as old as Cain having nice little talk with his self-righteous little brother Abel.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[PinSeeker]

The accusation of repenting of dead works as commanded by God, as being man saving himself...

Is a misunderstanding. Wow.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ah, Ezekiel 18:30-32... So often misconstrued... Here, repentance is not being urged on Jerusalem, for the preceding chapters affirm that its destruction is assured. Rather, the exiles are pressed to repent and take responsibility for their moral lives. Thus, the appeal is to "make yourselves a new heart and spirit," in contrast with Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 36:26 (both of which I have quoted here; see above), where these are the gift of God. The restatement of God's displeasure in anyone's death is the basis for the final entreaty to "turn and live."

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Curious that you keep quoting John here but then proceed to turn what he says on its ear...

Are you a national ruler? What's your name and nation?

LOL!

Otherwise, you're not over any nation, much less all of them. No man, nor I, nor the Lord Jesus calls you one either.

The Bible never says His prophets and apostles and saints are given any rule nor power over nations at this time.... Your 'spiritual' rule over nations is a millennium of your own mind only, and portraying the Lord's prophesied rule the same as yours, is a mockery of His Millennium kingdom and Kingship physically over all nations.

Again... you misunderstand. Wow.

The first resurrection is of the body of Christ into the air at His return.

The fact that there is a first strongly implies that there is a second; otherwise it be called just "the resurrection." And as there is a first and second death, there is also a first and second resurrection.

There is no 'second' resurrection in the Bible, other than the rest of the dead raised to judgment by works.

Right, well, that is the second. LOL! And the nature and scope of the second differs (to put it mildly) from the first.

We work out our own obedience to God, to endure temptation as His Son...

Yes, and we can confidently do so, because it is God Who works in us to make this a reality. Though, in this life, we still fall short from time to time, but again, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

...without sinning. God's sons are not still 'work out' their own repentance from their old dead works in their own good time. That's man's progressive religion, not God's pure religion. Man's religion keeps unrepented sinners from sinning as much as before. God's religion keeps His sons from all the old sinning.

And I ask again, are you without sin now, Ghada? Do you think you sin no longer, and confession and repentance are no longer needed for you?

The only progressive sanctification from dead works, that I have ever heard preached, is ever-progressive, but never fully complete in this life. You preach differently? You say you can be sure of ceasing from sinning in spirit and in life on earth?

Well, Ghada, if I understand you correctly here, the answer to both your questions to me here are no. I agree with the first sentence here; it seems to be exactly what I have been saying. What we can be sure of, in our confessing and repenting, is forgiveness; God is faithful and just to forgive.

The Bible does preach we can make our salvation sure by never falling.

It assuredly does not. If we could keep from failing, Ghada, we would never have been in need of salvation in the first place. Just on it's face; this is true: if it were possible for us to keep God's Law perfectly and never sin, we could save ourselves. But, as Jesus said:

• "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).
• "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God" (Mark 10:27).
• “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).

Now wholly saved in spirit and-not-yet fully saved in life.

Right.

Now wholly repented in mind and-not-yet fully repented in life.

If you are fully repented in mind, Ghada, then why do you keep thinking ~ and doing ~ at least from time to time, Ghada... <chuckles> ...sinful things? I ask again... yes, I'm fully aware that you asked a question or two of me, but as long as you keep avoiding answering me, your questions will go unanswered... do you believe that you no longer sin? That you are perfectly holy now, just like Jesus now, and no longer in need of repentance and forgiveness? I... hope not...

The unrepented sinful hearers, that seek to justify not now doing the word...

Unrepentant sinners, Ghada, don't seek to justify anything of the sort, because they think no justification is needed. Indeed, they think the whole idea of needing to be justified, along with the Gospel, is foolishness.

What is hard to believe (without persuasive pretty speeches) is unrepented workers of iniquity having been saved from any condemnation and being saved from any condemnation at the same time as still sinning and trespassing against the Lord Jesus and holy Father.

Here, Ghada, you confuse condemnation with consequence. Consequences for us in this life include discipline (God certainly disciplines those He loves) and even judgments; God certainly, in His grace and love ~ although it certainly may not seem to us to be graceful or loving, but it is ~ disciplines us and even places judgments on us… as any loving father would/should. But even so, there is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (which are Paul's exact words in Romans 8:1). This does not then mean that there are no consequences administered by God for sin; believing it does mean that is the heresy of antinomianism.

What is hard to believe (without persuasive pretty speeches) is unrepented workers of iniquity having been saved from any condemnation and being saved from any condemnation at the same time as still sinning and trespassing against the Lord Jesus and holy Father.

Again, you confuse condemnation with consequence.

As with John's words above, you're turning what Paul says in Romans 7 and 1 Timothy 1 on it's ear. I would encourage you not to do that, or at least to study them again. :) And again, and again, and again, if that's what it takes. God's Word is living and formative, and true, of course, breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. God be with you.

all her unrepented children justify accusing the repented saints, as just a bunch of self-righteous mean condemners.

I'm... not sure who you think is doing this. It seems to me you're doing all the self-righteous mean-spirited condemning here... Like I said, God be with you.

Grace and peace to you, Ghada.